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Thread: Geithner vs. DeMint

  1. #31
    Interesting take on the situation: http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes...compromise/?hp
    Hope is the denial of reality

  2. #32
    That is interesting - implying that 'playing to your base' works better for the GOP than the Dems. But I wonder how much effect changing self-definitions of conservatism vs. moderates vs. liberals have on this (he brushes on the topic, but doesn't give much data). It might be less an enthusiasm gap and more a growing acceptance of GOP voters for identifying as conservative.

  3. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by wiggin View Post
    That is interesting - implying that 'playing to your base' works better for the GOP than the Dems. But I wonder how much effect changing self-definitions of conservatism vs. moderates vs. liberals have on this (he brushes on the topic, but doesn't give much data). It might be less an enthusiasm gap and more a growing acceptance of GOP voters for identifying as conservative.
    Except note how identification with moderates tends to decrease when that party is sitting in the White House or seeing noticable success in Congress, and how until the Bush administration, self-identified "moderates" were made up a higher proportion of the GOP than they did of the Dems *though as pointed out in the article, that discrepancy is partly because there are significantly fewer liberal Republicans than conservative Democrats* The party out of power always sees the base getting more dominant. Though that's actually portraying the inverse *is it inverse? I get the various 'verses mixed up sometimes* of what's happening, which is that when a party attracts the moderates it usually sees electoral success.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  4. #34
    I don't really buy the argument about being out of power meaning you play to your base more. The proportion of GOP voters who identified as conservative rose steadily from 2000 according to that graph, and dropped steadily during the Clinton years.

  5. #35
    Couldn't that be a function of moderates becoming disillusioned by the party in power and beginning to support the opposition?
    Hope is the denial of reality

  6. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by wiggin View Post
    I don't really buy the argument about being out of power meaning you play to your base more. The proportion of GOP voters who identified as conservative rose steadily from 2000 according to that graph, and dropped steadily during the Clinton years.
    Did I make that argument? I said identification with moderates tends to decrease when you've attained the White House, or seen major electoral success. YOU said it implied the GOP plays to their base more effectively, not I. My claim is that moderates become disillusioned with whatever party has obtained power *because unsurprisingly it acts like it has obtained power* and that once a party sees success, you see people more strongly identifying with it.

    I do think that being out of power leads a party to play to its base more, at least initially, but that's neither here nor there as far as these numbers are concerned.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  7. #37
    I guess I misunderstood you when you said "the party out of power always sees the base getting more dominant".

    Hmm. I don't actually think the GOP is better or worse than the Dems at playing to their base constituency - to be honest, I don't really know. It just seems from the link Loki posted that it might result in better electoral success right now than it would for the Dems, especially in primaries.

    Looking at the numbers, I'm not sure it's really a story of presidencies per se but a much more complex dynamic. The 'conservative' turnout in '94 was a huge jump, but I doubt this had much to do with Clinton's win in 92 so much as it had to do with his overreach in his first two years and the subsequent Contract with America. After their remarkable turnout in '94, they steadily decreased to a minimum in 2000 (despite years of vitriol directed at Clinton), only to steadily increase since then through both a Republican and Democratic president (and two changes of power in Congress). I'm just not sure that there's a clear trend that can be tied either to the party of the administration or who's controlling Congress. It's probably a much more complex reality. The Democratic numbers for 'liberals' are even more unclear, showing a vague trend upwards since the 80s excepting a dip in 2002 (possibly because of 9/11 and Afghanistan?), but nothing major.

    I strongly suspect that this 'self-identification' as conservative or liberal or moderate (and their respective turnout/enthusiasm) has a lot more variables than just who is in power.

  8. #38
    I could have had class. I could have been a contender.
    I could have been somebody. Instead of a bum
    Which is what I am

    I aim at the stars
    But sometimes I hit London

  9. #39
    Don't see anything particularly wrong there. Though even if "true independents" make up 7% of the voters, the candidate that gets two thirds of that vote will have a huge advantage in a close election.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  10. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by wiggin View Post
    Looking at the numbers, I'm not sure it's really a story of presidencies per se but a much more complex dynamic. The 'conservative' turnout in '94 was a huge jump, but I doubt this had much to do with Clinton's win in 92 so much as it had to do with his overreach in his first two years and the subsequent Contract with America.
    You're right, it's not simple. Which is why I said "or seeing notable success in Congress."

    Again, I suggest you're looking at it the wrong way. It's not the base, the self-identified conservatives, who are moving that much. Some yes, but it is my feeling that the numbers reflect movement among the moderates more than the base.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  11. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Flixy View Post
    I do find it amusing that when both sides are saying stupid things, you only assume the Republicans can be more serious
    I never assume that unless I have reason to. In this case, the Republicans have demonstrated more seriousness by voting for a very strong long-term budget reduction bill.

    Agree or disagree with it, and they still could screw this all up. But they seem to be mostly serious about making big cuts.

  12. #42
    This is getting ridiculous. Citing a single paper based on a flawed dataset to make conditions that you're not even willing to agree to when Obama offers it?
    http://www.economist.com/blogs/freee...s-debt-ceiling
    Quote Originally Posted by Free Exchange
    Finding the Republicans’ golden ratio

    Jul 9th 2011, 19:59 by A.M. | LONDON

    MY COLLEAGUE R.A. blogged earlier this week on David Brook’s broadside against Republican intransigence on budget negotiations. Our Leader this week picks up on the theme:

    Earlier this year House Republicans produced a report noting that an 85%-15% split between spending cuts and tax rises was the average for successful fiscal consolidations, according to historical evidence. The White House is offering an 83%-17% split (hardly a huge distance) and a promise that none of the revenue increase will come from higher marginal rates, only from eliminating loopholes. If the Republicans were real tax reformers, they would seize this offer.

    The 85%-15% split, which Republicans argue is optimal for deficit reduction, struck me as severe. In Britain an austerity programme split 3:1 in favour of spending has been met with street protests. The IMF programmes in Ireland and Greece do not come close to an 85%-15% split.

    The Republican’s golden ratio seemed even more striking, after looking at this must-see chart:

    Ezra Klein points out that no recent American deficit-reduction budget has even approached an 85%-15% split—least of all, it turns out, a Republican one. Ronald Reagan’s deficit cutting budgets of 1982, 1984 and 1987 were the closest. But there was one major difference: President Reagan favoured tax increases. Spending cuts accounted for less than 25% of his deficit reduction measures. Tax rises over 75%.

    The President whose austerity budgets were tilted most in favour of spending cuts was a Democrat—Bill Clinton (although tax rises still accounted for almost a third of his deficit reduction measures). President Clinton’s 2:1 ratio in favour of spending cuts turned out to be enough to balance the federal budget for the first time since the 1970s. So where does the Republican 85%-15% figure come from?

    The House Republican report relied on a single study to generate its headline figure:

    Economists Andrew Biggs, Kevin Hassett, and Matt Jensen demonstrated that the degree of success in reducing budget deficits and stabilizing the debt-to-GDP ratio correlates to the share of spending cuts in fiscal consolidation programs. Biggs, Hassett, and Jensen found that successful fiscal consolidations averaged 85% spending cuts and 15% revenue increases, while unsuccessful fiscal consolidations averaged 47% spending cuts and 53% revenue increases.

    Having just read the Biggs, Hasset and Jensen paper, I note two features. First, the vast majority of the successful consolidations studied took place in Europe, in particular Scandinavia, Italy and Portugal. Scandinavian and southern European governments tend to tax more and spend more than America's (as a percentage of GDP). They may therefore have more public-spending fat to cut than America, and less scope to raise taxes.

    Second, the study relies on a dataset which the IMF rejected for, “[failing] to identify consolidations when governments took substantial actions to reduce the deficit, but the actions were associated with severe economic downturns”. When Biggs, Hasset and Jensen apply their methodology to fiscal consolidations which the IMF define as successful, “the lowest expenditure share for a successful fiscal consolidation was just over 66% and the highest just under 83%”.

    Put simply, no fiscal consolidation that the IMF has judged to be successful relied on public spending cuts for more than 83% of its impact. In successful fiscal consolidations, tax rises accounted for between 17% and 33% of deficit-reduction measures.

    I am not an academic economist, however, so let us set aside those objections, and presume the Biggs, Hasset and Jensen paper is methodologically sound. Even so the House Republican report is based on a single academic study. The report cites several other academic papers, all of which strongly favour spending cuts over tax rises. None of these papers, however, advocate an 85%-15% ratio. Some find an optimal ratio significantly less tilted to spending cuts.

    But then maybe I am making too much of the 85%-15% ration. After all the Republicans are clearly not wed to their golden ratio. As Mr Klein also pointed out a few weeks back, the latest House Republicans proposals would have public spending cuts account for more than 85% of deficit reduction measures.

  13. #43
    They were for the "ratio" before they were against it? Anything with a whiff of Obama will be rejected by Republican leadership. Their entire existence has been reduced to.....making sure Obama is a one term president.

    I'm not an academic economist, or an academic political scientist, but I think they're doin' it wrong.






    [Unrelated side note: Ezra Klein is the smartest, cutest, sexiest 'talking head' ever. ]

  14. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by wiggin View Post
    This is getting ridiculous. Citing a single paper based on a flawed dataset to make conditions that you're not even willing to agree to when Obama offers it?
    Not that I'm a fan of Krauthammer, but he makes some valid points about how Obama's plan is dishonest and was intended to be rejected all along: http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinio...k2H_story.html (ignore some of the rhetoric there)

    Let's be honest here: Obama doesn't give a damn about the deficit. He doesn't think it's a problem. He's done absolutely nothing to fix it, and has done plenty of things to make it far, far worse. The only reason he's made the "generous" proposal now is because he knows it would be political suicide for Republicans to accept it. Not to say that I agree with the Republican negotiating position, but they're the only ones who actually want to reduce the deficit.
    Hope is the denial of reality

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