Yes
No
@ ggt; if she is not reliable about facts then i sure as hell won t believe her charges just because she said so
@ wiggin; i guess it s quite simple you think these things work one way based in some irrelevant statistics i believe the opposite it is clear you will no convince me or you me
@ randblade; what was the charge again? Rape or not respecting anglo puritanism?
Congratulations America
Funny how the NYT it s wise to enter the melee with some silly semi-researched piece about the dangers of working in a hotel that mostly teach us that people don t always wear clothes when in a bathroom.
Congratulations America
Well I think the way the NY police acted was over the top, but a the same time I think the French response was over the top. I think I have the right to criticize something without being accused to support the opposite. I may also agree with the end but not with the means.Originally Posted by RandBlade
I remember that I had a similar stance back in the Iraq war discussion.
"Wer Visionen hat, sollte zum Arzt gehen." - Helmut Schmidt
How did they act "over the top"? Was DSK treated any worse than anyone else accused of the same crime?
On the one hand, we have the NYC police following protocol. On the other, we have a majority of Frenchmen accusing a rape victim of lying, with absolutely no evidence to support them. You seem to be drawing moral equivalence in a situation where there is no moral equivalence to draw.
Hope is the denial of reality
Earthjoker thinks the general treatment of people charged with crimes in the US is over the top, remember?
Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"
earthjoker didn't seem to have a problem with it until his media made it into a problem last week.
Hope is the denial of reality
Wait, so we have to enumerate any and all things we have a problem with or our opinions are automatically invalid as stated by Dr. Loki?
Oh, great! Let me compile a list. And God forbid I forget an issue, can't have that! Instant lose in a discussion!
And, Loki, I expect a comprehensive list from you as well!
Wait, are we also allowed to have problems with issues we didn't think about as of yet? Or issues which are related to other issues and thus difficult to differentiate? And what of those we didn't even know of? Do we have to keep informed about everything in order to participate here and have our opinion expressed as valid by Loki?
Good thing you brought that up! We desperately need a ruleset by which we can determine whose opinion is actually valid!
So, let's see:
#1 Matters for which you have previously expressed no concern over make your opinion automatically insignificant.
#2 If rule #1 applies you have the right to be strawmanned by Loki with a one-liner.
I'm sure that you can add to those rules, Loki
Last edited by Khendraja'aro; 05-21-2011 at 11:06 PM.
When the stars threw down their spears
And watered heaven with their tears:
Did he smile his work to see?
Did he who made the lamb make thee?
It'll take several hundred posts, given that it has to be done via one-liners
In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.
Seem is the right word. Because it states the fact that you don't really know whether it was the case or not.
"Wer Visionen hat, sollte zum Arzt gehen." - Helmut Schmidt
Consent is "Anglo-puritanism", now?
The light that once I thought compassion still casting shadows in your action
The words you shared were cold transactions that bring me to curse what you've done
When you're up there absorbed in greatness with such success you've grown complacent
I hope you scorch your many faces when you fly too close to the sun
Not sure what you mean about the woman not reliable with facts. She did what victims are supposed to do---immediately seek help and safety, call 911 police (ambulance as needed), follow their protocol for making statements and having a "rape kit" performed by professionals.
From police POV is shouldn't matter what VIP the victim or suspect is, or their 'social station'. It's not the arresting officer's job to do background checks on either victim or suspect, that's for detectives to do later. Violence (including sexual assault) usually means handcuffs at the outset for everyone.
The victim doesn't decide the charges, the DA does that after meeting with police and physician, seeing the evidence and statements, and doing the line-up. I think you guys are confusing American press with our legal and justice systems. Our press can film and photograph anyone in public, even wearing handcuffs, getting out of a cop car, going into a police station. Cameras are also allowed in court rooms (unless the judge closes the court to press cameras). The only exception is made for minors.
Hope is the denial of reality
What's with all the links? Post the text!
Decoding DSK
What his fall says about transatlantic differences in attitudes to sex, power and the law
May 19th 2011 | from the print edition
“I DID warn him!” These were the words supposedly uttered by France’s president, Nicolas Sarkozy, when he heard that Dominique Strauss-Kahn had been arrested in New York on charges of attempting to rape a hotel maid. When “DSK” moved to Washington, DC, in 2007 to take up his duties as the boss of the IMF, Mr Sarkozy is said to have told him to check his passions: he was going to a country that had come close to hounding Bill Clinton out of office for having an affair with a White House intern.
In matters of sex, as of war, Europeans are from Venus. They mock Americans’ puritanism about the sex lives of public figures. For a politician to cheat on his wife in America is a sign of dishonesty. Witness the opprobrium heaped on Arnold Schwarzenegger over the new revelation that he had fathered a child out of wedlock. In much of Europe, affairs can be a badge of virility. That is the insinuation of an interview given by none other than Mr Strauss-Kahn’s wife, Anne Sinclair. Asked in 2006 whether she minded her husband’s reputation, she replied: “No, I’m rather proud of it! It’s important for a politician to seduce. As long as he seduces me and I seduce him, that’s enough for me.”
Nowhere is the politician’s entitlement to sex more tolerated than, perhaps, in Italy. For Silvio Berlusconi, the country’s longest-serving prime minister in modern times, sexual appetite is a matter of pride, not of shame. He is on trial, charged with paying for sex with an underage prostitute. (He also faces a range of corruption charges.) But there are no handcuffs for Il Cavaliere. “I love life and I love women,” he declares cheerily.
Americans (and, it is true, many Europeans) are mystified by Mr Berlusconi’s ability to survive the tales of his lurid “bunga-bunga” parties. Europeans are bemused by the uptightness of American public life, in which a blow job in the White House can lead to the impeachment of a president. But the case of Mr Strauss-Kahn is about more than sex. Dig deeper and you uncover a number of telling differences in transatlantic attitudes.
One question is: how much privacy should public figures enjoy? American intrusiveness may seem distasteful to Europeans. For their part, Americans do not understand how prominent personalities in Britain can obtain “super-injunctions” preventing journalists from reporting some peccadillo or even the existence of the injunction.
European tolerance of cavorting politicians carries the risk of creating a culture of silence and immunity that too easily blurs the lines between a consensual affair, harassment and outright assault. Henry Kissinger may have thought that power is the ultimate aphrodisiac. But power can also be a means of extorting sexual and other favours. If state and media conspire to keep quiet about the debauchery of politicians, might it not be easier to hide other misdeeds, such as corruption?
When Mr Strauss-Kahn was up for the IMF job, Jean Quatremer, a correspondent for Libération, a French newspaper, was one of the few voices expressing concern about his libertine ways. His attitude towards women, blogged Mr Quatremer, was “too insistent, often brushing close to harassment. A trait known to the media, but about which nobody speaks (we are in France).” Mr Quatremer warned that the IMF was infused with “Anglo-Saxon mores” and that France could not afford a scandal.
With hindsight it looked complacently eager to avoid one. In 2007 Tristane Banon, a young writer, gave a televised account of what she claimed was an attack on her by Mr Strauss-Kahn when she interviewed him for a book in 2002. The programme attracted no attention when first screened, in part because it appeared on an obscure cable channel. But it now makes for compelling viewing. DSK’s name was bleeped out as Ms Banon described him to a table of dining companions as “a rutting chimpanzee” and recounted fighting him off on the floor. Later, she said, DSK would send her creepy texts asking: “Do I frighten you?” She thought about pressing charges but did not want to be known “until the end of my days as the girl who had had a problem with a politician”. Ms Banon’s account would not make her the first female journalist to be harassed by a powerful man. But what is intriguing about this tale is that Mr Strauss-Kahn’s name did not leak, as it surely would have done in America or Britain.
Walk of shame
Perhaps inevitably, given the fame of Mr Strauss-Kahn and the anonymity of the chambermaid, more attention has been paid to the tribulations of the former IMF chief than to the plight of his alleged victim. Indeed, the images of Mr Strauss-Kahn in handcuffs during his “perp walk” are regarded by many in France as an assault on the defendant’s dignity, part of a flawed system of justice that places too much emphasis on retribution at the expense of the rights of the accused.
In France parading suspects in public is banned. In Britain, once a defendant is charged, until a trial is concluded only court proceedings may be reported. The aim is to avoid prejudicing jurors. Justice in these countries tends to be a sober affair, insulated as far as possible from external tumult. In America it is more theatrical, with lawyers fighting their case over the airwaves and cameras filming battles in the courtroom. To Americans this is all evidence of great openness.
Beyond such differences in legal cultures, one fact is inescapable. In America a modest African immigrant has obtained a swift response from the police to her complaint of sexual assault. Mr Strauss-Kahn’s innocence or guilt will be determined in court. But New York’s authorities have not shirked from arresting the head of one of the world’s leading international bodies, nor from demanding that he be kept in jail on remand. It is worth asking: would this have happened in Paris or Rome?
Texts don't fit a line, links do.
Or Geneva? No that was a dictators son not a IMF president.It is worth asking: would this have happened in Paris or Rome?
"Wer Visionen hat, sollte zum Arzt gehen." - Helmut Schmidt
You understand that if you're on trial for rape, you're not really on trial for being under the illusion of being the greatest lover of all times? That annoying women with innuendo while trying to get them to have sex with you is not quite the same as ripping off their clothes and perform things on them that under normal circumstances could be considered having sex?
Congratulations America
If you reply to something it may help to put one-line replies into their contexts.
About the woman; I think she is lying about details, that makes me think she is lying about what happened.
Wiggin and I were not talking about whether or not the police should give VIP's special treatment, we were discussing if they get special treatment from the hospitality industry. I think they do, he thinks we're all equal before the cleaning lady.
Randblade was committing the crime of making DSK's character a part of what is on trial. That is not the case; what needs to be proven is that he attacked one particular woman, and that he raped this woman. Not that he is full of his own attractiveness to all other women.
Congratulations America
Hazir, I'm trying to understand why you think the woman is lying? What "details" have been made public that leads you to that (premature) conclusion?
The rest of what I said was an attempt to explain how the US treats violent assault accusations for victim and suspect. And that our press is very different than Europe's.
(If Sofitel had given DSK special treatment, called in their corporate attorney and tried to smooth things over in-house, behind closed doors, or ushered him in secrecy to police HQ in a limo....the press would get wind of that, and Americans would be angry. Hospitality industry isn't given a free pass to choose which laws they follow. Fairly sure our employment laws require work-place assault be reported to police, and police follow a protocol.)
Regarding "special treatment" for VIPs or very wealthy people. Do you think this is special treatment, or is he at a disadvantage due to his notoriety, powerful connections, and rich wife?
Does France have the option of House Arrest like this?
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...Tabs%3DarticleThe idea of house arrest was originally devised largely by defendants and their lawyers as an alternative to a jail facility in cases when, in a judge's eyes, a defendant may have the money, connections and incentive to flee prior to trial.
For instance, convicted Ponzi schemer Bernard Madoff was confined to his Manhattan apartment under surveillance for months before pleading guilty in 2009. Armed guards were stationed in the apartment of former lawyer Marc Dreier prior to his 2009 guilty plea on fraud and other charges in an alleged scheme to sell $700 million in fictitious promissory notes.
Once he finds permanent housing, Mr. Strauss-Kahn will be able to leave his residence only for court appearances, meetings with lawyers, medical appointments and a weekly religious observance, and prosecutors must be notified at least six hours in advance, according to the bail order. Guards will "immediately notify the appropriate law enforcement authorities of [Mr. Strauss-Kahn's] attempt to flee," or if they use force or notice any suspicious activity, according to a security protocol released Friday.
.......
Furthermore, the cost of house arrest, typically borne by the defendant, can be very high.
Among the first defendants placed under the type of house arrest that applies to Mr. Strauss-Kahn were Mahender and Varsha Sabhnani, a Long Island couple accused of keeping a pair of Indonesian housekeepers as virtual prisoners in their home. Their home detention began in 2007 and ran for more than two years, from the time they were first let out on bail until after their convictions as they waited to start their prison terms. It cost $150,000 a month and more than $2.5 million, according to submissions by Mr. Sabhnani's lawyers in court.
Prosecutors said the arrest detail for Mr. Strauss-Kahn has been priced at $200,000 per month. Still, lawyers said, compared with jail, home arrest is worth the money.
To spell it out for you I think she lied about :Hazir, I'm trying to understand why you think the woman is lying? What "details" have been made public that leads you to that (premature) conclusion?
The rest of what I said was an attempt to explain how the US treats violent assault accusations for victim and suspect. And that our press is very different than Europe's.
(If Sofitel had given DSK special treatment, called in their corporate attorney and tried to smooth things over in-house, behind closed doors, or ushered him in secrecy to police HQ in a limo....the press would get wind of that, and Americans would be angry. Hospitality industry isn't given a free pass to choose which laws they follow. Fairly sure our employment laws require work-place assault be reported to police, and police follow a protocol.)
1. not knowing who he was
2. about being ambushed
3. about being assaulted
4. about being raped
I do also think she is lying because she saw a great opportunity to either get a lot of money out of DSK or her employer.
I can also tell you that it's no use trying to convince me to the contrary on the basis of the crazy idea that your legal system is more fair to 'the little people' just because people whose jobs depend on votes parade VIPs in front of a dozen of camera's just to show off how tough they really really really are.
Congratulations America
And what are you basing your beliefs about the character of this woman, and her motivations on?
You have zero evidence for your beliefs about any of these four with the tiny possible exception of a chain of reasoning (though no evidence) for #1.
As far as I can tell there is no evidence to support this accusation either.I do also think she is lying because she saw a great opportunity to either get a lot of money out of DSK or her employer.
So... essentially you're just calling a rape victim a liar because you don't believe her.
She alleged that Strauss-Kahn came out of his bathroom naked, ran after her, attempted to forcibly have intercourse with her, and forced her to submit to anal sex and to perform oral sex.
The light that once I thought compassion still casting shadows in your action
The words you shared were cold transactions that bring me to curse what you've done
When you're up there absorbed in greatness with such success you've grown complacent
I hope you scorch your many faces when you fly too close to the sun
Well. It may, may have something to do with a) the nationality of Strauss-Kahn b) the nation where he's being accused. But you didn't hear that from me.
The light that once I thought compassion still casting shadows in your action
The words you shared were cold transactions that bring me to curse what you've done
When you're up there absorbed in greatness with such success you've grown complacent
I hope you scorch your many faces when you fly too close to the sun
That's what she claims that happened yes. Randblade however seems to think his entire life is on trial. It is not.
Congratulations America
Oh, so now it has been proven she's a rape victim? What do you base that upon other than what she claims?
Congratulations America
You do realize that DSK is far from the richest guy to stay at that hotel, right? Why not go after richer people?
Hope is the denial of reality
Who knows... for all I know they had sex and then she thought she could get some money out of it.You do realize that DSK is far from the richest guy to stay at that hotel, right? Why not go after richer people?
Congratulations America
That just about sums it up.
The point is that you don't know. You have no way of knowing. It's one thing to say that we should let the judicial process play out before we say that DSK is guilty. It's quite another to slander the accuser just because there's a chance she might be lying. Virtually every specific claim against her has already been refuted anyway. This is little better than the 9/11 conspiracy BS, except you're attempting to destroy the life of someone who's still alive.
On the 9/11 point, every time your side makes a ludicrous claim and it gets disproven, just for your side to make a new ludicrous claim. At no point is there an apology for making the previous claim.
Hope is the denial of reality
Yeah right, 'let justice run it's course', as people talk about 'rape victims' and try to tell us how wonderful their system is where even a "fat cat like DSK can't get away with rape' or start publishing nice little tidbits in the paper to explain to people how many cleaning staff get harrassed and raped.
If anything DSK is getting a guilty verdict handed down in the American press on a basis no less flimsy than mine for thinking this is all just a big set up to get some cash out of a rich guy and or a hotel owner.
P.S. I see the NYT is serializing sexual harrassment of hotel staff now.
Last edited by Hazir; 05-23-2011 at 10:01 PM.
Congratulations America
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