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Thread: Revolution in Wisconsin

  1. #271
    Looks like Wisconsin Republicans might favor political conservatism over bogus financial conservatism.

    Wis. governor proposes union compromise

    Senate Republicans spent hours going over the compromise plan Tuesday morning in a closed-door meeting, Majority Leader Scott Fitzgerald said. He acknowledged that pressure was increasing on the senators, saying the recall efforts launched against eight Republicans were "on everybody's minds."

    "Everybody's obviously receiving a lot of pressure," Fitzgerald said. "I had people on my front porch before I left this morning."
    Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
    If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?

  2. #272
    Wisconsin Akbar!

    Wisconsin Akbar!

    Wisconsin Akbar!

    March 9, 2011

    G.O.P. Tactic Ends Stalemate in Wisconsin Union Fight

    By MONICA DAVEY

    CHICAGO — The bitter political standoff in Wisconsin over Gov. Scott Walker’s bid to sharply curtail collective bargaining for public-sector workers ended abruptly Wednesday night, as his Republican counterparts in the State Senate successfully maneuvered to adopt a bill doing just that.

    After a three-week stalemate, Republican senators pushed the measure through in less than half an hour, with the Senate’s Democrats still miles away trying to block the vote. Democratic Assembly members complained bitterly, and protesters, who had spent many days at the Capitol, continued their chants and jeers.

    The Republicans control the State Senate but had been blocked from voting on the issue after Senate Democrats left the state last month to prevent a quorum. Instead, they used a procedural maneuver to force the collective bargaining measure through: they removed elements of Governor Walker’s bill that were technically related to appropriating funds, thus removing a requirement that 20 senators be present for a vote. In the end, the Senate’s 19 Republicans approved the measure, 18-1, without any debate on the floor or a single Democrat in the room.

    The remaining bill, which increases health care and pension costs and cuts collective bargaining rights for most public workers in the state, still needs approval from the State Assembly on Thursday morning, but that chamber has already once approved the measure, and most political experts in Wisconsin now considered approval a foregone conclusion.

    Mr. Walker, a Republican whose efforts to diminish collective bargaining rights have placed him firmly in the national spotlight during his less than three months in office, applauded the Senate’s move on Wednesday night, and said it brought the state a step closer to balancing its budget. “The action today will help ensure Wisconsin has a business climate that allows the private sector to create 250,000 new jobs,” Mr. Walker said, in a statement released minutes after the unexpected vote.

    Democrats, meanwhile, condemned the move as an attack on working families, a violation of open meetings requirements (most of them did not know there was to be a vote until not long before), and a virtual firebomb in state that already found itself politically polarized and consumed with recall efforts, large scale protests, and fury from public workers.

    “In 30 minutes, 18 state senators undid 50 years of civil rights in Wisconsin,” said Mark Miller, the leader of the Senate Democrats who had fled to Illinois on Feb. 17 in order to block just such a vote from occurring. “Their disrespect for the people of Wisconsin and their rights is an outrage that will never be forgotten.”

    Mr. Miller continued: “Tonight, 18 Senate Republicans conspired to take government away from the people. Tomorrow we will join the people of Wisconsin in taking back their government.”

    For weeks until late Wednesday afternoon, Republicans and Democrats in the state had been at an impasse over Mr. Walker’s bill. Because the bill was deemed a fiscal bill, it required 20 members — and, thus, at least one of the Democrats’ 14 members — to be in the room.

    On both sides, as the Democrats camped out in Illinois, there had been negotiations, angry news conferences, breakdowns in negotiations, and talk of more negotiations. Senate Republicans had voted to fine each of the missing Democrats $100 a day. The Senate Democrats had talked almost every day, sometimes disagreeing over whether it was time to give up and go home or to continue demanding that the Republicans lessen the cuts to collective bargaining rights.

    As the impasse has dragged on, some senators from both parties have found themselves the focus of recall efforts. All told, more than a dozen senators were being singled out, chosen in part because of Wisconsin’s rules for recalls, which require selected lawmakers to have been in office for at least a year and call for thousands of voters’ signatures to be gathered in a matter of 60 days — a process that was under way with canvassing all last weekend.

    Even as recently as Sunday evening, a possible deal seemed in sight. In private e-mail exchanges with the Democrats, Mr. Walker’s representatives appeared willing to agree to some limited changes.

    But on Wednesday afternoon, after talks had clearly broken apart, Republican senators met privately for hours, and eventually called a conference committee meeting of the leaders in the Senate and Assembly for 6 p.m. Central time. Peter Barca, a Democratic leader in the Assembly, protested vehemently as Scott Fitzgerald, the Senate Republicans’ leader, called the meeting to order, announced that a new bill — without specific mentions of appropriations — was being considered, and called for a vote.

    “This is a violation of open meetings laws!” Mr. Barca cried out repeatedly, demanding to hear a summary of the bill and what had changed. But Mr. Fitzgerald swiftly moved to the Senate chamber, calling his Republicans to order, and calling for another vote in a matter of minutes.

    “Enough is enough,” Mr. Fitzgerald said, in a statement he issued minutes later.

    “The people of Wisconsin elected us to do a job. They elected us to stand up to the broken status quo, stop the constant expansion of government, balance the budget, create jobs and improve the economy. The longer the Democrats keep up this childish stunt, the longer the majority can’t act on our agenda.”

    The bill makes significant changes to most public sector unions, limiting collective bargaining to matters of wages only and limiting raises to the Consumer Price Index unless the public approves higher raises in a referendum. It requires most unions to hold votes annually to determine whether most workers still wish to be members. And it ends the state’s collection of union dues from paychecks.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/10/us/10wisconsin.html
    A friend who is a Wisconsin teacher is posting the most insane comments on Facebook about going on strike. Looking forward to the unions overplaying their hand.

  3. #273
    I don't get why this wasn't done right away (separating this from the revenue bill). I asked people why this wasn't being done the first day the Democrats bailed...
    Hope is the denial of reality

  4. #274
    Probably wanted Democratic representatives to be present so they could share some of the blame, even if its only guilt by association? Its about time they passed the silly thing anyway. Any idea about the vague financial measures specified? Will they attempt to pass them separately when the Democrats come back?

  5. #275
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    Wisconsin Akbar!

    Wisconsin Akbar!

    Wisconsin Akbar!
    You are more over the top on this than anything I've seen from Lewk. But I see recalls coming.
    Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
    If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?

  6. #276
    Because I think this is substantive and necessary for everyone's future.

  7. #277
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    I don't get why this wasn't done right away (separating this from the revenue bill). I asked people why this wasn't being done the first day the Democrats bailed...
    Because it was a better talking point for Walker to say this was about the budget and this specific tactic only works if the budgetary parts are stripped out.

    But yeah they really should have done it right away. Now it gives the appearance that the Republicans did something "wrong" or "sneaky."

    Either way. HAH Unions. Take that!

  8. #278
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    But yeah they really should have done it right away. Now it gives the appearance that the Republicans did something "wrong" or "sneaky."
    It's a bit tricky to call this "wrong" or "sneaky" without saying the same of the disappearance of the Democrats, if you ask me, it's both sneaky use of political loopholes.
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

  9. #279
    Quote Originally Posted by Flixy View Post
    It's a bit tricky to call this "wrong" or "sneaky" without saying the same of the disappearance of the Democrats, if you ask me, it's both sneaky use of political loopholes.
    What the Republicans did was sneaky. What the Democrats did was incredibly undemocratic. Can you imagine that any time a political party doesn't get what it wants, it refuses to show up, and therefore prevents the bill from being voted on?
    Hope is the denial of reality

  10. #280
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    What the Republicans did was sneaky. What the Democrats did was incredibly undemocratic. Can you imagine that any time a political party doesn't get what it wants, it refuses to show up, and therefore prevents the bill from being voted on?
    Well, it's not so black and white... They believe they are protecting the minority. That is an idea enshrined in the US history of laws..

    PS: You may slap me if you think I am being punny.

  11. #281
    Quote Originally Posted by agamemnus View Post
    Well, it's not so black and white... They believe they are protecting the minority. That is an idea enshrined in the US history of laws..

    PS: You may slap me if you think I am being punny.
    The minority party can always claim to be protecting the minority (after all, there's a reason they didn't win the election). That's not an excuse to act undemocratically. If the Democrats thought a constitutional right was being violated, they should have taken this to the courts.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  12. #282
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    What the Republicans did was sneaky. What the Democrats did was incredibly undemocratic. Can you imagine that any time a political party doesn't get what it wants, it refuses to show up, and therefore prevents the bill from being voted on?
    I don't really see it as any different from filibustering. Either way, it's using a loophole that was not meant for this to avoid a certain political result.
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

  13. #283
    Quote Originally Posted by Flixy View Post
    I don't really see it as any different from filibustering. Either way, it's using a loophole that was not meant for this to avoid a certain political result.
    A filibuster is conducted within the framework of parliamentary rules. It is not much different to requirement a super-majority to pass a bill. What the Democrats are doing is preventing the legislature from working as long as it refuses to listen to them, something they are not entitled to, seeing that they are a minority. Do you think democracy can function if the minority party can block any legislation by walking out?
    Hope is the denial of reality

  14. #284
    Quote Originally Posted by Flixy View Post
    It's a bit tricky to call this "wrong" or "sneaky" without saying the same of the disappearance of the Democrats, if you ask me, it's both sneaky use of political loopholes.
    Oh I'm not blaming the Republicans for doing it. I'm just saying they didn't play it as smart as they could have.

  15. #285
    Is there anyone here who does think this tactic by the Republicans is out of line? Considered as a response to a quorum flight and after 20 days failure to bring about a negotiated resolution to that flight?
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  16. #286
    I wonder how Democrats would react if Republican Congressmen refused to show up for the Healthcare vote (50% is needed for quorum in both houses). I'm sure they'd think the tactic was fully legitimate and democratic.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  17. #287
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    Because I think this is substantive and necessary for everyone's future.
    Yeah, I can't wait to see how that pans out for your kids.
    Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
    If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?

  18. #288
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    Is there anyone here who does think this tactic by the Republicans is out of line? Considered as a response to a quorum flight and after 20 days failure to bring about a negotiated resolution to that flight?
    It's not out of line but I'm pretty sure they will pay a political price for it. The question is, was it worth it?
    Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
    If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?

  19. #289
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    I wonder how Democrats would react if Republican Congressmen refused to show up for the Healthcare vote (50% is needed for quorum in both houses). I'm sure they'd think the tactic was fully legitimate and democratic.
    50% is a big number.

  20. #290
    Youth violence in 2025 sends its heartfelt thanks, Wisconsin.
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  21. #291
    So, it's now proven that Walker and the WI GOP were simply using a procedural/political tactic to "bust unions". It was so transparent that it wasn't really about the budget, but about ideology. I hate to say I told you so, but I told you so.

    Now that they've separated fiscal issues from collective bargaining issues, they should be able to balance the state budget straight away. Great public education for next generations, good pay for great public teachers, and less taxes for everyone.....especially corporations and the wealthy. Remind me again why cops and firefighters were exempted from collective bargaining?



    By the way, for anyone whining about exploiting procedural quirks like quorums needed for passing state budgets, but not needing a quorum for restricting groups to bargain as groups --- or whether a minority using a filibuster to limit a super majority vote is any different --- Abraham Lincoln once jumped out of a window to avoid casting his vote on a controversial issue. Or at least that's how the rumor goes.

  22. #292
    On a side note FL seems to have gotten their act together as well.

    http://www.tampabay.com/news/educati...cle1156411.ece

    Victory for the people!

  23. #293
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    By the way, for anyone whining about exploiting procedural quirks like quorums needed for passing state budgets, but not needing a quorum for restricting groups to bargain as groups --- or whether a minority using a filibuster to limit a super majority vote is any different --- Abraham Lincoln once jumped out of a window to avoid casting his vote on a controversial issue. Or at least that's how the rumor goes.
    Yep, he did. He also said later that he regretted doing so, that it was probably the most shameful political action in his career. . . but of course he said that well after the issue he was avoiding had ceased to matter. I make no effort to stand in judgment of people fleeing a quorum. I believe my stated opinion is that what I get most out of it is entertainment from the political circus it inevitably entails. I think they're funny as hell. I'm not about to judge or object to most any effort to resolve a quorum flight either, including all sorts of political coercion, tricks, loopholes, etc.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  24. #294
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    On a side note FL seems to have gotten their act together as well.

    http://www.tampabay.com/news/educati...cle1156411.ece

    Victory for the people!
    an unfunded mandate that furthers America's problem of teaching towards the test.

    that hardly sounds like a victory
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  25. #295
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    Yep, he did. He also said later that he regretted doing so, that it was probably the most shameful political action in his career. . . but of course he said that well after the issue he was avoiding had ceased to matter. I make no effort to stand in judgment of people fleeing a quorum. I believe my stated opinion is that what I get most out of it is entertainment from the political circus it inevitably entails. I think they're funny as hell. I'm not about to judge or object to most any effort to resolve a quorum flight either, including all sorts of political coercion, tricks, loopholes, etc.
    It might be more "entertaining" if this was really just a circus and we go home afterward, with no let-down, blow-back, after-effect, or consequences. Nothing irritating but the popcorn kernels in our laps. Unfortunately, the elephants still want their peanuts and water bathes; the donkeys still want their corn kernels and brushing rub down. The human trainers are no better.... they (we) just keep trying to figure out how to train and placate the circus animals, what to feed them in carrot treats without beating them to death with our sticks. Instead of refusing to buy tickets to the damn circus.

  26. #296
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    So, it's now proven that Walker and the WI GOP were simply using a procedural/political tactic to "bust unions". It was so transparent that it wasn't really about the budget, but about ideology. I hate to say I told you so, but I told you so.
    Except it's still about the budget, even if not legislatively tied to the budget. The underlying issue was the costs the unions were able to force into the government.

    I should also point out that the unions weren't abolished. They are simply now allowed to negotiate salary, employees will have to opt-in to pay their union dues and the unions will have to be re-certified every year. Much like we re-certify our politicians every few years.

  27. #297
    Has anyone here pointed out that federal employees aren't allowed to negotiate for wages, pensions, or most other material aspects of their employment? Maybe Obama should change that.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  28. #298
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Has anyone here pointed out that federal employees aren't allowed to negotiate for wages, pensions, or most other material aspects of their employment? Maybe Obama should change that.
    Yes, I think that was mentioned early in this thread. Along with the fact that federal employees don't contribute to SS. My recollection could be wrong, but I'm not going to scroll back through this mess to find out.

    And for anyone who says "It's about the budget!"....I dare you to prove how collective bargaining for public teachers is the culprit for budget gaps.

  29. #299
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    Except it's still about the budget, even if not legislatively tied to the budget. The underlying issue was the costs the unions were able to force into the government.
    I call major foul. If it's all really about the budget, then why are tax payers on the hook for bailing out the financial industry? Why isn't anyone from that economic meltdown being prosecuted or thrown in jail? The unions may have "bargained" their way into unsustainable legacy costs, but it wasn't FRAUD. That was politicians being wusses. After the financial wizards managed to kill everyone's retirement by half, with their slight of hand and math quant alchemy......why should it be the public teachers to swallow the bitter pill first? Why were the cops and firefighters exempt from this new legislation?

    I should also point out that the unions weren't abolished. They are simply now allowed to negotiate salary, employees will have to opt-in to pay their union dues and the unions will have to be re-certified every year. Much like we re-certify our politicians every few years.
    Yeah, keep pointing. You could put an eye out that way.

  30. #300
    Do we really have to start comparing teacher salaries+benefits in the larger unionized districts with test scores?

    More importantly, no one is calling for union leaders to be put in jail.

    And ultimately union pension benefits aren't integral to our economy. Our financial system is.

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