So, did he or didn't he?

[Aimless]

As for the final point; there are more than enough examples of horrible rape stories that turned out to be mere fabrications. They have in common that the 'victim' are giving it to the interrogators in living colours.

This I'd like to learn more about, because at first glance it sounds like anecdote rendered extremely unreliable by bias (eg. clearly remembering a few cases of false rape accusations and letting those have an overly strong influence on views on rape in general). Yeah yeah I get it you're your own person we're just smarty-pants on the internet you don't have to justify yourself to nobody we're not your dad yada yada. I'm just saying... "more than enough"? "They have in common"?

[Timbuk2]

This has turned rather ugly, Hazir. Perhaps you should change the title of this thread or start a new one.

Change it to what?

So, he didn't.

[Hazir]

You're an idiot Hazir.

Trying to show you can't read by not understanding that to get his sperm in her mouth he must have raped her and not just have tried to rape her?

Seriously, you see this as some type of FEMINIST SHIT? WTF is up with that?

What you've read in the press (whether it's US or European sources) is only relevant in triggering pre-existing bias. Your biases are quite clear, and it's disturbing on so many levels. You don't believe women's rape charges, you automatically assume a hotel maid is a gold-digger making false accusations against a VIP French banker/politician, you don't believe the US legal system is legitimate, you don't believe our press or media.....yet you make sweeping, premature judgments about all of this, based on what you've read in the press?

This has turned rather ugly, Hazir. Perhaps you should change the title of this thread or start a new one.

I don't believe this particular woman's claim.

And otherwise yes, your legal system is a fucked up mix of grandstanding and inequality.

[Hazir]

This I'd like to learn more about, because at first glance it sounds like anecdote rendered extremely unreliable by bias (eg. clearly remembering a few cases of false rape accusations and letting those have an overly strong influence on views on rape in general). Yeah yeah I get it you're your own person we're just smarty-pants on the internet you don't have to justify yourself to nobody we're not your dad yada yada. I'm just saying... "more than enough"? "They have in common"?

A little google taught me there is a website called http://falserapesociety.blogspot.com/ have fun with it

[wiggin]

So just because she claims she was raped she is somehow more reliable than if she had said he had tried to kill her? Just because you and Wiggin buy into feminist shit about rape doesn't mean I have to.

You do realize my logic works for, say, victims of sexual abuse (who may not be women) just as well as it does for rape victims. It has nothing to do with feminism. In fact, I think the logic should hold for any violent assault - charges should be taken extremely seriously and not dismissed out of hand on the basis of 'feelings'.

@OG; you appear to be taken in by the attempts of wiggin to log me in with people like Levi who can't concieve of a man like DSK being capable of raping a woman. He may very well be such a man, but I seriously doubt he did it in this particular case.

Dude, this isn't some weird rhetorical device I'm using. You have zero evidence for your rather outlandish claims, which implies to everyone here that you made up your mind about the result beforehand. I don't know if you think it's because DSK is a good guy, or you don't believe rape victims in general, or some weird Euro-fetish thing. Honestly, I don't care. But it's completely unreasonable.

Oh, and clearly since there's a blogspot page for the 'false rape society' it's a major societal issue compared to the truly unacceptable number of rapes that happen in the world today - including the developed, 'civilized' world.

[Hazir]

Oh well, I am horrible for thinking of her as a liar, you're justified in thinking of him as guilty. Seems to me the only difference is that I am honest about where the feeling comes from and you are bullshitting.

I didn't know that site existed, only a glance at their first page shows 3 news reports about false rape claims.

[GGT]

Trying to show you can't read by not understanding that to get his sperm in her mouth he must have raped her and not just have tried to rape her?
I don't believe this particular woman's claim.

Where did you read that his sperm was found in her mouth? Are you making stuff up now? DSK's DNA was found on her shirt. Maid's DNA was found on the carpet. (According to news sources that may or may not be totally accurate, remember.)

Now you're trying to say charges of attempted rape aren't credible, because she really was raped, because you "read somewhere" that his sperm was found in her mouth? OMG Hazir, make up your mind what you're actually complaining about!

And otherwise yes, your legal system is a fucked up mix of grandstanding and inequality.

Assuming that's true (and often that is true) what's that got to do with your creepy attitude toward women's claims of sexual assault, attempted rape, or rape? What's that got to do with your bias against hotel maids being credible victims, if the perp is an important European?

Would you look at this differently if it had been, say, FDIC chairman Sheila Bair being accused of sexual assault by a male porter in a French hotel?

[RandBlade]

That's what she claims that happened yes. Randblade however seems to think his entire life is on trial. It is not.

I do not.

One question is: how much privacy should public figures enjoy? American intrusiveness may seem distasteful to Europeans. For their part, Americans do not understand how prominent personalities in Britain can obtain “super-injunctions” preventing journalists from reporting some peccadillo or even the existence of the injunction.

To be fair Brits do not like that either and are openly revolting against it. I created a thread about this (that got very little attention).

The idea of a superinjuction like this is a very modern one and stems from European, not British law. British traditions are for a very open, often intrusive and aggressive media - something I like. Judges have adopted European law to create this idea of a privacy law and it isn't popular being subverted completely by both Twitter and politicians. I hope that Twitter and Parliamentary Priviledge combined can kill this ridiculous notion of gagging the press.

[Aimless]

A little google taught me there is a website called http://falserapesociety.blogspot.com/ have fun with it

I'm glad you linked to that particular blog. I'm not saying it's wholly untrustworthy, but among the most substantial claims it can make with some level of credibility is that the prevalence of false rape accusations in some place somewhere is higher than 2%. And that post is riddled with problems such as double standards. I'm not denying that false rape accusations do occur, and I'm not even denying that they may occur with some frequency or that they have severe consequences--the cockups in the British child-porn cases come to mind--but this seems like fitting data to a prior agenda.

The single most important factor that's driving this discussion is your prior opinion that this woman is a lying gold-digger who's falsely accusing DSK of rape. Of course the second most important factor is probably the opinion that you're outta whack the "facts" on either side are at present immaterial no matter how hard we try to shoehorn them into our various positions. Why? Because we know next to nothing about the case itself and even if we did ffs we aren't anything close to being experts who're able to judge the reliability of a claim no matter which blogs we read on our free time. What we do know about are peripheral things like the issue with the "perp walk"

[Hazir]

Yeah whatever, you know exactly what I am like with women because I believe this particular one is a liar, and what's even worse, I think a 'rape victim' is a liar. With the nonsense being published about this case it's not so difficult to understand why people come to conclusions. There were false reports about his DNA, there were reports about her saliva somewhere. Blame me for connecting the dots. Of course I was wrong to think truth had any relevance to the reporters.

What you people don't understand that my job consists on a daily basis of sifting through mountains of information to establish the truth. I have learned over the last nine years that my gut feelings are important indicators. My decisions are tested in court an hardly ever are overturned. If you deal with bullshitters every day, bullshitter's stories are easy to pick out.

[Hazir]

I'm glad you linked to that particular blog. I'm not saying it's wholly untrustworthy, but among the most substantial claims it can make with some level of credibility is that the prevalence of false rape accusations in some place somewhere is higher than 2%. And that post is riddled with problems such as double standards. I'm not denying that false rape accusations do occur, and I'm not even denying that they may occur with some frequency or that they have severe consequences--the cockups in the British child-porn cases come to mind--but this seems like fitting data to a prior agenda.

The single most important factor that's driving this discussion is your prior opinion that this woman is a lying gold-digger who's falsely accusing DSK of rape. Of course the second most important factor is probably the opinion that you're outta whack the "facts" on either side are at present immaterial no matter how hard we try to shoehorn them into our various positions. Why? Because we know next to nothing about the case itself and even if we did ffs we aren't anything close to being experts who're able to judge the reliability of a claim no matter which blogs we read on our free time. What we do know about are peripheral things like the issue with the "perp walk"

Yeah, I am looking at the situation with different eyes. The eyes of somebody who gets lied to so often that you don't take anybody's word for anything.

Looking at Wiggin and GGT (mostly them anyway) in this topic is really interesting; they have pre-concieved ideas about this case (assumption of guilt) yet think they are in a position to hector against me because I am a creep with pre-concieved ideas

[Aimless]

While I find many of the posts on that blog to be objectionable, I'd like to recommend the following post for consideration:

http://falserapesociety.blogspot.com...-never-as.html

In support of the otherwise universal norm that punishing the innocent is worse than letting the guilty get away. In the context of non-legal punishment (eg. being crucified by the media and by the public) it's an interesting discussion.

[GGT]

You people? Your gut feelings have been "tested and confirmed" in European court of law, therefore....your gut instincts trump US criminal charges and court proceedings that haven't even happened yet? And you have the nerve to say the US system is messed up?

You are the one BULLSHITTING here, Hazir.

[Hazir]

You people? Your gut feelings have been "tested and confirmed" in European court of law, therefore....your gut instincts trump US criminal charges and court proceedings that haven't even happened yet? And you have the nerve to say the US system is messed up?

You are the one BULLSHITTING here, Hazir.

9 years of sifting through lies you idiot. Lies that are told to me by people who'll do everything to make me believe them. I've had more people cry in front of me to underpin their bullshit stories than all of you put together times 10.

[Aimless]

Yeah, I am looking at the situation with different eyes. The eyes of somebody who gets lied to so often that you don't take anybody's word for anything.

I can understand that, but I think it's problematic to let experiences with other people erode one's ability to show respect to an unknown person. We've had discussions in this community about the notion that even basic respect and kindness and the like has to be earned, and for my part I can't accept that position. It's worse to condemn an innocent person--eg. by not according him the basic respect required to believe that he isn't lying through his teeth about everything he tells you for impure reasons--than it is to let a guilty cheat go free (eg. by showing him respect you don't think he deserves).

As with rape so with basic human interaction, esp. in a professional context.

[Aimless]

And here's another problematic thing: if the story's too good, it's probably a lie. But if the story's not too good, it's probably a lie. How does one win this fight?

[Hazir]

While I find many of the posts on that blog to be objectionable, I'd like to recommend the following post for consideration:

http://falserapesociety.blogspot.com...-never-as.html

In support of the otherwise universal norm that punishing the innocent is worse than letting the guilty get away. In the context of non-legal punishment (eg. being crucified by the media and by the public) it's an interesting discussion.

Just so that you know; I didn't know the site and probably you've looked at it longer now than I have before I gave you that link.

By the way there is a huge debate about the percentage of false claims of rape. 2% appears to be on the lower side of the debate, 8% was the result of a british/english project (IIRC) though there was a lot of debate if the researchers used the right parameters. Guess 8% was more than the opponents were willing to accept.

[Hazir]

I can understand that, but I think it's problematic to let experiences with other people erode one's ability to show respect to an unknown person. We've had discussions in this community about the notion that even basic respect and kindness and the like has to be earned, and for my part I can't accept that position. It's worse to condemn an innocent person--eg. by not according him the basic respect required to believe that he isn't lying through his teeth about everything he tells you for impure reasons--than it is to let a guilty cheat go free (eg. by showing him respect you don't think he deserves).

As with rape so with basic human interaction, esp. in a professional context.

Hmm.. I don't really feel I am obliged to show respect to a person who is not even remotely connected to where I write my opinions where the other side of that conflict of interests has already been dragged through the mud and was forced out of his job. No harshness in the way I express myself about that will ever bring balance to that. And if she was raped, then I was wrong. But so what?

[wiggin]

Oh well, I am horrible for thinking of her as a liar, you're justified in thinking of him as guilty. Seems to me the only difference is that I am honest about where the feeling comes from and you are bullshitting.

Yeah, I am looking at the situation with different eyes. The eyes of somebody who gets lied to so often that you don't take anybody's word for anything.

Looking at Wiggin and GGT (mostly them anyway) in this topic is really interesting; they have pre-concieved ideas about this case (assumption of guilt) yet think they are in a position to hector against me because I am a creep with pre-concieved ideas

I would like to direct you to my first two posts here:

Honestly, Hazir, what's the point of the poll? Is law a popularity contest?

Whether or not he did it, unless he can very quickly and very convincingly refute the charges, his political career is over. The French are willing to overlook a lot of sexual improprieties in their politicians, but sexual assault is not one of them.

Of course it's possible; innocent until proven guilty and all. He should get the same protections afforded any other accused criminal. It doesn't change the fact that a poll is utterly meaningless. Neither you nor I have any data whatsoever as to his guilt or innocence. Why make a poll on it?

I don't get this. Do you honestly think there's some conspiracy to carry out character assassination? Oh, I suppose the maid could have made it up, but it seems awfully far-fetched that some part of the US government is trying to discredit a French politician by charging him with sexual assault. This is an incredibly high profile case, and I doubt their ability to carry out such an elaborate farce for such ridiculous ends.

Honestly, I feel like people are just willing to believe conspiracy theories because they're fun or something. I heard plenty of similar things about OBL's death, though it's obviously a ridiculous suggestion that he wasn't found and killed.

I think I've been pretty clear that I don't know if DSK is guilty or not.

[GGT]

Yeah, I am looking at the situation with different eyes. The eyes of somebody who gets lied to so often that you don't take anybody's word for anything.

Looking at Wiggin and GGT (mostly them anyway) in this topic is really interesting; they have pre-concieved ideas about this case (assumption of guilt) yet think they are in a position to hector against me because I am a creep with pre-concieved ideas

That would be more of your bias and bullshitting. Wiggin and I (and plenty others) know full well that both accuser AND accused are given the same presumption to be telling the truth. We don't dismiss a victim's claim outright, and we don't dismiss a suspect's innocence-until-proven-guilty, either. That's why we use police, forensics, attorneys, and due process to sort these things out.

You're the only one who's made pre-conclusions here. Everyone else has taken the stance that a court of law needs to sort this out, with proof. Both victim and accused are believable from the outset.

[Hazir]

And here's another problematic thing: if the story's too good, it's probably a lie. But if the story's not too good, it's probably a lie. How does one win this fight?

Well, I would say that in a situation like the DSK / hotel maid one the forensic evidence should easily make up for the 'not too good' story. Actually, isn't it likely that post stress trauma actually reduces a person't ability to remember details of the traumatizing events?

[Hazir]

I would like to direct you to my first two posts here:


I think I've been pretty clear that I don't know if DSK is guilty or not.

But you made up your mind that 'she' is a rape victim. You can't have it both ways.

[GGT]

But you made up your mind that 'she' is a rape victim. You can't have it both ways.

He did not. None of us did. We acknowledged a woman's claim to being sexually assaulted. Those claims are taken at face value until proven otherwise. WTF is wrong with you?

[Aimless]

Nah man I was talking about irl, when you meet someone. In the context of rape, taking into consideration that about 9 out of 10 aren't lying and one of the remaining two is mentally ill. As for the interwebs, I have no idea about this forum, but I think it's reasonable to assume that whenever you're in a large mixed company--esp. one so full of so very broken individuals *mwah*--you've got a significant chance of hurting someone with the opinions you spout, whether they're about men, women, the poor, the unemployed, the black, the white, the alleged rape victims, etc. Even if you've no malicious intent and even though we're disembodied brain-simulations. Has anyone here been sexually abused? Does anyone here have a friend or loved one who's been sexually abused? I don't know, and neither do you, and unless we enjoy tearing up old wounds that's a good reason to be gentle when discussing a rape case.

[wiggin]

But you made up your mind that 'she' is a rape victim. You can't have it both ways.

Don't be a dick; you know that the context of my posting had to do with a priori believing those who claim to be rape victims in order to encourage reporting and such, not to prejudice the outcome of a trial.

[Steely Glint]

Just because you and Wiggin buy into feminist shit about rape doesn't mean I have to.

Can you just clarify what "feminist shit" about rape is, here?

[Aimless]

It's tricky innit. We have to believe or at least respect both sides at the same time. You said earlier that he's being treated like any other person accused of rape, and that treatment (the one everyone gets) isn't necessarily good.

[Hazir]

Can you just clarify what "feminist shit" about rape is, here?

The assumption that the woman who is accusing somebody of rape is telling the truth. A perverse reversion of the situation where a claim of rape is per definition not taken serious. What is done is replacing one type of innocent victim (rape victim) with another type of innocent victim (falsely accused man). The underlying logic would be that there is such a gross underreporting of rape in society that if somebody is brave enough to report it must be thruthfully doing so. It destroys the life of a person accused in a way that we would find unacceptable in any other situation.

[Hazir]

Nah man I was talking about irl, when you meet someone. In the context of rape, taking into consideration that about 9 out of 10 aren't lying and one of the remaining two is mentally ill. As for the interwebs, I have no idea about this forum, but I think it's reasonable to assume that whenever you're in a large mixed company--esp. one so full of so very broken individuals *mwah*--you've got a significant chance of hurting someone with the opinions you spout, whether they're about men, women, the poor, the unemployed, the black, the white, the alleged rape victims, etc. Even if you've no malicious intent and even though we're disembodied brain-simulations. Has anyone here been sexually abused? Does anyone here have a friend or loved one who's been sexually abused? I don't know, and neither do you, and unless we enjoy tearing up old wounds that's a good reason to be gentle when discussing a rape case.

Well, you do have a point there, but it is my conviction that one of the worst mistakes you can make in a person - to - person contact is thinking for the other.

[Hazir]

Don't be a dick; you know that the context of my posting had to do with a priori believing those who claim to be rape victims in order to encourage reporting and such, not to prejudice the outcome of a trial.

If only the retribution that is supposed to come at the end of the trial IF guilt has been established weren't meted out well before by that approach.

Let's assume that DSK is found not guilty; will he be able to recover his old position? Will he head the IMF again? Will he be a serious contender for the French presidency again? Will he be able to recover the money he lost on his defense and/or his present house arrest? You know and I know that his public life is finished no matter what. And the reason for that is that we are being told that rape is underreported and we really therefore should encourage reporting it by respecting the claims of the accuser .