A rational approach to depression, addiction, etc?

[Aimless]

Oh, I see now.

Internet addiction is not real, it's a made-up thing because it didn't exist 20 years ago.

Never mind that the internet as we know it didn't really exist 20 years ago

All these new-fangled addictions

[Aimless]

EDIT to munch---that abdominal fluid is called ascites. Look it up. Now, I'm not going to second-guess your physicians, but everything you describe sounds like cirrhosis and its secondary problems.

It's OT, but it can also be a feature of acute (or acute-on-chronic) pancreatitis. Cirrhosis is a gentler creature but OT

[Nessus]

Beating kids can't be bad, it's been done for centuries, it's a new-fangled flight of fancy that children need care and affection

Did you know it was a bunch of psychologists who said you shouldn't beat kids, but hug them instead? What a load of wash.

Wait, what?

[GGT]

I'm wondering if her attitude may become more prevalent over time, as health care expenses grow as they have. In other words, suspicion or doubt about the validity of medical conditions that come with a price tag. Especially when more people can't buy insurance, or insurance doesn't pay for all their needs---even partial needs. That tends to lead toward a weird Scrooge paradox from the patient, and they end up doubting the need for outpatient care or therapies. (They're just trying to get more money out of me, or out of the tax payer, the whole thing is rigged.)

[Aimless]

But on the other hand, why do I want to make Munch take on society's burden of addiction? She's got enough on her plate as it is without having to constantly adjust to the changing times, and it's not like she feels like an integral part of her greater society. Maybe this is all very unfair.

[GGT]

It's OT, but it can also be a feature of acute (or acute-on-chronic) pancreatitis. Cirrhosis is a gentler creature but OT

It's fairly rare that ascites is just from a pancreatic problem. You know that. OT

[GGT]

But on the other hand, why do I want to make Munch take on society's burden of addiction? She's got enough on her plate as it is without having to constantly adjust to the changing times, and it's not like she feels like an integral part of her greater society. Maybe this is all very unfair.

What? This whole thread isn't boiled down to just munchkin. Whatever made you think it did?

[Aimless]

It's fairly rare that ascites is just from a pancreatic problem. You know that.

Yes, and I also know what severe acute necrotizing pancreatitis (and its cousins) can look like, and what sepsis looks like, and I and pretty much everyone else in healthcare know what cirrhosis looks like. If that was the main cause of her sudden ascites and edema and transfer to the ICU then it's unfortunate that they didn't mention it given that cirrhosis is both easy and important to diagnose. I'm not saying you're wrong, and it's reasonable to assume that it might be a problem in her case. I just wanted to say that you can beat on Munchkin for her drinking even without invoking cirrhosis. Should you wish to or you can start a thread on the Case of the Sloshy Munchkin, if it's okay with her.

[GGT]

Yes, and I also know what severe acute necrotizing pancreatitis (and its cousins) can look like, and what sepsis looks like, and I and pretty much everyone else in healthcare know what cirrhosis looks like. If that was the main cause of her sudden ascites and edema and transfer to the ICU then it's unfortunate that they didn't mention it given that cirrhosis is both easy and important to diagnose. I'm not saying you're wrong, and it's reasonable to assume that it might be a problem in her case. I just wanted to say that you can beat on Munchkin for her drinking even without invoking cirrhosis. Should you wish to or you can start a thread on the Case of the Sloshy Munchkin, if it's okay with her.

I'm not going to argue with you or munchie, or her doctors. But her ascites wasn't as sudden as you or she presume. munch and I have been communicating for a long time, and her symptoms of weight loss and GI problems, along with her lifestyle of

oh fuck it, never mind. I don't BEAT ON MUNCHKIN but have only tried to help her as a friend. You only know what you've seen, but nothing of what you haven't.

We are all glad she received treatment and care.

[Aimless]

You only know what you've seen, but nothing of what you haven't.

Of course, I'm not a spiritualist or a conspiracy theorist or something I went by Mnchkin's description of suddenly gaining 25 pounds and ballooning up while at the hospital. All of this is quite inappropriate and I'm not sure what it has to do with the preceding discussion.

[GGT]

Of course, I'm not a spiritualist or a conspiracy theorist or something I went by Mnchkin's description of suddenly gaining 25 pounds and ballooning up while at the hospital. All of this is quite inappropriate and I'm not sure what it has to do with the preceding discussion.

This has nothing to do with conspiracy or spiritualism, and posts don't always convey what's been going on in the background for months or years.

But by all means, continue with what you think is appropriate in your thread about rational approaches to addiction or depression. ETC.

[Aimless]

Actually I was talking about whether or not it's appropriate for two busybodies to discuss another person's life and dramatic medical experiences like this.

[GGT]

Actually I was talking about whether or not it's appropriate for two busybodies to discuss another person's life and dramatic medical experiences like this.

She can speak for herself, and she has shared plenty of details that anyone can comment on. If you're trying to feign sudden conflict that you know more than you're comfortable knowing and commenting on....well, this isn't some case study.

Others have shared just as much about addictions or mental illnesses (and physical ramifications) in their personal lives. If it makes you feel better to have explicit consent, then I give you mine. Have at it, Dr. Minx.

[Aimless]

Former nurse, stop letting your personal and private issues ruin things for everyone. It doesn't work any better online than you imagined/pretended it did in real life. If you can't be personal and sincere without also being private then you should look into that, without dragging me into it. If you must, use a therapist, use your friends, use your family, cross their boundaries, test their patience and their goodwill with your snarky passive-aggressive jibes, disregard their feelings and their integrity and their desire to not be pushed to the point of douchiness, and leave me alone. I can't put it any clearer than that. Give it a rest.

[GGT]

Former nurse, stop letting your personal and private issues ruin things for everyone. It doesn't work any better online than you imagined/pretended it did in real life. If you can't be personal and sincere without also being private then you should look into that, without dragging me into it. If you must, use a therapist, use your friends, use your family, cross their boundaries, test their patience and their goodwill with your snarky passive-aggressive jibes, disregard their feelings and their integrity and their desire to not be pushed to the point of douchiness, and leave me alone. I can't put it any clearer than that. Give it a rest.

What has been "ruined" here? Seriously, what has been RUINED for everyone?

I've been personal and sincere, private when necessary. You started this thread, remember? Now you want to be left alone, by calling me snarky and passive-aggressive? Nope, it doesn't work that way.

I gave you my explicit consent, to ask me any questions about addiction or depression, from my own perspective and experience. That would RUIN things for everyone? Then you tell me to leave you alone because of douchiness?

[oldmunchkin]

This is ridiculous. Exercise addiction is real and can be very dangerous, sex-addiction is real and can severely hamper a person's ability to have a normal life, ditto for internet-addiction, and so very much more so for alcohol and cigarettes. What on earth are you on that makes you insist (once again!) that we should lend more weight to your anecdotes and your impressions than to the real world? It's like you're saying, Munchkin counts, other people don't. Only Munchkin's experiences pertaining to addiction count, other people's don't. Only Munchkin's ideas count, other people's don't--especially not those of psychiatrists, because they're just out to steal people's money and all these addictions annoy Munchkin, but then again Munchkin is annoyed by so many things.

PS. Did you know that mind = brain = body?

PSPS. Did you know that you are, for some reason, defining an addiction as something no addict can break on his own? Ie. that if someone can break out of it, it's not an addiction? Or, put another way, if Munchkin fancies herself able to break out of it--or has seen someone she likes break out of it--it doesn't count as a really real addiction? Jesus, that is not okay.

Oh, I see now.

Internet addiction is not real, it's a made-up thing because it didn't exist 20 years ago.

Never mind that the internet as we know it didn't really exist 20 years ago

All these new-fangled addictions

What I am saying is...an addiction is a medical problem in that the drug of choice, when abused, changes brain chemistry! Things that are not ingested can't cause this same change, because they are not ingested into the body! Maybe you think internet addiction or sex addiction are real addictions. I don't happen to agree with you.

I'm wondering if her attitude may become more prevalent over time, as health care expenses grow as they have. In other words, suspicion or doubt about the validity of medical conditions that come with a price tag. Especially when more people can't buy insurance, or insurance doesn't pay for all their needs---even partial needs. That tends to lead toward a weird Scrooge paradox from the patient, and they end up doubting the need for outpatient care or therapies. (They're just trying to get more money out of me, or out of the tax payer, the whole thing is rigged.)

Think back 20 years. It cost maybe $30 for an office visit with your local MD. A hospital room cost closer to $150 a day than $1500 a day. So yeah, maybe that's part of my beef with everything being labeled an addiction. Hell, am I addicted to wearing black t-shirts? Or maybe I am addicted to cran-apple juice? Or watching TV? Or taking a shower? See how ridiculous it becomes when you can just make up an addiction to fit the person sitting in the room with you?

But on the other hand, why do I want to make Munch take on society's burden of addiction? She's got enough on her plate as it is without having to constantly adjust to the changing times, and it's not like she feels like an integral part of her greater society. Maybe this is all very unfair.

What is unfair?

It's fairly rare that ascites is just from a pancreatic problem. You know that. OT

According to the doctors, my liver is functioning normally! It appears it's just the pancreas that is giving me problems.

What? This whole thread isn't boiled down to just munchkin. Whatever made you think it did?

Yes, and I also know what severe acute necrotizing pancreatitis (and its cousins) can look like, and what sepsis looks like, and I and pretty much everyone else in healthcare know what cirrhosis looks like. If that was the main cause of her sudden ascites and edema and transfer to the ICU then it's unfortunate that they didn't mention it given that cirrhosis is both easy and important to diagnose. I'm not saying you're wrong, and it's reasonable to assume that it might be a problem in her case. I just wanted to say that you can beat on Munchkin for her drinking even without invoking cirrhosis. Should you wish to or you can start a thread on the Case of the Sloshy Munchkin, if it's okay with her.

I don't feel that GGT is "beating" on me. She is stating her opinion. If that opinion differs from mine (or anyone's for that matter) then she defends her opinion. That's what a debate is, isn't it?

Actually I was talking about whether or not it's appropriate for two busybodies to discuss another person's life and dramatic medical experiences like this.

I don't have a problem with others discussing my medical problems. If I wanted to keep it all a big secret, I sure as hell wouldn't have started the thread in the other section. I find that, by throwing it out here, I get ideas as to what kinds of things to research, in the hopes of finding something that will help me.

She can speak for herself, and she has shared plenty of details that anyone can comment on. If you're trying to feign sudden conflict that you know more than you're comfortable knowing and commenting on....well, this isn't some case study.

Others have shared just as much about addictions or mental illnesses (and physical ramifications) in their personal lives. If it makes you feel better to have explicit consent, then I give you mine. Have at it, Dr. Minx.

Yes, I can speak up for myself. Sometimes I even do so!

Some of the topics we have discussed, both here and there, have involved health issues involving a transplant, surgery to change gender, OCD, depression, bi-polar disorders, and a wide variety of medical and mental issues. (I know there are more, I just can't think of any right off hand! ) If someone puts a problem out here, for all to read and comment on, then they must really want a discussion about whatever the issue is, either medical or mental. By starting a thread about one of these issues, the poster has given permission to discuss, and throw out ideas. If I had only wanted GGT to know the diagnosis, I would have told her on MSN and asked her not to mention it to others here. I really wanted other people's ideas and opinions, so I started a thread.

I know you don't agree with me when it comes to addictions. You are certain that anything that is called an addiction must be one, and the only way to treat it is thru mental health counseling. I believe that addictions are more in the line of medical problems, and mental health counseling isn't going to help one damned bit. If you want a meth addict to crave meth, sit and discuss meth for an hour. Just hearing about it makes you want it more. If people would just shut the fuck up, that same meth addict might be fine.

[Aimless]

What I am saying is...an addiction is a medical problem in that the drug of choice, when abused, changes brain chemistry! Things that are not ingested can't cause this same change, because they are not ingested into the body!

I'm glad you said this, because it gives us a clue as to where the misunderstanding lies.

You don't have to ingest things to change "brain chemistry" or brain function, how brain cells behave and how they link to each other. Do you have to "ingest" things to store memories? Do you have to "ingest" things in order to think? Do you have to "ingest" things to learn how to walk? Do you have to "ingest" things to be happy, or to be sad, to be depressed? Do you have to "ingest" things in order to see the world? Do you have to "ingest" things in order to feel someone's touch on your skin?



We are constantly responding to things in our environment--things we see, hear, smell, taste, feel, say, do... how do you imagine the brain does all those things without "ingesting" the world in the conventional, physical, hand-to-mouth sense? The answer is that you don't need to "ingest" things to influence what happens in the brain.

When it comes to addiction, many things center around the neurotransmitter dopamine, the most important neurotransmitter in the brain's reward system. You don't need to "ingest" things to influence the reward system. That's why we find so many things enjoyable without having to eat them--things like sex, winning at poker, etc. And that's part of the reason why you can develop an addiction to something that you haven't "ingested".

Read the above carefully and then decide what you think. If it turns out that your basic premise is that the brain is separate from the self and from the outside world, then it's clear we can't come to an agreement, but it should also be clear that you are wrong. That kind of false belief has unfortunate consequences apart from robbing psychiatrists of your hard-earned money, I mean.

[Aimless]

Hell, am I addicted to wearing black t-shirts? Or maybe I am addicted to cran-apple juice? Or watching TV? Or taking a shower? See how ridiculous it becomes when you can just make up an addiction to fit the person sitting in the room with you?

No, it becomes ridiculous when you make up silly things without actually bothering to find out what the definition and the criteria for diagnosis are for addictions and abuse. Don't hold the rest of the world responsible for your lack of information.

The above is about as sensible as getting mad about the harmful effects of alcohol and cigarettes and then going on a rant asking, "Do black t-shirts cause cancer??! Does parting your hair on the left cause heart-attacks??!?!?! HUH??!?!" And the answer to those questions are "probably not", but that doesn't mean that alcohol and cigarettes can give you cancers and heart-attacks.

[Aimless]

As for the rest, just because someone gives me permission to grab her ass doesn't mean I have to do it, or even that I should.

[GGT]

I know you don't agree with me when it comes to addictions. You are certain that anything that is called an addiction must be one, and the only way to treat it is thru mental health counseling. I believe that addictions are more in the line of medical problems, and mental health counseling isn't going to help one damned bit. If you want a meth addict to crave meth, sit and discuss meth for an hour. Just hearing about it makes you want it more. If people would just shut the fuck up, that same meth addict might be fine.

It's not discussing the substance for an hour, though. You've had counseling sessions, but if you just sat around talking about drinking, no wonder you thought it was a waste of time.

[oldmunchkin]

It's not discussing the substance for an hour, though. You've had counseling sessions, but if you just sat around talking about drinking, no wonder you thought it was a waste of time.

It's obvious you get/got better counseling than I ever did. Last time I went (court ordered) all we did was sit around and talk about how bad drinking was, how drinking was doing bad things to us specifically, and then the fucker wanted us to end each session telling our favorite drink "goodbye forever". Yup, that's what you get for drug and alcohol counseling thru the great state program. No matter what subject we tried to bring up, it all went right back to talking about booze. I talked to a girl who got popped for drugs, and she said the drug sessions were the same as the booze, except they talked about their drug of choice instead of alcohol.

[GGT]

Admittedly, I'm not familiar with court-mandated State Programs. Based on your description of other services in your state, it's probably not very good, so don't judge all counseling by that standard. Were you required to pay for it any way, or make restitution of some sort? If it all comes from the state budget....well, you get what you pay for?

[oldmunchkin]

My insurance (yes I had some then) paid about $50 per session, I paid for the stupid alphabet test out of pocket, plus paying all the fines and fees to the court. So no, it wasn't something the state was paying for, it was something I was paying for!

[GGT]

My insurance (yes I had some then) paid about $50 per session, I paid for the stupid alphabet test out of pocket, plus paying all the fines and fees to the court. So no, it wasn't something the state was paying for, it was something I was paying for!

What's an alphabet test? If it was your own insurance, why did you use state-operated group counseling, instead of picking your own counselor one-on-one?

[oldmunchkin]

What's an alphabet test? If it was your own insurance, why did you use state-operated group counseling, instead of picking your own counselor one-on-one?

It's that stupid test that asks if the world is flat, if people are out to get you, if the grass is purple, that kind of shit. The lady at the counselor's office referred to it by a bunch of letters. Thus, alphabet test! It starts with A I think!
The court got to pick where you went at that time. Since then, you can take your pick from any of the 3 counselors we have in BFE. If I remember right, at that time, the state program, Eastern Wyoming Mental Health, (It now goes by Solutions for Life.) was the only drug and alcohol counseling in town. I do know quite a few people that went to private counselors in other towns, rather than deal with the nonsense we had then.

Hey GGT, turn on MSN. I have a really stupid question you might be able to answer for me...Please!

[GGT]

They always do cognitive tests first, to screen out psychosis or organic brain diseases or dementia. No clue what purple grass test was all about.... but it doesn't sound like a very rational approach for treating DUIs or addictions that lead to arrests.

[Aimless]

Never mind the alphabet test, read my post and fix your brain OM.

[oldmunchkin]

They always do cognitive tests first, to screen out psychosis or organic brain diseases or dementia. No clue what purple grass test was all about.... but it doesn't sound like a very rational approach for treating DUIs or addictions that lead to arrests.

You have to remember, this is a court ordered thing (last time I took it, this time would be voluntary) meaning it doesn't have to be rational or have anything to do with DUIs or addictions. They just want you to spend $100 out of your own pocket, they won't bill insurance for this test, probably because they know insurance won't pay for something so stupid, so they can find out if you are insane or whatever.

Never mind the alphabet test, read my post and fix your brain OM.

My brain is just fine, thank you very much! I firmly believe that if you think you are addicted to exercise, quit fucking exercising, or sex, quit fucking, or work, learn to work 40 hours a week and no more, or whatever. These things have nothing to do with the traditional meaning of addiction. An addiction is a chemical reaction to a substance ingested into the body...nothing more, nothing less. Of course, this is just my uneducated opinion, and what the hell would I know about it?

[Aimless]

I firmly believe that if you think you are addicted to exercise, quit fucking exercising, or sex, quit fucking, or work, learn to work 40 hours a week and no more, or whatever. These things have nothing to do with the traditional meaning of addiction. An addiction is a chemical reaction to a substance ingested into the body...nothing more, nothing less. Of course, this is just my uneducated opinion, and what the hell would I know about it?

You don't have to worry, I educated you in a recent post on this very page where I discussed your notions on "brain chemistry" and "ingesting" things. Read it again! I firmly believe that there is no excuse for your continued ignorance.

[Khendraja'aro]

My brain is just fine, thank you very much! I firmly believe that if you think you are addicted to exercise, quit fucking exercising, or sex, quit fucking, or work, learn to work 40 hours a week and no more, or whatever. These things have nothing to do with the traditional meaning of addiction. An addiction is a chemical reaction to a substance ingested into the body...nothing more, nothing less. Of course, this is just my uneducated opinion, and what the hell would I know about it?

Highlighted the 3 main problems with your post.

First: Belief has no place in defining an addiction.
Second: Tradition has no place either.
Third: To top it off, you admit that you don't even know what you're yammering about.

So, either educate yourself or shut the hell up.