So one family makes 50k a year and has energy and time left over to spend with their kids, to go on vacation, to exercise, to cook good food, to read good books, without having to worry too much about going broke almost overnight. I reckon that family is middle class, but not merely by virtue of making 50k/year.
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
50k/year for a family of 4 is a fucking tight financial situation. Unless they live in a state with a fucking low cost of living, middle class not.
The Rules
Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)
In Lewkowskiland, attaining middle class simply means a household income of $50k.
Lewk stated 2 people making 25k each. He didn't think to include children or location. Yes, his example could be true in some bumfuck location in the middle of nowhere, by its easily very false for most american families.
"In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."
For whatever number you choose, I question the notion that it's about the number rather than about the life.
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
Yes it is. Assume two small kids. Assume Mom works part time at fast food. Assume dad has 2 shit jobs, one full time, one part time. Assume neither gets health insurance at their job, or a 401k, or a pension. These people are middle class? Hardly. These are the people Dread "can't afford" to cover with health insurance and Lewk thinks are "stupid, lazy, and undisciplined."Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer
The Rules
Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)
Lewk might say that two adults making $50K (in your scenario of what's basically 2 part time jobs and one full time job, with no health insurance, 401k or pension...) would be "stupid" to have children.
He also might belittle agencies like Planned Parenthood offering Family Planning that could help those two people think twice before having one child, let alone two kids.
He'd try to defund PP, then remove aid to struggling families with kids. He'd cover both sides and all bases....because he hates poor people, women, and poor women who have children. Then he'd try to say he is pro-life, when what he really means is pro-sperm.
If all the working poor in America put off having children until they weren't poor anymore.... the birth rate would drop dramatically.
The Rules
Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)
True, but the financial drain on Fed and State services would as well.
Brevior saltare cum deformibus viris est vita
No. The working poor aren't all that much of a drain. They don't get Medicaid, remember? They aren't on food stamps and their kids don't qualify for Head Start. They are middle-class after all ($50k/ year!). What we end up with is nobody to manage our burger flippers, stock the shelves at Kroger, sell us cigarrettes at the gas station, mow and edge our lawns, keep the books at the local carpet layer, bill the insurance companies at the family doctor, sell us paint and hammers at the local Home Depot, fill the soda and chip machines at work, and dust the cob webs from above your cube.
The Rules
Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)
So?
I thought you one of the yahoos who would like to see less people anyway?
Brevior saltare cum deformibus viris est vita
Well, that's true I guess.
The Rules
Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)
Most of Americans even those in the upper class have tight financial situations. People making 200k a year have their houses foreclosed on because they overspend. That doesn't mean they are lower class simply because they have financial hardship. You obviously find fault with my definition so please put forth your own definition of middle class. Also I'm betting you dislike my 25/50/25 ratio, do you have a different ratio in mind?
Lewk already trolls on the than/then. I wonder if we harp on him about runon sentences and commas he'll pick that up too. Within a few weeks we could end up getting him to post in an almost indistinguible language.
But seriously, you're being overly dishonest in ignoring that there is a minimal a family has to make to survive in this country. Financial hardship well above that minimum isn't a sign of lower class status, its a sign of being an idiot. but you can only use that "poor finance management" excuse for so long before you reach a minimum value that its no longer relevent.
"In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."
I don't know what that ratio is. I missed that somewhere.
Also, middle class will be different depending on the region. In some places I'm sure 50k is legitimate. It seems in any urban area and its associated suburbs, basically where most people live these days, that would be impossible. What should it be? Seriously, I don't know. You must know that defining the middle class as been contentious since forever. If you want to call it the income level that allows a family of 4 to own a house, 2 cars, have life and health insurance, save for kids college, and put away enough for a reasonable retirement, you could probably calculate it on a regional basis. Further questions should be whether its fair to call people middle class if the above things are all they can do. No vacations, no dinners out, no cable vision and high speed internet, only shopping at walmart, no fancy electronics, furniture, cars, etc. Is that middle class, if someone can make those basics but not spend a little extra on consumer goods and services?
The Rules
Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)
My ratio means 25% of Americans are lower class, 50% are middle class (you know the middle) and 25% are upper class. The problem with doing a deep dive into "owning a home, two cars, also enough to spend on vacations/collage)" is that there are few statistics that would encompass all of that. In addition what if you are single? What about if you have no kids to save for college for?
Its difficult to settle on a number, as we both clearly know. Not sure why you settled on 50k, knowing that though....?
The Rules
Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)
Ratios of what, though? Income, savings, spending, debt, or total "assets"? What about latest figures showing the top 10% "income earners" hold ~80% of all wealth? Similar data shows a majority of workers are "invested" in 401-Ks and IRAs, but only 9% (maybe 6%) are actually market movers and shakers.
I'm not sure your ratio by income works out very well to define class or social status. Maybe 10% Poor, 10% Wealthy, everyone in between. That's a pretty big number of low/middle/upper squished into one group. Change that to savings to debt ratios and it could look more like most of our population is.....one bad medical or employment event away from being broke and poor.
Ratio of income works best IMO. Though to your point GGT if most of America is one major life event away from being in serious financial hardship then financial security is not a sign of "middle class."
That's pretty much what I said already.
Stupidity? Every major plan to change Medicare/SS in the last decade has come with the caveat that this doesn't effect 55+ crowd.That's pretty much what I said already.
Millions get worried about losing any of that extra $12,000/year because without it they'd be "Poor". What's stupid is having a payroll cap for contributing, and not means-testing for those who don't need that extra $12,000 to live in old age.
SS is already means tested. Fewer benefits are given to folks with other revenue streams.
Not exactly what I meant by means-testing for wealthy retirees, but you already knew that.
I feel it necessary to remind everyone that currently SS favors people who were irresponsible and did not save for retirement.Not exactly what I meant by means-testing for wealthy retirees, but you already knew that.
Will this be your pat answer for everything now? It's all about those stupid, lazy, undisciplined people?
Sure, there are people who didn't save enough for retirement or the escalating costs of Old Age. Those with defined benefit pensions also got shafted a bit over time (see number of plans taken over by PBGC). So did those retiring during the financial melt-down and don't have another 20 years to recoup and build up their nest egg. Manual laborers especially ended up as 65 + with plenty of health problems and limited savings.
If I had to make a blanket statement it would be that Baby Boomers in general have been "favored" as voting blocs in the schemes they benefit from, but they're now the ones yelling loudly about debt and deficit, and their grandchildren's future? Right.I'd believe it if the comfortable and well-off boomers agreed to refuse their "entitlements" so their poorer peer group won't have to use section 8 housing, food stamps, heating subsidies, or Medicaid.
And when a major medical crisis occurs, wiping out any savings they had, that makes them irresponsible? My parents had a nice savings when they "retired"*. That effectively dropped to nothing when Dad got sick. And he didn't have to pay the majority of the medical bills! I pity the elderly who aren't veterans, because they get fucked when it comes to retirement and failing health!
My parents are pretty much a good indicator of many retirees. They saved all their lives, they thought they could retire in relative comfort...not a mansion but not a fucking dump either! Part of it stems from rising costs, no cost of living increases in SS, and living longer in general.
Here is a question for you Lewk! What do you think these people should have done to have saved more? Quit eating? As long as I can remember, my parents saved no less than 10% of their yearly income, and had a reasonably healthy savings account. Of course, there were years that their total yearly income was $6000! No, that is NOT a typo! Yes, they are/were different than the 9 to 5'ers, they were ranchers. Yes, ranching is basically gambling to make a living! It always has been, it always will be. Lucky for Mom, Dad always paid into SS for her, even tho she wasn't an "employee" but an equal partner in the operation. If not for that, Mom would be living on a hell of a lot less than she is now! You do know she is still working? At 84? And it's not for fun either. The VA denied her a portion of Dad's benefits, so she tries to exist on her SS and her peanuts-pay job. At least she has that!
EDIT: Ooops, I forgot the " *" . My parents didn't have a 401K or any of that stuff. They also didn't have an employer retirement package. They did sell their living, the ranch, and banked the profits after buying a house. After Dad's first health crisis, the savings started going down, with no money coming in to replenish it!
I don't have a problem with authority....I just don't like being told what to do!Remember, the toes you step on today may be attached to the ass you have to kiss tomorrow!RIP Fluffy! 01-07-09 I'm so sorry Fluffster! People who don't like cats were probably mice in an earlier life! My mind not only wanders, sometimes it leaves completely!The nice part about living in a small town: When you don't know what you're doing, someone else always does!
Atari bullshit refugee!!
Out of curiosity, munch---what did the VA deny your mom and why?
It's a long story. She was denied the survivor's pension for Dad's war related disability payments. As to why...who the hell knows! Of course, she is kinda one of those people. She said, "Well, they paid the final hospital bills, so I am not going to cause trouble." Her boss and I both tried to tell her she was giving up too easy. We all know that dealing with the government requires patience, tenacity, and stubbornness!
I don't have a problem with authority....I just don't like being told what to do!Remember, the toes you step on today may be attached to the ass you have to kiss tomorrow!RIP Fluffy! 01-07-09 I'm so sorry Fluffster! People who don't like cats were probably mice in an earlier life! My mind not only wanders, sometimes it leaves completely!The nice part about living in a small town: When you don't know what you're doing, someone else always does!
Atari bullshit refugee!!
Dude, seriously, pay attention already.
I also think it's insane that you're gladly embracing a definition of "middle class" that encompasses people are are just one illness away from being dirt poor. Clearly the American middle class are lagging behind the rest of the world in several important ways
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
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