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Thread: Revolution in Wisconsin

  1. #241
    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    That's great. I also notice that you still did not answer my question how unions influence the work environment.
    How can unions not influence the work environment? That's their goal. Do you realize that's kind of a silly assertion you seem to be making?

    From the right and the left:

    http://www.manhattan-institute.org/pdf/cr_06.pdf

    http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2...1fa_fact_brill

    Quote Originally Posted by Being View Post
    Maybe we should do with unions what Americans want done with unions,

    Majority in Poll Back Employees in Public Sector Unions

    Two to one. That is certainly worth taking into account.
    I figured someone would post that poll. I didn't want to debate it here, because as Enoch points out it seems pretty flawed. Besides indexing very high for unionized and public-sector households, it also has a high index of Democrats.

  2. #242
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    New York City's transit agency —*the largest transportation agency in the US —*spends 62% of its revenues on salary and benefits. So if you're riding a train in New York, 62% of the cost goes to the two people running the train. The remaining 40% goes to tracks, tunnels, trains, electricity and maintenance. Does that make sense to you?
    Not to say that you're wrong but that's an empty statement without meaning (but really, it sounds catchy ). First of all, it seems high but how on earth are you or I supposed to know if it is high? Trains are written off over decades, tunnels are already there, not a clue how much electricity or maintenance costs.

    And 'the two people running the train', that's just pathetic man. You know as well as I do that there are not only two persons on a train (and I would not be surprised if there were more than two, but hey, you ride them so you're probably right on that). There is also staff on all stations, planning, management, all kinds of overhead, even maintenance (which makes your claim that only 40% goes to everything else including maintenance even more silly because maintenance is labour intensive and therefore probably included in the salary and benefits, unless they outsource of course).

    You might very well have a point that they are overpaid and that their benefits are too good, but at least TRY to make an honest argument about it.
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

  3. #243
    It's a completely honest argument to make. Firstly, there are just two people on each subway, an operator and a condutor.

    Second, an organization that is capital-intensive shouldn't be spending that much money on pay and benefits. The figure is totally out of whack. Maintenance is labor intensive, but it's also capital-intensive. Tunnels need to be maintained, walls and support structure replaced, platforms refurbished, etc. Not to mention the regular cycling-out of rails every 18 - 36 months on an ongoing basis.

    Some lines in New York City are using train cars from 1965. It's taken that long to scrounge up the funding to buy new trains, and most of them have been purchased with debt anyway because most of the budget is going to salary and benefits.

    People like to complain about how the infrastructure in the US looks so shabby. The reason is quite simple: Even with state subsidies, 60% the money is going out the door to pay for salary and benefits.

  4. #244
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    And overhead and management is not done by employees? I'd say that management is a lot more expensive, usually. And is maintanence performed inhouse or outsourced? If it's inhouse, it is very labour intensive.

    I'm not saying you're wrong, just saying that 60% is a fairly meaningless figure.
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

  5. #245
    I think it's pretty meaningful number. Infrastructure and transportation is a capital-intensive industry. Spending a majority of money on operating labor costs, instead of capital, is a really bad way to go about things.

  6. #246
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    However in general however government workers are less likely to be fired for failing to do their job. This of course breeds laziness and poor effort. Sure some will be hard workers simply because they have a powerful work ethic. But most people don't have that virtue anymore and as such as conditioned by the work environment they are in.
    I'm not even sure you understand what you're typing at this point. You zeroed yourself out in few short sentences

    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    In the UK between the 20 years between Jan 1990 and Dec 2009 there were a grand total of 10 public school teachers dismissed for poor performance. Out of however many thousands and thousands in the country. 93% of UK children go to public schools. Countless who shouldn't be teaching are.
    Ignoring the attempt at unverified and out of context number pulling...
    I think we could make an agrument for any industry that there will be ignorant people from the outside looking in and claiming that someone should have been punished/retaught/fired for performing in a manner they don't consider satisfactory. Hell, the forums here couldn't come to a consensus if that Starbucks employee that blew up at a customer deserved to be fired.
    Teaching is also one of those scandalous positions where firings result in news headlines and damaging rumors. You're much more likely to end up with people being pushed out, or put into not direct educating positions. Not that I'm saying this is any better, but even 10 actual firings over 20 years is better (and more honest) than Dread's statement of it not being possible at all.

    I'm curious, what is the suggested firing rate for a position where the employee only got there after spending 4+ years in extra schooling and thousands of dollars on tuition? (at least on this side of the world)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    I didn't say lazy. But the government has gotten wasteful and less efficient.
    Now you want to complain about word games?
    Last edited by Ominous Gamer; 03-01-2011 at 10:20 PM.
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  7. #247
    Has the government not gotten wasteful and less efficient? One final rhetorical point before I have to head down to DC for the government:

    Opinion

    A Union Education
    What Wisconsin reveals about public workers and political power.



    The raucous Wisconsin debate over collective bargaining may be ugly at times, but it has been worth it for the splendid public education. For the first time in decades, Americans have been asked to look under the government hood at the causes of runaway spending. What they are discovering is the monopoly power of government unions that have long been on a collision course with taxpayers. Though it arrived in Madison first, this crack-up was inevitable.

    We first started running the nearby chart on the trends in public and private union membership many years ago. It documents the great transformation in the American labor movement over the latter decades of the 20th century. A movement once led by workers in private trades and manufacturing evolved into one dominated by public workers at all levels of government but especially in the states and cities.

    The trend is even starker if you go back a decade earlier. In 1960, 31.9% of the private work force belonged to a union, compared to only 10.8% of government workers. By 2010, the numbers had more than reversed, with 36.2% of public workers in unions but only 6.9% in the private economy.

    The sharp rise in public union membership in the 1960s and 1970s coincides with the movement to give public unions collective bargaining rights. Wisconsin was the first state to provide those rights in 1959, other states followed, and California became the biggest convert in 1978 under Jerry Brown in his first stint as Governor. President Kennedy let some federal workers organize (though not collectively bargain) for the first time in 1962, a gambit to win union support for his re-election after his cliffhanger victory in 1960.

    It's important to understand how revolutionary this change was. For decades as the private union movement rose in power, even left-of-center politicians resisted collective bargaining for public unions. We've previously mentioned FDR and Fiorello La Guardia. But George Meany, the legendary AFL-CIO president during the Cold War, also opposed the right to bargain collectively with the government.

    Why? Because unlike in the private economy, a public union has a natural monopoly over government services. An industrial union will fight for a greater share of corporate profits, but it also knows that a business must make profits or it will move or shut down. The union chief for teachers, transit workers or firemen knows that the city is not going to close the schools, buses or firehouses.


    This monopoly power, in turn, gives public unions inordinate sway over elected officials. The money they collect from member dues helps to elect politicians who are then supposed to represent the taxpayers during the next round of collective bargaining. In effect union representatives sit on both sides of the bargaining table, with no one sitting in for taxpayers. In 2006 in New Jersey, this led to the preposterous episode in which Governor Jon Corzine addressed a Trenton rally of thousands of public workers and shouted, "We will fight for a fair contract." He was promising to fight himself.

    Thus the collision course with taxpayers. Public unions depend entirely on tax revenues to fund their pay and benefits. They thus have every incentive to elect politicians who favor higher taxes and more government spending. The great expansion of state and local spending followed the rise of public unions.

    Professors Fred Siegel and Dan DiSalvo point out that even during the Reagan years, growth in state and local government jobs was double the rate of population growth. The effect on the private economy is a second order problem for public unions, as we've seen from the recession's far more damaging impact on private than on public workers.

    Current AFL-CIO chief Rich Trumka has tried to portray Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker's reforms as an attack on all unions, but they clearly are not. If anything, by reining in public union power, Mr. Walker is trying to protect private workers of all stripes from the tax increases that will eventually have to finance larger government. Regarding public finances, the interests of public union workers and those of private union taxpayers are in direct conflict. Mr. Walker is the better friend of the union manufacturing worker in Oshkosh than is Mr. Trumka.

    Notice, too, how fiercely the public unions are willing to fight for collective bargaining power even if it means public job layoffs. Without Mr. Walker's budget reforms, Wisconsin will have to begin laying off thousands of workers as early as today. The unions would rather give up those jobs—typically for their younger members—than give up their political negotiating advantages. They know some future Governor or legislature will get those jobs back, as long as they retain their inordinate political clout.

    This is the imbalance of political power that Mr. Walker is trying to break up, and he is right to do so. As important, the public in Wisconsin and around the U.S. seems to be listening and absorbing his message. The cause has been helped by the sit-ins and shouting of union members, the threats toward politicians who disagree with them, and by the flight of Democratic state senators to undisclosed locations in Illinois. It's hard to claim you're protecting democracy when you won't show up to vote. Taxpayers need to win the battle of Wisconsin for the sake of self-government.

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...898769040.html

  8. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    In the UK between the 20 years between Jan 1990 and Dec 2009 there were a grand total of 10 public school teachers dismissed for poor performance. Out of however many thousands and thousands in the country. 93% of UK children go to public schools. Countless who shouldn't be teaching are.
    At my workplace, which would be a part of the public service in most other countries we had 20,824 FTE december 31st 2002, that had been reduced to 12,663 FTE by december 2009. The vast majority of those 8,000 people saw their contracts terminated. I have pointed this out at several times; tenure is counter productive. The fact that I know that - within legal boundaries - my job security doesn't span much further than one year of any given work day gives me a rather strong incentive to want to do my job well.
    Congratulations America

  9. #249
    You're all over the place, Dread. Rather mirrors the GOP in lock-step. Our budget crises were supposed to entail smart changes for the future, without stalling this tepid "recovery". Whether tax policy changes, combining redundant departments, reducing bloat or waste, spurring growth.....making government more efficient, using tax dollars wisely. Things everyone agreed needs to be done.

    But what are the first things the GOP governors or congress did once elected? Fiddle with abortion. Claiming it's a funding issue, thus trying to defund Planned Parenthood. Cutting heating assistance to the elderly, slashing early education programs, less money for food assistance, claiming welfare programs spend too much on poor people. Then move to bust unions, by attaching union restrictions to budget proposals, saying it's the unions' fault that everyone is broke. Gutting Education funding in general, making teachers and students the first victims of "austerity".

    All the while extending tax breaks to top 2% income-earners, when they're doing just fine, thank you very much. Giving breaks to corporations and industries that already have "special treatment", hoping they will expand and hire. How's that goin'?

    Jobs Jobs Jobs. It's the Economy, Stupid. That's what got them elected, remember? Not abortion, or same-sex marriage, or unions.

    Maybe they figure if we're distracted long enough by these other incendiary issues, no one will notice the sluggish growth and continued unemployment. Maybe if people are divided about healthcare benefits and retirement plans between public and private, or between young and old.....nobody will wonder why we don't ALL have healthcare and retirement?

  10. #250
    % of population != % of households

    Although that's something that's been discovered in surveys here, that public sector employees are disproportionately more likely to answer the phone to political pollsters than private sector ones. IPSOS-MORI now weights down the responses of public sector employees to compensate for this and get a balanced sample.

    EDIT: Woah, was replying to a post I can't even see now. Odd.

  11. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Ignoring the attempt at unverified and out of context number pulling...
    I think we could make an agrument for any industry that there will be ignorant people from the outside looking in and claiming that someone should have been punished/retaught/fired for performing in a manner they don't consider satisfactory. Hell, the forums here couldn't come to a consensus if that Starbucks employee that blew up at a customer deserved to be fired.
    Teaching is also one of those scandalous positions where firings result in news headlines and damaging rumors. You're much more likely to end up with people being pushed out, or put into not direct educating positions. Not that I'm saying this is any better, but even 10 actual firings over 20 years is better (abnd more honest) than Dread's statement of it not being possible at all.
    Fair point about education, but you could say the same about spending a lot on education for architects or lawyers etc

    I'd be curious if you could find a private industry as resistant to dismissal as that.

  12. #252
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    I have the same problem. By the way, I doubt unions in the US ever held the kind of power they held in the UK in the pre-Thatcher years.
    Congratulations America

  13. #253
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    EDIT: Woah, was replying to a post I can't even see now. Odd.
    Seems posts are disappearing. Sometimes my replies disappear before I'm even done typing. I thought it was just me.

  14. #254
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Seems posts are disappearing. Sometimes my replies disappear before I'm even done typing. I thought it was just me.
    No you're not going insane It happens to me as well. But it seems to be dependent on the hardware I am using. I could find posts on my iPad that I can't find on my laptop.

  15. #255
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    EDIT: Woah, was replying to a post I can't even see now. Odd.
    Can you see it now? If you're using the quick reply, it doesn't requery the database after submitting your post, which can occasionally cause a bit of temporary weirdness. If it's not just that though, I'd like to investigate further.

  16. #256
    Quote Originally Posted by Enoch the Red View Post
    The polling numbers there seem more than a little skewed.

    From the article:

    Union membership accounts for something like 11.9% of the population and the government only employees ~19,000,000 people or 6% of the total population of the United States.

    Additionally, within those two subsets there are sure to be overlaps.
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    % of population != % of households

    Although that's something that's been discovered in surveys here, that public sector employees are disproportionately more likely to answer the phone to political pollsters than private sector ones. IPSOS-MORI now weights down the responses of public sector employees to compensate for this and get a balanced sample.

    EDIT: Woah, was replying to a post I can't even see now. Odd.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    Can you see it now? If you're using the quick reply, it doesn't requery the database after submitting your post, which can occasionally cause a bit of temporary weirdness. If it's not just that though, I'd like to investigate further.
    My post 250 was a reply to post 240.

  17. #257
    Ah, that explains it then. I've done that before too.

  18. #258
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    % of population != % of households
    True.

  19. #259
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    My post 250 was a reply to post 240.
    That's why we have a button to reply with quote.
    Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
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  20. #260
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    I think it's pretty meaningful number. Infrastructure and transportation is a capital-intensive industry. Spending a majority of money on operating labor costs, instead of capital, is a really bad way to go about things.
    I agree with your main point on unions, but on this part Flixy's right. You can't really come to any conclusions based solely on those percentages. Even though you only see two people working, there's pretty much always a lot more people working who you don't see in these things. More information is needed before any meaningful conclusions about the wastefulness of those percentages can be drawn.

  21. #261
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    I agree with your main point on unions, but on this part Flixy's right. You can't really come to any conclusions based solely on those percentages. Even though you only see two people working, there's pretty much always a lot more people working who you don't see in these things. More information is needed before any meaningful conclusions about the wastefulness of those percentages can be drawn.
    Also, not replacing written off equipment has different and less drastic effects than letting go of the people operating that equipment. Which makes make do with old train cars attractive to politicians a lot more than other, tougher choices. That also distorts the balance.
    Congratulations America

  22. #262
    http://www.thenation.com/blog/158942...nity-wisconsin

    Governor Walker gave $140 million in tax breaks to corporations—right before he announced this fiscal year's deficit of $137 million. The good people I met last week at the Wisconsin Budget Project call that a structural deficit. I’d go further. It’s not only structural; it’s structured—to bring about exactly this phony budget crisis.
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  23. #263
    Fox news coverage, they are so focused on bringing the public an honest, fair, and balanced view of the protests that they totally missed the big story in the video clip, palm trees in Madison!



    Also like how they weren't able to list who is busing who in....
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  24. #264
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    At my workplace, which would be a part of the public service in most other countries we had 20,824 FTE december 31st 2002, that had been reduced to 12,663 FTE by december 2009. The vast majority of those 8,000 people saw their contracts terminated. I have pointed this out at several times; tenure is counter productive. The fact that I know that - within legal boundaries - my job security doesn't span much further than one year of any given work day gives me a rather strong incentive to want to do my job well.
    Agreed -- it's easy for people to get complacent, that's just human nature.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    I agree with your main point on unions, but on this part Flixy's right. You can't really come to any conclusions based solely on those percentages. Even though you only see two people working, there's pretty much always a lot more people working who you don't see in these things. More information is needed before any meaningful conclusions about the wastefulness of those percentages can be drawn.
    Folks forget that I have some specific background in this field. Over 60% is really high. Private freight railroads have similarly-sized train crews and the same types of capital needs, yet operate within a range of about 16 - 30% of their expenses devoted to salary and benefits. Even Amtrak is at 45%, though it's labor and maintenance arrangements are more diffuse. But once we get into the systems where a localized series of unions controls a transit system, the costs start to cross the 50% threshold (NY's MTA, WMATA in DC, etc).

    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Those tax cuts were prescient considering Illinois raising taxes next door; shaving off taxes doesn't mean massive revenue cuts. It was also a specific campaign pledge. Not to mention it doesn't explain the massive and easily forecast shortfalls for future years. This isn't just about this year's budget, it's about the budgets for the future.

    Meanwhile, the mujahadeen in nearby Ohio bravely fight on, passing a bill restricting public employee collective bargaining in the State Senate and moving to the State House..

    And the battle wages at Wisconsin, which is arguably now symbolically important compared to real victories. Wisconsin Governor Says He Will Begin Issuing Layoff Warnings to Unions.

  25. #265
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    Folks forget that I have some specific background in this field. Over 60% is really high. Private freight railroads have similarly-sized train crews and the same types of capital needs, yet operate within a range of about 16 - 30% of their expenses devoted to salary and benefits. Even Amtrak is at 45%, though it's labor and maintenance arrangements are more diffuse. But once we get into the systems where a localized series of unions controls a transit system, the costs start to cross the 50% threshold (NY's MTA, WMATA in DC, etc).
    Fair enough, my biggest issue that such a number is meaningless on its own, a comparison helps (though they are not all that similar, but this gives a context). If you had added this at the beginning I would not have complained. I didn't really forget your background, I simply did not know it.
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

  26. #266
    Yeah, and Ohio's Republicans are simply being fiscal Conservatives.


    Just Balancing The Budget
    02 MAR 2011 06:07 PM

    In Ohio's legislation to curtail public sector union collective bargaining rights - just passed by the Senate - the following passage exists:

    Sec. 3101.01 of S.B. 5: ... A marriage may only be entered into by one man and one woman. Any marriage between persons of the same sex is against the strong public policy of this state. Any marriage between persons of the same sex shall have no legal force or effect in this state and, if attempted to be entered into in this state, is void ab initio and shall not be recognized by this state. The recognition or extension by the state of the specific statutory benefits of a legal marriage to non-marital relationships between persons of the same sex or different sexes is against the strong public policy of this state. Any public act, record or judicial proceeding of this state, as defined in section 9.82 of the Revised Code, that extends the specific statutory benefits of legal marriage to non-marital relationships between persons of the same sex or different sexes is void.

    So a blanket and total ban on any form of legal protections for gay couples, including any semblance of even domestic partnerships or civil unions, is, as one Republican put it, the "first big step in restoring fiscal responsibility in Ohio." And so the Tea Party slowly reveals itself.

    [Update: an Ohio reader lets me know that this language merely reiterates the Ohio Revised Code since the Ohio Constitution was amended by ballot initiative in November 2004 to define marriage to be between a man and a woman. Its purpose in the bill is to strip out the benefits that would be affected by collective bargaining.)
    http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.co...he-budget.html

  27. #267
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Yeah, and Ohio's Republicans are simply being fiscal Conservatives.




    http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.co...he-budget.html
    Yes? You did see that update line Sullivan put in at the bottom, right?
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  28. #268
    Yes, which makes it even more GOP gloppety-goo.

  29. #269


    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
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  30. #270
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    Funny wording that, leaves a lot of openings for things that may be found to be not so marriage-specific
    Congratulations America

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