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Thread: US Supreme Court might Consider Gay Marriage

  1. #1

    Default US Supreme Court might Consider Gay Marriage

    With 13.9 million people unemployed, two million more than when Barack Obama took office, the economy is at the forefront of the 2012 campaign, already underway with a crop of GOP candidates eager to criticize president's policies.

    But don't discount same-sex marriage as a potent influence on voters in this election cycle. Next year, the Supreme Court might consider the constitutionality of one section of the 1996 Defense of Marriage Act, or DOMA, which defines marriage as the union of one man and one woman.

    If the Supreme Court agreed prior to Election Day that it would consider a challenge to DOMA, that would place the marriage issue squarely in the middle of the presidential campaign.

    “We’ve said that DOMA, the Defense of Marriage Act, is unconstitutional,” President Barack Obama said in his press conference Wednesday. “We cannot defend the federal government poking its nose into what states are doing and putting the thumb on the scale against same-sex couples.”

    Asked whether he personally supports same-sex marriages, Obama replied, "I’m not going to make news on that today.”

    But he praised the New York legislature for passing a law last week legalizing same-sex marriages in the state. New York is now one of six states that issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples.

    Traditional marriage the law in most states

    Thirty-seven states have statutes defining marriage in traditional man-woman terms. Additionally, 30 states define marriage that way in their state constitutions.

    “It is important for us to work through these issues, because each community is going to be different and each state is going to be different,” Obama said Wednesday.

    But a Supreme Court DOMA case might force the president to face the implications of the justices changing the states’ marriage laws, rather than the state legislatures changing them.

    It wasn’t immediately clear if Obama’s “unconstitutional” comment applied only to Section 3 of the law, which is the Justice Department’s position, or if he now thinks the entire law is invalid.

    He had said on previous occasions that Congress ought to repeal the entire law. He has also called DOMA “wrong” and “unfair,” but has not called the entire law unconstitutional.

    Section 3 of DOMA says that in interpreting federal law, “the word ‘marriage’ means only a legal union between one man and one woman as husband and wife.”

    State allowed to refuse to recognize other states' marriages

    A separate section of DOMA allows states to refuse to recognize same-sex marriages performed in other states.

    Attorney General Eric Holder announced last February that the Justice Department would no longer defend the constitutionality of Section 3 of the law in the battles underway in federal courts across the nation.

    The ongoing case that’s most advanced is one from Massachusetts, where last July federal district court judge Joseph Tauro struck down Section 3 of DOMA, saying it “lacks a rational basis” and denies equal protection of the laws to same-sex couples.

    The plaintiffs in that case sought health benefits for spouses of federal employees, the right to file joint federal income tax returns, and other benefits.

    The timing of the Supreme Court scheduling a DOMA case for its docket is far from certain, although legal experts agree that if the U.S. Court of Appeals for the First Circuit upholds Tauro’s ruling, the high court would almost surely agree to hear the case.

    2012 battleground states

    Nine states which are among the likely 2012 presidential battlegrounds have provisions in their constitutions asserting that marriage is the union of one man and one woman. Those states are Ohio, Virginia, Florida, Arizona, Colorado, Michigan, Missouri, Nevada, and Wisconsin.
    Obama won seven of those states in the 2008 election. Eight of those nine states have Senate races next year, most of which are expected to be competitive.

    Could 2012 be another 2004, when the issue motivated conservative voters in Ohio and other states?

    In 2004, Ohio voters approved that state’s marriage amendment with 62 percent. Social conservatives were highly energized to vote, both to preserve the traditional definition of marriage and to support George W. Bush, who’d signaled his intention to nominate conservatives to fill the vacancies that were looming on the Supreme Court.

    (After he won re-election, his kept his word, appointing Chief Justice John Roberts and Justice Samuel Alito.)

    Story: Obama again stops short of endorsing gay marriage

    Bush won Ohio by more than 118,000 votes. If Bush had lost Ohio, Democrat John Kerry would have won the White House.

    In addition to Ohio, 10 other states in 2004 approved ballot measures banning same-sex marriage — and in most of those states, they approved them by overwhelming margins.

    2012 might not turn out like 2004: for one thing, concerns like unemployment, the national debt and a crisis anywhere from North Korea to Iran may dominate voters’ thinking.

    There’s also some dispute about just how significant the marriage issue was in helping Bush win in 2004.

    What happened in Ohio?

    In his statistical analysis of the 2004 election data, Stanford University political scientist Simon Jackman found that the presence of marriage initiatives on ballots of 11 states increased voter turnout by about 3 percent, but did not appear to boost Bush’s vote share, compared to 2000. Jackman’s county-by-county analysis in Ohio showed that support for the marriage ballot measure did not seem related to changes in voter turnout.

    But a veteran expert on Ohio elections, political scientist John Green, director of the Institute of Applied Politics at the University of Akron said, “I'm convinced that the marriage amendment in Ohio made a difference in 2004 in two respects. By far the most important was the mobilization of religious activists, whose work on balance helped mobilize conservative voters. The second and smaller impact was on the Bush vote.”

    Video: President defends record on gay rights

    Green said typically an increase in voter turnout would have helped Kerry because Democratic voters are the least likely to vote.

    “And yet Bush got a much larger share of that increased turnout than Republicans typically get — and much of this turnout was in Republican areas among folks with conservative sympathies. So in a very close election, Bush got a crucial boost in the GOP base,” Green said.

    In next year’s election Ohio conservative activists could turn out in large numbers "but, of course, these folks already oppose Obama, so it would be hard to tell if it was because of DOMA or all the other things they don't like about the president.”

    A ruling with wider implications?

    If the justices agree to hear the challenge to Section 3 of DOMA and strike it down, then “the question is whether the rationale on which the court would strike it down could plausibly be limited and not have implications for the other sections of DOMA and for the marriage laws of the states that don’t authorize same-sex marriage,” said Ed Whelan, president of The Ethics and Public Policy Center, a conservative think tank.

    Whelan, a former law clerk for Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia, served in the Justice Department’s Office of Legal Counsel during the Bush administration.

    He added, “Same-sex marriage supporters recognize that that the very grounds on which President Obama now says Section 3 of DOMA is unconstitutional would also require him to take the position that traditional marriage laws are unconstitutional — a position that he has declined to take.”

    Story: Rhode Island lawmakers approve civil unions

    Dale Carpenter, a law professor at University of Minnesota and a supporter of same-sex marriage, said that if the high court strikes down Section 3 of DOMA it would prompt questions about the validity of state laws that say the same thing: that marriage can only be between one man and one woman.

    “One would be very hard pressed to come up with an argument that struck down the federal definition of marriage, but nevertheless left in place the state definitions of marriage as the union of one man and one woman,” Carpenter said.

    The effect of a high court ruling, if and when one comes, “depends on how the decisions are written: you could write a very broad federal DOMA decision striking down the Defense of Marriage Act, that does really call into question the individual state definitions, by saying that gay and lesbian couples can’t be discriminated against and the government has no good reason for doing so.”

    Or, he said, the justices could write a much narrower decision that said the federal government in applying specific laws had no reason to distinguish between different types of married couples.

    “It has been rare in the history of the court for the justices to buck a national consensus on any issue for very long,” Carpenter said. “It’s much more likely that the court will follow a national consensus rather than to lead a national consensus. The one notable exception to that in the past few decades was Roe v. Wade,” the court’s 1973 abortion ruling.

    He added, “To the extent that there is still a broad national consensus in state law in favor of the traditional understanding of marriage, that makes a successful challenge to marriage laws much less likely to succeed.”
    Source

    More good news for supporters of gay civil rights coming in the wake of New York's legalization of same-sex marriage. If the Supreme Court does go through with this and consider the issue, I'm not sure what the chances are of it overturning the DoMA, but it'll probably be a close vote.

  2. #2
    I do hope the Supreme Court decides to hear this case, and furthermore what seems so obvious to many of us, (that it is unconstitutional) is seen in the same light by the courts.

  3. #3
    I hope they hear it too, but honestly I really really don't want this to be a Campaign 2012 issue. It will push the election in all the wrong directions.

  4. #4
    I agree with you there. I'm all for gay rights, but it should not be the central issue of a Presidential election.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    Source

    More good news for supporters of gay civil rights coming in the wake of New York's legalization of same-sex marriage. If the Supreme Court does go through with this and consider the issue, I'm not sure what the chances are of it overturning the DoMA, but it'll probably be a close vote.
    Don't you think your thread title is a bit misleading, Wraith? I.e. that it's flat out wrong?
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  6. #6
    "US Supreme Court to Consider Considering the Legal Definition of Marriage As Defined by the Defence Of Marriage Act" seemed a bit long...

    edit: I can get it a bit closer, though. Changed the title. Is this better?

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    I agree with you there. I'm all for gay rights, but it should not be the central issue of a Presidential election.
    I think politicians think it matters more than the public. Even in good times, gay issues and abortion are not considered to be the most salient issues for a vast majority of the electorate. In fact, on average, they are the issues people care least about (from ones mentioned by politicians).
    Hope is the denial of reality

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    I think politicians think it matters more than the public. Even in good times, gay issues and abortion are not considered to be the most salient issues for a vast majority of the electorate. In fact, on average, they are the issues people care least about (from ones mentioned by politicians).
    I think you're forgetting that it is a highly emotional issue for a certain group of people. Important enough to organize against it, collect money, and campaign against it. Proposition 8, which was on this supposedly not so important issue did pass after all. Now, you can take out the 'research' again to prove that something like that couldn't happen, but the fact of the matter is that it did.
    Congratulations America

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    I think you're forgetting that it is a highly emotional issue for a certain group of people. Important enough to organize against it, collect money, and campaign against it. Proposition 8, which was on this supposedly not so important issue did pass after all. Now, you can take out the 'research' again to prove that something like that couldn't happen, but the fact of the matter is that it did.
    Who'd think that people would vote single-issue on a single-issue referendum. The point is that politicians' views on social policies has a minimal effect in the general election. Hard-core Republicans aren't going to vote Democrat just because their candidate isn't sufficiently socially conservative, and the same is true in reverse. Social issues might have an effect in the primaries, where the fringe is over-represented, but that's about it. Furthermore, during bad economic times, the economy trumps everything else.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    I think politicians think it matters more than the public. Even in good times, gay issues and abortion are not considered to be the most salient issues for a vast majority of the electorate. In fact, on average, they are the issues people care least about (from ones mentioned by politicians).
    Its the same as the EU in the UK.

    Every month for over 3 decades IPSOS-MORI has surveyed the public asking without prompting any answers "what is THE most important issue" for the country and then what are "the other main issues" for the country. The EU/EEC/Euro/EEA etc for the last 5-6 years or so has scored no more than 0-1% for the most important issue and no more than 2-3% total for important issues. The public just don't care.

    Yet the amount of media attention and a few extremist nutters going on-and-on-and-on about it ... for the rest of us its a settled issue.

  11. #11
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    I'd love to see an in-out vote on EU membership in the UK and see you eat your words.
    Congratulations America

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Who'd think that people would vote single-issue on a single-issue referendum. The point is that politicians' views on social policies has a minimal effect in the general election. Hard-core Republicans aren't going to vote Democrat just because their candidate isn't sufficiently socially conservative, and the same is true in reverse. Social issues might have an effect in the primaries, where the fringe is over-represented, but that's about it. Furthermore, during bad economic times, the economy trumps everything else.
    Yes, who'd think that they get off their fat asses and get organised. Organised people by definition get heard more by politicians.
    Congratulations America

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    "US Supreme Court to Consider Considering the Legal Definition of Marriage As Defined by the Defence Of Marriage Act" seemed a bit long...

    edit: I can get it a bit closer, though. Changed the title. Is this better?
    It's better. This is something that might happen, the cases are available to them if they should choose to actually take a look at them. Even "consider considering" would have been wrong because there's no indication that is happening. Those collegial discussions are held behind closed doors and if they are thinking about it, they've remained quiet so far.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    I'd love to see an in-out vote on EU membership in the UK and see you eat your words.
    Again you're one of the minority who cares.

    Yes, if there's a referendum then there could obviously be either outcome but as Loki said people will vote on single-issue matters in a single-issue referendum but that doesn't mean they care much or enough to change which politicians they'll vote for.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    I think politicians think it matters more than the public. Even in good times, gay issues and abortion are not considered to be the most salient issues for a vast majority of the electorate. In fact, on average, they are the issues people care least about (from ones mentioned by politicians).
    Euh. . . kinda. I don't know what the behavior on abortion is like but for gay marriage, the fact is that the issue has demonstrated a surprisingly large GOTV pull. It tends to get people who frequently don't vote to make the effort to go out and cast a ballot.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    Euh. . . kinda. I don't know what the behavior on abortion is like but for gay marriage, the fact is that the issue has demonstrated a surprisingly large GOTV pull. It tends to get people who frequently don't vote to make the effort to go out and cast a ballot.
    It probably has the same effect for the opponent as well...

    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    Yes, who'd think that they get off their fat asses and get organised. Organised people by definition get heard more by politicians.
    These groups get listened to precisely because most of the public is indifferent. Politicians aren't going to listen to a fringe group if the general population has strongly-held views about something.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  17. #17
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    So, the relevant group (people who will go to the ballot) is interested. That would be the target audience of a politician; people who vote, not joe six pack who can't be bothered to get registered.
    Congratulations America

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Again you're one of the minority who cares.

    Yes, if there's a referendum then there could obviously be either outcome but as Loki said people will vote on single-issue matters in a single-issue referendum but that doesn't mean they care much or enough to change which politicians they'll vote for.
    Interesting how I am 'one of the minority who cares' where I merely show an interest in the way how I am governed.
    Congratulations America

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    So, the relevant group (people who will go to the ballot) is interested. That would be the target audience of a politician; people who vote, not joe six pack who can't be bothered to get registered.
    The people who are interested are generally the ones who would vote for the same party regardless.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    The people who are interested are generally the ones who would vote for the same party regardless.
    No, they are not. They are single issue votes who are moved by their particular single issue.
    Congratulations America

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    The point is that politicians' views on social policies has a minimal effect in the general election. Hard-core Republicans aren't going to vote Democrat just because their candidate isn't sufficiently socially conservative, and the same is true in reverse. Social issues might have an effect in the primaries, where the fringe is over-represented, but that's about it. Furthermore, during bad economic times, the economy trumps everything else.
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    These groups get listened to precisely because most of the public is indifferent. Politicians aren't going to listen to a fringe group if the general population has strongly-held views about something.
    You'll need to define "fringe", since you gave me shit for using that term. The GOP field is campaigning for the primaries now, and it's a competition on who can be the most socially conservative. Demanding signed pledges for anti-abortion, anti-gay marriage platforms.

    These are crappy economic times, but it seems they want to eliminate anyone not socially conservative enough first. It's too bad all our states don't have open primaries where Independents and Unaffiliated or Undeclared could vote, too. Then perhaps there might be some Republican candidates who are pro-choice and pro-marriage equality.

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    Interesting how I am 'one of the minority who cares' where I merely show an interest in the way how I am governed.
    Come on, you're a single issue obssessive.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Come on, you're a single issue obssessive.
    Just because I expose your utter lack of understanding on a single issue doesn't make that single issue MY only issue.
    Congratulations America

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    No, they are not. They are single issue votes who are moved by their particular single issue.
    Those voters still know which party is more likely to take a positive stance on that issue.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    It probably has the same effect for the opponent as well...
    It can, but. . . when gay marriage goes on the ballot what has been seen is that typically one side or the other, not both, sees a statistically unusual surge.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Those voters still know which party is more likely to take a positive stance on that issue.
    So that's why politicians think it matters; it gets them extra votes to the tune of 1-3%.
    Congratulations America

  27. #27
    A day and a half after he voted to legalize same-sex marriage, State Senator Mark J. Grisanti went to church.

    There, across the pews at St. Rose of Lima in North Buffalo, sat 81-year-old Ann Deckop, and she felt betrayed, since Mr. Grisanti had vowed in 2008 that he was “inalterably” opposed to same-sex marriage.

    “I voted for him and I’m writing a letter indicating that I will not be voting for him in the next election,” Ms. Deckop said.

    But there was also Greg Fox, a 52-year-old technology industry salesman, who called Mr. Grisanti “a gentleman.”

    “It’s important that we uphold Catholic values,” Mr. Fox said, before adding, “This is also 2011, so things change.”

    And at the front of the church was the priest, who, Mr. Grisanti recalled, “put a hand over his heart and kind of pounded his chest, and pointed to me and smiled.” Mr. Grisanti said he was unsure what that meant.

    Now, Mr. Grisanti and the three other Senate Republicans who provided votes necessary to legalize same-sex marriage in New York are confronting the uncertainty of how voters in their districts will react. Voter response will influence the balance of power in the New York Senate, where there are just two more Republicans than Democrats. And the events in New York also have national repercussions: because several Democratic-dominated states have already legalized same-sex marriage, gay-rights advocates increasingly need Republican support if they are to change local laws elsewhere in the country.

    Some Republican donors, as well as Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg and leaders of the gay-rights movement, have promised to support the re-election campaigns of the four New York lawmakers. But the National Organization for Marriage, a group opposed to same-sex marriage, said it would spend $2 million in an effort to defeat the legislators, and key elements of the senators’ traditional political base have vowed to withdraw support.

    “One thing I know for sure, these four people will not have the Conservative Party endorsement,” said Michael R. Long, chairman of the state Conservative Party. “That is certain.”

    The political price for supporting same-sex marriage can be hard to predict. Four years ago, Assemblywoman Teresa R. Sayward, a Republican and a Catholic from a conservative district in the Adirondacks, voted in favor of same-sex marriage after making an impassioned speech about her son’s struggle with his gay identity.

    “The night I took the vote the first time, I was told by my Republican colleagues that I would never get elected again,” she said. Since then, Ms. Sayward has been re-elected twice.

    Continued @ http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/04/ny...gewanted=1&hpw

    For some Americans, their "single issue" is social conservatism. That means DOMA, banning marriage equality, proxy-ban on abortion services, keeping gays out of the military, etc.

  28. #28
    Haven't seen this posted yet. What a bunch of yahoos.


    http://www.washingtonpost.com/politi...washingtonpost


    Conservative ‘marriage pledge’ group apologizes for slavery reference

    By Sandhya Somashekhar, Published: July 9


    A socially conservative group has apologized for including a passage about slavery in a pledge it asked the Republican candidates to sign as a prerequisite for the group’s endorsement in the presidential race.

    Rep. Michele Bachmann had been the first GOP hopeful to sign “The Marriage Vow,” which included in the introduction a section that lamented that “the Institution of Marriage in America is in great crisis.”

    One piece of evidence it offered was the claim that a black person born into slavery “was more likely to be raised by his mother and father in a two-parent household than was an African-American baby born after the election of the USA’s first African-American president.”

    The suggestion that African American babies may have somehow been better off under slavery touched off sharp criticism from liberals and commentators, who noted that U.S. slaves had been forbidden from marrying and were often sold at auction and separated from their family members.

    On Saturday, in a note forwarded to reporters by the Bachmann campaign, the group, the Family Leader, apologized for the reference.

    “After careful deliberation and wise insight and input from valued colleagues we deeply respect, we agree that the statement referencing children born into slavery can be misconstrued,” said Julie Summa, a spokeswoman for the Family Leader. “We sincerely apologize for any negative feelings this has caused, and have removed the language from the vow.”

    The primary goal of the document was to affirm “that ALL of us must work to strengthen and support families and marriages between one woman and one man,” the statement said.

    Republican presidential candidate Rick Santorum also signed the pledge, which garnered headlines not only for the slavery passage but also because of its suggestion that homosexuality was not innate and may be a public health hazard. It also condemned pornography and demanded that signatories reject Sharia law.

    Earlier Saturday, Bachmann spokeswoman Alice Stewart said that the Minnesota congresswoman had only endorsed the 14-point “candidate vow,” which did not include the slavery passage.

    However, the entire document was only four pages, including two pages of footnotes, and the slavery section was the first bullet point within the preamble.

    The Family Leader is led by Bob Vander Plaats, an unsuccessful GOP candidate for governor in Iowa and a prominent Christian conservative leader in the state.

  29. #29
    Facepalm at social conservatism as an election strategy. Go Huntsman 2012.

  30. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    Facepalm at social conservatism as an election strategy.
    The GOP leadership is making a serious mistake by courting these xenophobic yahoos. I'm convinced now that when Bachmann et al say, "Let's take our country back!".....they mean taking it back to a previous century.

    And when they say they want Small Government they actually mean a small number of religious (Christian) extremists in power, telling everyone what's morally correct, what people can do with their own bodies, whom they can love or marry, what defines a family and who can raise children, or who can serve in the military....

    These social conservatives are a scary group of fanatics who try to wrap themselves in the flag and cite the Constitution or Founding Fathers, while almost always getting history and facts wrong....because they're too wrapped up in the Bible. They're all about signing these silly "pledges" (or Contracts for America) for DOMA, pro-heterosexual/anti-homosexual, DADT, anti-abortion, anti-sex education, anti-porn, anti-immigration, anti-Islam.

    "Pledging" to not raise revenue with any tax or vote for raising our debt ceiling, just for good measure, to court the fiscal conservatives. It's unbelievable how the GOP has allowed itself to be hijacked by these hypocritical control freaks, while claiming to be the party of Freeeedom lovers.

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