A rational approach to depression, addiction, etc?

[oldmunchkin]

Highlighted the 3 main problems with your post.

First: Belief has no place in defining an addiction.
Second: Tradition has no place either.
Third: To top it off, you admit that you don't even know what you're yammering about.

So, either educate yourself or shut the hell up.

Are you addicted to being a jerk to me? Maybe you should seek mental health counseling to overcome this horrible addiction!

Look people! Even tho it may cause the brain to get some pleasure, something like sex addiction or exercise addiction or work addiction is a lifestyle CHOICE! You can't have a physical (medical) withdrawal from not having sex or exercising, or working. You may feel like you are missing something you find important, but it's not going to cause physical withdrawal!

But, going by your definitions of an addiction, people like Tiger Woods and Jesse James have a terrific excuse for being unfaithful to their spouses. OMG, I have a sex addiction, I can't be held responsible. Luckily, the women in those 2 cases were smart enough to realize it's just a fucking excuse, and got their divorces!

[Aimless]

Yes, people who divorce opiate addicts and alcohol addicts and amphetamine addicts, those people are assholes how could anyone divorce someone who has a physical addiction??!?!?! No, wait, hang on, people with opiate addiction have an excuse for being addicts! No, wait...



As for withdrawal, they experience withdrawal. Just because you've tried to define withdrawal symptoms as being exclusively "physical" and then equated "physical" with "Medical" doesn't make it so you know what this is about? This is about what excuses you like. I won't speculate as to why you find some excuses more valid than others.

[GGT]

Wait, Jesse James?

[Aimless]

I can't help but wonder how the Munchkin Manual of Psychiatry deals with compulsive disorders. I wonder if they "count". I would expect they don't count.

[oldmunchkin]

Yes, people who divorce opiate addicts and alcohol addicts and amphetamine addicts, those people are assholes how could anyone divorce someone who has a physical addiction??!?!?! No, wait, hang on, people with opiate addiction have an excuse for being addicts! No, wait...

I never said that! I said those women knew that, by calling sex an addiction, the men were trying to find an excuse for screwing around. The men thought their wife would never leave someone with an addiction! Yes, people divorce addicted people all the time. When an addiction interferes with lives other than the addicts, when all that addict can think of is his next drink or fix or whatever, and cares nothing about the spouse, kids, work, money to pay bills, etc, then it's time to get rid of that person.

No, a heroin addict sometimes uses the addiction as an excuse for breaking the law, hurting someone, whatever. You know, you have heard it, "I can't be held responsible for killing that person in the other car (or that I was trying to rob, or whatever) because I am addicted to heroin/alcohol/cocaine/whatever substance I abuse!" At least those people have a physical addiction to whatever they are trying to use as an excuse. A lifestyle addiction, that can be ended by quitting said behavior, is too often used as an excuse for "bad" behavior! (I know bad is not quite the right word, but can't think of a better one right now...sorry!)

As for withdrawal, they experience withdrawal. Just because you've tried to define withdrawal symptoms as being exclusively "physical" and then equated "physical" with "Medical" doesn't make it so you know what this is about? This is about what excuses you like. I won't speculate as to why you find some excuses more valid than others.

Sure, they MISS whatever it was they found pleasurable, but is that actually withdrawal? I miss going to the bar...not for the alcohol, but for the friends I have there and the social life I once had! Am I in withdrawal? No! I might be lonely or bored, but I am not experiencing pain or DT's or whatever because I don't see people every day! (Of course, this just means I am going to go back to being a hermit, which is not a good thing!)

Wait, Jesse James?

He builds custom motorcycles. He had a show on Discovery channel for a while. He was married to Sandra Bullock. She divorced him because he couldn't keep his dick in his pants! He tried the excuse of..."I'm a sex addict" but she was too smart to believe his bullshit. She knew his problem was a lifestyle choice, and not a true addiction. She even said, in 1 interview, that had he been an alcoholic or drug addict, she would have, maybe, tried to stay with him and help him in getting help. She didn't believe, anymore than I do, that anyone can be addicted to sex!

I can't help but wonder how the Munchkin Manual of Psychiatry deals with compulsive disorders. I wonder if they "count". I would expect they don't count.

You do realize that mental disorders are a whole different animal than addictions, don't you. Compulsive disorders, phobias, depressions, all those things are mental health issues. By taking much needed attention, and care, from real disorders like this, sex/work/exercise lifestyle choices being called addictions are hurting people who really need help! Too many psychiatrists and doctors are choosing to specialize in addictions (Mainly because of the money they can make. Hell, you only need 1/2 hour a week to discuss someone's sex addiction!) instead of being focused on very real mental health issues!

[GGT]

......A lifestyle addiction, that can be ended by quitting said behavior, is too often used as an excuse for "bad" behavior! (I know bad is not quite the right word, but can't think of a better one right now...sorry!)

Behaviors can be addictive, not just because they're learned, or by "ingesting a substance", but because of the rush of chemicals bathing the brain. Benign behaviors can turn into habits, become dependencies, and sometimes loosely defined addictions.

Even things like Learned Helplessness or Serial Marriages have some scientific evidence based in brain science studies. Pavlov proved the reward system lives in the brain......

Sure, they MISS whatever it was they found pleasurable, but is that actually withdrawal? I miss going to the bar...not for the alcohol, but for the friends I have there and the social life I once had! Am I in withdrawal? No! I might be lonely or bored, but I am not experiencing pain or DT's or whatever because I don't see people every day! (Of course, this just means I am going to go back to being a hermit, which is not a good thing!)

That's why addiction treatments aren't limited to just treating physical withdrawal, removing the substance, or ceasing the behavior. Changing associated lifestyles is often the most difficult part. Many addicts "fall of the wagon" because they're still surrounded by the very group dynamics that were part of their addiction.

He builds custom motorcycles. He had a show on Discovery channel for a while. He was married to Sandra Bullock. She divorced him because he couldn't keep his dick in his pants! He tried the excuse of..."I'm a sex addict" but she was too smart to believe his bullshit. She knew his problem was a lifestyle choice, and not a true addiction. She even said, in 1 interview, that had he been an alcoholic or drug addict, she would have, maybe, tried to stay with him and help him in getting help. She didn't believe, anymore than I do, that anyone can be addicted to sex!

Maybe Hollywood isn't the best place to get your medical or behavioral beliefs.

You do realize that mental disorders are a whole different animal than addictions, don't you. Compulsive disorders, phobias, depressions, all those things are mental health issues. By taking much needed attention, and care, from real disorders like this, sex/work/exercise lifestyle choices being called addictions are hurting people who really need help! Too many psychiatrists and doctors are choosing to specialize in addictions (Mainly because of the money they can make. Hell, you only need 1/2 hour a week to discuss someone's sex addiction!) instead of being focused on very real mental health issues!

Addictions are almost always based in a mental health condition. The arrow of cause-and-effect moves both ways. There are even genes pre-disposing certain people to addictions and/or mental health issues.

[Aimless]

She didn't believe, anymore than I do, that anyone can be addicted to sex!

Tom Cruise believes in scientology, Jenny McCarthy believes vaccines cause autism, and I remember you posting all sorts of crazy conspiracies back on CC.

You do realize that mental disorders are a whole different animal than addictions, don't you. Compulsive disorders, phobias, depressions, all those things are mental health issues. By taking much needed attention, and care, from real disorders like this, sex/work/exercise lifestyle choices being called addictions are hurting people who really need help!

What are you talking about? Phobias are just about people being big wusses, they can just avoid social situations for example or man up. Compulsive disorders, even the sex related ones, are just lifestyle choices. It's not like you would die is you didn't wash your hands 200 times a day. You'd just miss it a lot. Depression doesn't exist, psychiatrists just say it does to make lots of money off of weak-willed rich people.

Too many psychiatrists and doctors are choosing to specialize in addictions (Mainly because of the money they can make. Hell, you only need 1/2 hour a week to discuss someone's sex addiction!) instead of being focused on very real mental health issues!

I'm not sure how to respond to this brand of crazy other than with GGT said. I live in a country where there are too few psychiatrists period.

[GGT]

....I'm not sure how to respond to this brand of crazy other than with GGT said. I live in a country where there are too few psychiatrists period.

I gave you (or anyone else) consent to analyze my addictions and depressive conditions. At this point, I am coming to grips with pride that doesn't do a damn good thing for any damn good thing. munchkin and I have spent some time earlier tonight, going back and forth about mental health and "addictions".

Denial is often dressed up in stubborn clothes, and no one likes to feel naked.

[GGT]

Plus, I was hoping that shedding my clothes and appearing naked, would inspire others to do the same. I don't see throngs of people willing to participate in this emotional orgy, exposing anything at all. Perhaps that's too difficult, because it IS a hard thing to do.

Admitting a personal problem shouldn't require medication or a support group. It shouldn't arrive after other parts of life fall apart, or hurts others. But it often turns out that way. My ex punching our son in the face is a good example of how things can quickly turn tides, and make people take notice of what the hell is going on.

[Khendraja'aro]

Are you addicted to being a jerk to me? Maybe you should seek mental health counseling to overcome this horrible addiction!

Look people! Even tho it may cause the brain to get some pleasure, something like sex addiction or exercise addiction or work addiction is a lifestyle CHOICE! You can't have a physical (medical) withdrawal from not having sex or exercising, or working. You may feel like you are missing something you find important, but it's not going to cause physical withdrawal!

But, going by your definitions of an addiction, people like Tiger Woods and Jesse James have a terrific excuse for being unfaithful to their spouses. OMG, I have a sex addiction, I can't be held responsible. Luckily, the women in those 2 cases were smart enough to realize it's just a fucking excuse, and got their divorces!

Okay, one last try to educate you:

The way drugs work is that they stimulate the pleasure center of the brain. Due to repeated stimulation, your brain will adjust to the point that every other stimulant besides the drug will not cause as much pleasure - and you'll need more of the drugs itself to cause pleasure.

HOWEVER, this stimulation can also come from other sources - you can literally hardwire your brain to reward you for actions you take. Which then leads down the same path as drugs - just that you don't need an exterior chemical, your body does it all for you. For instance, most people feel overjoyed after having a hard workout - that's because the brain releases endorphines after such an exertion. Which in turn means that you can get addicted to work out hard.

What you're obviously not getting is the relation between outside forces and the way your brain works. The drugs don't magically change your brain - they exploit what is already there!

[GGT]

Well, if nothing else, we can see how hard it is for some people to participate in addiction therapy. Or why they try so hard to claim that therapy has no value, and addiction has no meaning.

[oldmunchkin]

As per your explanation, Khen, then I am addicted to cooking a great meal. Hell, I feel overjoyed to realize I have created something that I, and maybe someone else, will get to enjoy eating. Does that mean I need to have therapy for that? Am I addicted to cooking? Or, how about, when I was still cleaning houses, the great satisfaction and feeling of well-being I got from a job well done? Was I addicted to cleaning? Or to doing my job properly?

See, by your explanation, everyone is addicted to almost everything they enjoy doing. Does what I am saying make sense? Do you understand now why I feel real addiction is based solely on the ingestion of whatever drug the addict uses? Or am I just talking to myself here?

GGT, therapy should be used by those who need it, and not wasted on simulated addictions. Therapy has great value when used as it should be. People who have mental disorders (I hate wording it like that, but can't think of a better word. Sorry.) should get therapy as well as whatever medical help they need. People who have real addictions should, if they need it, get therapy.

Therapy is wasted on people who are just there to fulfill someone else's expectations. IE, the court, or people other than the person therapy is being forced upon. Contrary to some people's belief, not all people who use/abuse drugs and/or alcohol have deep, underlying mental problems. Some people use/abuse drugs/alcohol simply because they like the feeling/taste. I used alcohol because I genuinely like the taste of Black Velvet, and like the social aspect of going to the bar. I haven't had a drink in almost 2 months, and have no craving for a drink. I crave company and good conversation and arguing about whatever sports is on, or politics, or whatever. I really miss the social aspect more than anything! Oh yeah, according to Khen, since I enjoy it, I must be addicted to being a social person!

[Khendraja'aro]

As per your explanation, Khen, then I am addicted to cooking a great meal.[...]

See, and here you go off again, showing your absolute ignorance, unwilling to learn something new even when it stares you in the face. Additionally, you showed off your absolute inability to read when the facts presented therein don't suit your narrow-minded world view. You actually are talking just to yourself here, like a lunatic cut off from the real world, looking at everything through tinted glasses which absorb anything you're unable to comprehend.

I NEVER DEFINED ADDICTION! Plus, your view of what makes an addiction is a retarded one, clearly springing from an addled brain in denial.

I just told you that your oh-so-simple explanation that addictions solely stem from external chemical sources is plain wrong. Get it into your head: Chemicals are ONE source of an addiction, BUT NOT THE ONLY ONE.

You even admitted yourself that you don't have the faintest of clues of how the brain works, so shut the hell up. You don't know anything about this topic except your retarded views.

Did I make myself clear? And learn to read.

So, what exactly would YOU call someone who runs marathons on a daily basis, feeling bad when he can't run, foregoes rest against all advice and finally grinds his Achilles tendon down to a pulp, thus crippling himself?

And gamblers, who compulsively spend all their money and money they don't own, how would you call those?

[Aimless]

okay

so this whole thing stems from munchkin's mistaken belief that addiction is defined as "feeling good"?

[Khendraja'aro]

okay

so this whole thing stems from munchkin's mistaken belief that addiction is defined as "feeling good"?

I'm not quite sure how one can ignore the "compulsive", "withdrawal" and "continuing despite negative effects" aspects when defining addictions. Yet munchkin managed just fine.

[GGT]

GGT, therapy should be used by those who need it, and not wasted on simulated addictions. Therapy has great value when used as it should be. People who have mental disorders (I hate wording it like that, but can't think of a better word. Sorry.) should get therapy as well as whatever medical help they need. People who have real addictions should, if they need it, get therapy.

And what do you think of therapy for children or spouses of addicts? Just another waste of time?

Therapy is wasted on people who are just there to fulfill someone else's expectations. IE, the court, or people other than the person therapy is being forced upon. Contrary to some people's belief, not all people who use/abuse drugs and/or alcohol have deep, underlying mental problems.

Those who have court-mandated therapy have a DUI or committed crime while under the influence, or had such severe family issues that they need help. Why would it be a bad thing to explore the underlying mental or emotional reasons?

Some people use/abuse drugs/alcohol simply because they like the feeling/taste. I used alcohol because I genuinely like the taste of Black Velvet, and like the social aspect of going to the bar. I haven't had a drink in almost 2 months, and have no craving for a drink. I crave company and good conversation and arguing about whatever sports is on, or politics, or whatever. I really miss the social aspect more than anything! Oh yeah, according to Khen, since I enjoy it, I must be addicted to being a social person!

[oldmunchkin]

And what do you think of therapy for children or spouses of addicts? Just another waste of time?

If they feel they need to talk to a therapist, then more power to them. Being neglected and/or abused does cause people to need to talk to someone "uninvolved" in the family dynamics.

Those who have court-mandated therapy have a DUI or committed crime while under the influence, or had such severe family issues that they need help. Why would it be a bad thing to explore the underlying mental or emotional reasons?

If we talk about the majority of DUI's, we are talking first-offenders. So, the guy who gets off work on Friday, goes to the local beer joint with his work buddies, has too many, and drives home must have severe mental or emotional reasons? Hell, he just lost track of time, and beers, and tried to drive home! Where is the emotional or mental reasoning there?

I don't know what you are rolling your eyes about. I guess you don't like it when I speak the truth.

[GGT]

If they feel they need to talk to a therapist, then more power to them. Being neglected and/or abused does cause people to need to talk to someone "uninvolved" in the family dynamics.

Do you expect kids of addicts to know what they need, and ask to see a therapist?

If we talk about the majority of DUI's, we are talking first-offenders. So, the guy who gets off work on Friday, goes to the local beer joint with his work buddies, has too many, and drives home must have severe mental or emotional reasons? Hell, he just lost track of time, and beers, and tried to drive home! Where is the emotional or mental reasoning there?

Did you just try to defend drunk driving by saying they're mostly first-offenders, and it's no big deal when people drink and drive?

I don't know what you are rolling your eyes about. I guess you don't like it when I speak the truth.

Five-day binges aren't because someone likes the taste of booze, or the social environment of a bar. Others are trying to explain what addictions are (no, it's not craving a social life) but you're convinced it's all a bunch of psycho-babble. Why?

[oldmunchkin]

Do you expect kids of addicts to know what they need, and ask to see a therapist?

That's where the other parent, if applicable, teachers, grandparents, and neighbors come in. Or, how about the guidance counselor at school. If those children have been abused (a very good possibility) physically, one of those people should already have taken steps to help the child.

Did you just try to defend drunk driving by saying they're mostly first-offenders, and it's no big deal when people drink and drive?

NO, I did NOT defend drunk driving...I said "So, the guy who gets off work on Friday, goes to the local beer joint with his work buddies, has too many, and drives home must have severe mental or emotional reasons?" I am trying to ask, the person who went to celebrate the promotion, or mourn the hard week, and has a few too many...accidentally...and drives does NOT have severe emotional or mental problems! Read the fucking post again! I didn't defend drunk driving, altho we can start a thread about the police state that is occurring in that area if you like!

Five-day binges aren't because someone likes the taste of booze, or the social environment of a bar. Others are trying to explain what addictions are (no, it's not craving a social life) but you're convinced it's all a bunch of psycho-babble. Why?

An addict craves the substance. Or, according to Khen, the activity! I don't crave booze at all. I like the taste of it. I don't need it, nor do I want it, especially not if it will kill me now. To you, those were 5 day binges, to me they were social life, since there is no other here unless you count the grocery store!

[GGT]

That's where the other parent, if applicable, teachers, grandparents, and neighbors come in. Or, how about the guidance counselor at school. If those children have been abused (a very good possibility) physically, one of those people should already have taken steps to help the child.

Family that's been enabling the addict is often the last to know the depths of the problems, or how the dynamics work. But you're okay with teachers or guidance counselors recommending counseling, just not if it comes the courts?

NO, I did NOT defend drunk driving...I said "So, the guy who gets off work on Friday, goes to the local beer joint with his work buddies, has too many, and drives home must have severe mental or emotional reasons?" I am trying to ask, the person who went to celebrate the promotion, or mourn the hard week, and has a few too many...accidentally...and drives does NOT have severe emotional or mental problems! Read the fucking post again! I didn't defend drunk driving, altho we can start a thread about the police state that is occurring in that area if you like!

Now being drunk is an excuse for being drunk, and drunk driving? Come on, that's silly. If he's surrounded by other "drinking buddies" who don't take away his keys or call a taxi, that's a pretty big red flag don't you think? If that's how your local bar and drinking buddies operate, no wonder you think a police state is coming.

An addict craves the substance. Or, according to Khen, the activity! I don't crave booze at all. I like the taste of it. I don't need it, nor do I want it, especially not if it will kill me now. To you, those were 5 day binges, to me they were social life, since there is no other here unless you count the grocery store!

Right, everyone in your town is either drinking at a bar (out of boredom), or grocery shopping. What the hell.....?

[oldmunchkin]

Family that's been enabling the addict is often the last to know the depths of the problems, or how the dynamics work. But you're okay with teachers or guidance counselors recommending counseling, just not if it comes the courts?

Read what you wrote! Recommending is a whole lot different, and pleasant, than being ordered, aka forced, by the courts!

Now being drunk is an excuse for being drunk, and drunk driving? Come on, that's silly. If he's surrounded by other "drinking buddies" who don't take away his keys or call a taxi, that's a pretty big red flag don't you think? If that's how your local bar and drinking buddies operate, no wonder you think a police state is coming.

Have you never gone out with friends, and drank more than you intended to? And don't preach about drinking and driving when I know you have done it yourself, to get more smokes or more rum/Jack/wine, at midnight when you couldn't/didn't want to sleep.

Right, everyone in your town is either drinking at a bar (out of boredom), or grocery shopping. What the hell.....?

Or sitting at home, watching TV. I have told you, over and over, we have no community center, no rec center, no bowling alley, no movie theater, basically the only place to gather and visit with others, aka socialize, is at the bar.

[GGT]

Read what you wrote! Recommending is a whole lot different, and pleasant, than being ordered, aka forced, by the courts!

You don't think some people need to be forced into therapy, after drunk driving?

Have you never gone out with friends, and drank more than you intended to? And don't preach about drinking and driving when I know you have done it yourself, to get more smokes or more rum/Jack/wine, at midnight when you couldn't/didn't want to sleep.

Sure, I've driven after a glass or two of wine, after a meal and spaced over a few hours of time. That doesn't make one drunk, like your beer-guzzling scenario where he "accidentally" drives drunk. I've also over-imbibed at parties and been driven home by a Designated Driver. Contrary to your wild and outrageous accusations, which I find offensive, I don't get behind the wheel and drive when I'm tipsy.

I am guilty of Rule 12 from time to time. But that's not illegal or risking anyone's life. Also, we don't have any place that sells rum/whiskey/wine at midnight.

Or sitting at home, watching TV. I have told you, over and over, we have no community center, no rec center, no bowling alley, no movie theater, basically the only place to gather and visit with others, aka socialize, is at the bar.

So? You can still hang out at the bar, drink soda water with a twist, and socialize. Unless it's too difficult to be around the temptation of alcohol and remain sober. I just don't buy your excuse that the only place to gather and be sociable is at the bar.

[oldmunchkin]

You don't think some people need to be forced into therapy, after drunk driving?

Maybe some people need to be forced into therapy, but it's all rather Orwellian to me. You know, big brother knows what's best for everybody.

Sure, I've driven after a glass or two of wine, after a meal and spaced over a few hours of time. That doesn't make one drunk, like your beer-guzzling scenario where he "accidentally" drives drunk. I've also over-imbibed at parties and been driven home by a Designated Driver. Contrary to your wild and outrageous accusations, which I find offensive, I don't get behind the wheel and drive when I'm tipsy.

I am guilty of Rule 12 from time to time. But that's not illegal or risking anyone's life. Also, we don't have any place that sells rum/whiskey/wine at midnight.

Since it bothers you so much, ok I'll restate what I said. I believe you have driven to get smokes after having had a couple of glasses of wine or a couple of drinks!

If you don't think that qualifies as drinking and driving, then ok. According to the current BAC level needed to get you arrested, you could very possibly have been close to, or even at, that limit. Of course, most people don't have any noticeable impairment at .08, so there it is! That's how the states are making a mint off DUI's. And, of course, the courts must support other state programs, such as the state run mental health offices, so they sentence you to therapy...at the state run mental health office and no where else. If you go to your own therapist, and pay out of your pocket to a private individual, it will not be accepted by the court, and you can/will be found in contempt of court and possibly jailed. Now, do you understand my feelings about being forced into therapy. It's sure making money for the state!

So? You can still hang out at the bar, drink soda water with a twist, and socialize. Unless it's too difficult to be around the temptation of alcohol and remain sober. I just don't buy your excuse that the only place to gather and be sociable is at the bar.

Yes I can, or I can do what I am doing. I am stocking up on the necessities, so that here soon, I can go back to being a hermit! I might have to go out to get milk and bread occasionally, but other than that and the library, I will just stay in my own little world, and stagnate! I'll have to go to the post office, but I can do that at midnight, when I don't have to see anyone!

You just don't get that there are small towns in this country that have nothing but bars, churches, and a couple of restaurants that close at 9PM. Most likely, you consider a small town to have 50,000 people in it, I live in one with maybe 1200 people in it! There is not enough people here to make it feasible to have any of the amenities like places to socialize! You invite people to your home, or you meet them at the bar, if you want to have an evening with friends!

I guess I wasn't clear with my example of the dude who goes to the bar on Friday with his buddies and then gets arrested for DUI! I was trying to make the point that NOT EVERYONE who gets a DUI have deep-seated, severe emotional or mental issues. I guess that point went over everyone's head! Let me try again!

Joe goes to the bar, Friday night, with his co-workers to celebrate having gotten thru another week. Joe isn't a drinker, per se, but decides to have a beer while playing pool. Joe ends up having 2 beers, over the course of a couple of hours. Joe leaves to go home, and gets pulled over because his car was parked at the bar for 2 or 3 hours. Joe has neglected to eat anything, so the portable breathalyzer shows him at .08 BAC. He is arrested, and jailed for the night! My point with the example was basically a question! Does Joe have deep-seated, severe emotional or mental issues that require therapy? Or is Joe, like most arrested for DUI, a person who made a mistake...one he won't make again?

*For the purpose of the example, assume Joe is of average body size and weight. About 6 foot tall and about 180 pounds!

[Khendraja'aro]

If you don't think that qualifies as drinking and driving, then ok. According to the current BAC level needed to get you arrested, you could very possibly have been close to, or even at, that limit. Of course, most people don't have any noticeable impairment at .08, so there it is! That's how the states are making a mint off DUI's. And, of course, the courts must support other state programs, such as the state run mental health offices, so they sentence you to therapy...at the state run mental health office and no where else. If you go to your own therapist, and pay out of your pocket to a private individual, it will not be accepted by the court, and you can/will be found in contempt of court and possibly jailed. Now, do you understand my feelings about being forced into therapy. It's sure making money for the state!

One glass of wine (200ml, 10.5%) will yield a BAC of 0.4 for a female person weighing 60 Kilograms at a height of 1.7 meters, aged 50.

Just so we're dealing with real numbers here, instead of hearsay. If you drink two such glasses over the space of two hours, you'll end up with a BAC of 0.6 - not good, but still under the legal limit.

Joe goes to the bar, Friday night, with his co-workers to celebrate having gotten thru another week. Joe isn't a drinker, per se, but decides to have a beer while playing pool. Joe ends up having 2 beers, over the course of a couple of hours. Joe leaves to go home, and gets pulled over because his car was parked at the bar for 2 or 3 hours. Joe has neglected to eat anything, so the portable breathalyzer shows him at .08 BAC. He is arrested, and jailed for the night! My point with the example was basically a question! Does Joe have deep-seated, severe emotional or mental issues that require therapy? Or is Joe, like most arrested for DUI, a person who made a mistake...one he won't make again?

*For the purpose of the example, assume Joe is of average body size and weight. About 6 foot tall and about 180 pounds!

Let's see how much beer such a man would have to drink to reach a BAC of 0.8 (0.08 would be quite small and 0.8 is the real limit), let's make Joe 50 years old, okay?

He would have to drink 1.3 Liters of 5% beer. That would be the amount he'd have to drink in the instant before he leaves! Now, let's let him stay for, say, 4 hours. With a reduction of the BAC by 0.1 per hour, he'd now have to drink 1.9 Liters of beer.

I don't think that you're selling beers over there which are 1 Liter each.

[GGT]

Maybe some people need to be forced into therapy, but it's all rather Orwellian to me. You know, big brother knows what's best for everybody.

Which would you rather, a bunch of drunk drivers on the road? The same people who can't bother with a Designated Driver, or know when they shouldn't drive? In your mind, how many times could they fail a road sobriety test, without having "big brother" intervene? Or do they have to crash or kill someone, before it becomes the state's business?

Since it bothers you so much, ok I'll restate what I said. I believe you have driven to get smokes after having had a couple of glasses of wine or a couple of drinks!

Context matters, but I appreciate your attempt at backtracking. I'm also very careful not to drive after taking my migraine meds, cold meds, or even Benadryl. Impaired driving is something I take very seriously. Even drowsy driving IS dangerous.

If you don't think that qualifies as drinking and driving, then ok. According to the current BAC level needed to get you arrested, you could very possibly have been close to, or even at, that limit. Of course, most people don't have any noticeable impairment at .08, so there it is! That's how the states are making a mint off DUI's. And, of course, the courts must support other state programs, such as the state run mental health offices, so they sentence you to therapy...at the state run mental health office and no where else. If you go to your own therapist, and pay out of your pocket to a private individual, it will not be accepted by the court, and you can/will be found in contempt of court and possibly jailed. Now, do you understand my feelings about being forced into therapy. It's sure making money for the state!

No, I still think your ideas sound more conspiratorial, or hocus-pocus, than based in fact.

Yes I can, or I can do what I am doing. I am stocking up on the necessities, so that here soon, I can go back to being a hermit! I might have to go out to get milk and bread occasionally, but other than that and the library, I will just stay in my own little world, and stagnate! I'll have to go to the post office, but I can do that at midnight, when I don't have to see anyone!

You just don't get that there are small towns in this country that have nothing but bars, churches, and a couple of restaurants that close at 9PM. Most likely, you consider a small town to have 50,000 people in it, I live in one with maybe 1200 people in it! There is not enough people here to make it feasible to have any of the amenities like places to socialize! You invite people to your home, or you meet them at the bar, if you want to have an evening with friends!

Surely Big Brother is conspiring to keep you trapped in this small town, as a hermit.

I guess I wasn't clear with my example of the dude who goes to the bar on Friday with his buddies and then gets arrested for DUI! I was trying to make the point that NOT EVERYONE who gets a DUI have deep-seated, severe emotional or mental issues. I guess that point went over everyone's head! Let me try again!

Joe goes to the bar, Friday night, with his co-workers to celebrate having gotten thru another week. Joe isn't a drinker, per se, but decides to have a beer while playing pool. Joe ends up having 2 beers, over the course of a couple of hours. Joe leaves to go home, and gets pulled over because his car was parked at the bar for 2 or 3 hours. Joe has neglected to eat anything, so the portable breathalyzer shows him at .08 BAC. He is arrested, and jailed for the night! My point with the example was basically a question! Does Joe have deep-seated, severe emotional or mental issues that require therapy? Or is Joe, like most arrested for DUI, a person who made a mistake...one he won't make again?

*For the purpose of the example, assume Joe is of average body size and weight. About 6 foot tall and about 180 pounds!

You can keep making new scenarios all you like, but they're still excuses for driving impaired.

If Joe is an adult and not mentally retarded, he should know that even two beers on an empty stomach (+ whatever medication he's taking + stress + fatigue) can mean he's impaired, and shouldn't drive. You're just complaining about the .08 parameter and Big Brother, and using that to de-legitimize therapy.

[oldmunchkin]

Which would you rather, a bunch of drunk drivers on the road? The same people who can't bother with a Designated Driver, or know when they shouldn't drive? In your mind, how many times could they fail a road sobriety test, without having "big brother" intervene? Or do they have to crash or kill someone, before it becomes the state's business?

I would rather we not have this issue at all. In a perfect world, with perfect people, DUI's would never happen. Unfortunately, this is not a perfect world. How many times have I read/heard that someone who doesn't want help can't be forced into it? Too many to count. But courts still think that forcing someone into therapy will make the problem go away. It doesn't make anything go away, in fact, it sometimes creates worse problems. Consider the person who just got off probation/out of therapy, who goes on a massive drunk. Do you think that isn't a problem? Quite a few people, mostly repeat offenders, do this in defiance of the court. Wow, that really saved the people in the car that just got crunched! Think about it!

Context matters, but I appreciate your attempt at backtracking. I'm also very careful not to drive after taking my migraine meds, cold meds, or even Benadryl. Impaired driving is something I take very seriously. Even drowsy driving IS dangerous.

I apologize if I offended you. It certainly wasn't intentional.

No, I still think your ideas sound more conspiratorial, or hocus-pocus, than based in fact.

Uhm, not if you actually look at the court records, especially in rural areas. Maybe in more urban areas judges allow private counseling, but not so much in places that are more isolated. To say nothing of the fact that many places don't have private counselors!

Surely Big Brother is conspiring to keep you trapped in this small town, as a hermit. [/QUOTE]

Nope! I stay here because, despite the drawbacks, I love BFE and the people here!

You can keep making new scenarios all you like, but they're still excuses for driving impaired.

If Joe is an adult and not mentally retarded, he should know that even two beers on an empty stomach (+ whatever medication he's taking + stress + fatigue) can mean he's impaired, and shouldn't drive. You're just complaining about the .08 parameter and Big Brother, and using that to de-legitimize therapy.

If Joe is a human, he can/will make mistakes. What part of that isn't getting thru. It was a totally unintentional thing, on his part, and he wasn't "impaired" at that level, but the law says he is, so off to jail he goes. Then, in therapy, he has to invent some emotional or mental issue to keep the therapist happy. Because Joe is just an ordinary guy with no mental or emotional problems, IRL! Joe just made a fucking mistake and paid for it in blood and bullshit!

[GGT]

Your tags are messed up.

But courts still think that forcing someone into therapy will make the problem go away. It doesn't make anything go away, in fact, it sometimes creates worse problems. Consider the person who just got off probation/out of therapy, who goes on a massive drunk. Do you think that isn't a problem? Quite a few people, mostly repeat offenders, do this in defiance of the court. Wow, that really saved the people in the car that just got crunched! Think about it!

Going on a massive drunk, in defiance of the court, is indeed a problem. You're blaming the courts for this? Pullease....

How many more excuses can you make for Joe, as a way to de-legitimitze police or mental health professionals? It's not a very good strategy.

[oldmunchkin]

Fixed tags!

How many times must I tell you, many people...people who have no underlying emotional or mental issues...are arrested for DUI did not intend to drive drunk. In fact, many women are legally drunk, according to legal BAC, after 1 drink! Technically, I am, due to my size and weight! Do I feel impaired after 1 drink? No. Is my driving impaired after 1 drink? Most likely not!

[Khendraja'aro]

Fixed tags!

How many times must I tell you, many people...people who have no underlying emotional or mental issues...are arrested for DUI did not intend to drive drunk. In fact, many women are legally drunk, according to legal BAC, after 1 drink! Technically, I am, due to my size and weight! Do I feel impaired after 1 drink? No. Is my driving impaired after 1 drink? Most likely not!

THAT'S BULLSHIT! Legal limit is 0.8. You cannot go over this limit after just one drink, safe for drinking pure alcohol!

[GGT]

Fixed tags!

How many times must I tell you, many people...people who have no underlying emotional or mental issues...are arrested for DUI did not intend to drive drunk. In fact, many women are legally drunk, according to legal BAC, after 1 drink! Technically, I am, due to my size and weight! Do I feel impaired after 1 drink? No. Is my driving impaired after 1 drink? Most likely not!

Is that like saying ignorance of the law is justification for breaking the law? Or that you just don't like the sentencing....because it involves something like alcohol education, under the title of "counseling"?

If you're legally impaired after one drink (or some of your meds), then you have no business driving a car or operating machinery. Most likely not impaired and posing a risk isn't really good 'nuff as an excuse. It's the same damn argument 80 year olds give when trying to hang onto their driver's license, long after they should have had their keys taken away.