McConnell, Boehner, Ryan, Hatch, Cantor. Plus those who've declared running for POTUS---Bachmann, Romney, Gingrich, Pawlenty, Cain, Santorum. (Ron Paul has never been considered an "insider" in GOP politics.) Other "leadership" comes from Cheney, Armey, Kochs. *Palin and Perry.*
Even Beck/Limbaugh/Hannity/O'Reilly/Robertson/Scarborough/Kudlow/Steele....include Republican-leaning writers for WSJ, Barrons, Forbes, NYT, Economist, Financial Times.
The yahoo fanatics are being "courted" by anyone giving them coverage and credence, encouraging signing their stupid Pledges, access to RNC funds, and no one throwing them out for anything racist, homophobic, bigoted, or xenophobic. They don't even have the guts to tell David Duke to leave the party, and run on his own White Supremist platform. They tolerate the Birthers in their ranks, science and history revisionists, creationists who say the earth is 5,000 years old, and intelligent design--but not evolution--should be taught in public schools.![]()
If it sounds ugly it's because the GOP has become ugly.What an ugly partisan statement; almost eliminationist rhetoric.![]()
Last edited by GGT; 07-12-2011 at 12:56 PM. Reason: *
More on Bachmann, specifically Bachmann and Associates, a "Christian-based mental health facility" operated by her husband. They offer Reparative Therapy for homosexuals, telling them their urges and desires are unnatural and against God's will. They claim to use something like cognitive therapy, but I hesitate to lump that in with anything reputable psychologists/psychiatrists/behavioral therapists would call therapy.
Part of their treatment plan is prayer and reading scripture. Nothing wrong with that. But they don't use it for finding or extending peace or grace, but as an appeal to God to "change them". To help them return to heterosexuality (as God intended) and reject homosexuality (temptation from the Devil). Like it's a malady to be cured.
I used to think we shouldn't have a religious litmus test for elected officials, until now. But it's a reverse litmus test....anyone who believes those things shouldn't be given legislative power (too late for that), let alone highest office in the land.
No party really has much "leadership" except for its highest elected officials. Who was the "leader" of the Democrats from 2002 - 2006?
You're just trying to set up a Saul Alinsky-esque personalization of an issue to discredit a wide ideological range of people.
You think these yahoos have a wide ideological range?No, they're closed-minded, intolerant, religious fanatics. If Republicans (including their "leadership"....) aren't complaining about this, it's an unspoken acceptance of their views. Either it's a small number of extremists that could easily be condemned or distanced (or ignored), or it's a large enough number of the base to set the agenda and political platform.
Rick Perry's call to prayer for a nation in crisis:
http://theresponseusa.com/
On August 6, the nation will come together at Reliant Stadium in Houston, Texas for a solemn gathering of prayer and fasting for our country.
We believe that America is in a state of crisis. Not just politically, financially or morally, but because we are a nation that has not honored God in our successes or humbly called on Him in our struggles.
According to the Bible, the answer to a nation in such crisis is to gather in humility and repentance and ask God to intervene. The Response will be a historic gathering of people from across the nation to pray and fast for America.
Fellow Americans,
Right now, America is in crisis: we have been besieged by financial debt, terrorism, and a multitude of natural disasters. As a nation, we must come together and call upon Jesus to guide us through unprecedented struggles, and thank Him for the blessings of freedom we so richly enjoy.
Some problems are beyond our power to solve, and according to the Book of Joel, Chapter 2, this historic hour demands a historic response. Therefore, on August 6, thousands will gather to pray for a historic breakthrough for our country and a renewed sense of moral purpose.
I sincerely hope you’ll join me in Houston on August 6th and take your place in Reliant Stadium with praying people asking God’s forgiveness, wisdom and provision for our state and nation. There is hope for America. It lies in heaven, and we will find it on our knees.
Sincerely,
Governor
[Rick Perry]
http://www.rightwingwatch.org/Looking to 2012, Robison More Focused On "What" Than "Who"
It has been reported that James Robison has been gathering Religious Right leaders and mobilizing them to defeat President Obama in 2012. While some reports that have suggested that Robison is seeking to rally them behind Texas Gov. Rick Perry, Robison himself is making it clear that he is less interested in "who" the candidate is than he is in laying out "what" needs to be done to save America:
I am declaring to everyone with ears to hear: Now is the time to return to God. Stand up like a mighty army! Pierce the darkness, storm the gates of hell, set captives free, correct our course, reclaim the land, make God the “who” in our personal and national life, and point people to the “what.” We will never find the right “who” until we know the right “what.” When the population understands the “what to do,” we can find the “who” to help lead and insist that every “who” does the right “what.”
To that end, Robison is laying out just "what" needs to be done so that Christians can decide on "who" will be the best candidate to support:
*As the Pledge of Allegiance states, we are a nation under God; and as our currency proclaims, our trust is in God—not “gov.” If national leaders do not acknowledge what America’s founders understood concerning the importance of divine providence, there will be no recovery.
*All life must be protected and seen as precious with unlimited potential however unexpected or planned for. Remember, we can clearly learn from Nazi Germany that something can be legal but also very evil (i.e., the horrific extermination of the Jews and others considered less than perfect or unimportant).
*America must stand in the best interests of Israel against the evil forces calling for its destruction.
*Marriage is between a man and a woman and must be viewed as sacred. The strength of our nation depends on strong families, and national policy must protect marriage.
*There are moral absolutes. No person’s failure reduces or redefines the standards carved in stone by the finger of God and revealed in His Word. We must find a way to stop judges and courts from misinterpreting the Constitution and writing their own laws.
*Success and prosperity may be mishandled by some, but the potential for success that produces opportunity for all and prosperity at different levels is not the problem. Those we elect must keep the free market free, healthy and under the influence of people who understand the importance of personal responsibility.
*There are forces of good and evil, and they must be wisely and rightly defined, discerned and resisted. A strong national defense is critical.
*Radical Islam and terrorism are serious threats. Extreme environmental activism is, also.
*Depending on the federal government as our source is idolatry. We must control it, or it will control us. Stop the madness! Hitler believed that Germany needed a government over the people, not of the people. God deliver us from this kind of insanity.
*Out-of-control spending, mismanagement of the people’s money and excessive, intrusive regulation is as wrong and immoral as stealing. Spending must be brought under control now, at whatever sacrifice. This does not include foolishly giving the government more of the people’s money to waste or mismanage.
*“We the people” must be understood to mean that we all have a “dog in the show.” We are all responsible. We can’t just lay the load and responsibility on others, no matter how many twisted thinkers try to play the blame game. The opportunities and possibilities to succeed is not the problem. Don’t blame opportunity, begin inspiring and teaching responsibility. We must find a way for every citizen to help in some way shoulder the load. This can be accomplished without being unfair and riding on anyone’s back.
*Deal with excessive, foolish taxation and revamp the tax code along with the IRS so we can rejoice together because it will stimulate economic growth. This would create jobs and ultimately enable us to better assist the suffering, the weak, helpless and poor—not with just a handout, but with compassionate hands extended. The church can and must set the example.
*Let the people go. Turn them loose and behold the miracle made possible when people are truly free to be productive while assuming personal responsibility. Nehemiah rebuilt the wall in 52 days. Impossible? Not with God!
*The church must be delivered from the spirit of religion and filled with the Holy Spirit, leading us to the supernatural unity that produces holy harmony. National leaders must rise above partisanship and reason together, seeking effective solutions to serious challenges.
There you have it---moral absolutes, Christian theocracy, right there in the GOP.![]()
I recall you being outraged when people were trying to equate the DNC with some extreme elements of it (still waiting for anyone to denounce Sharpton). But that's ok, because demonizing the other side is fun!
Hope is the denial of reality
If there's an extreme element in the DNC claiming Jesus would be a Liberal Democrat or SSSocialist, that There are moral absolutes. No person’s failure reduces or redefines the standards carved in stone by the finger of God and revealed in His Word. We must find a way to stop judges and courts from misinterpreting the Constitution and writing their own laws, that we should be a pacifist nation with no military, that government should be an extension of Christianity and we 'render unto Caesar what is his', or that their candidate should be Priest in Chief.....yeah, I'd be outraged if the DNC was catering to that group instead of condemning them.![]()
I don't see anything wrong with what they're doing, and it is apparently informed by and bears some kinship to cognitive therapy *the only non-offensive way one might approach conversion, IMO* There are a LOT of "self-loathing faggots" out there, and I'm not about to suggest those who want to deal with it by altering their attitudes and suppressing their desires are making the wrong decision for their own lives. For them, it IS something they want "cured." I can't see how we can accept that people can be so troubled by their biological sex as to need to surgically alter their bodies to switch and not accept that some people might want to change their orientation.
Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"
I'm not aware of "Reparative Therapy" having any credibility in Psychiatry, Psychology, or as an accepted use of cognitive therapy. I've never heard of a program that "changes" gay to straight. Do you know something we don't, or have a source for that?
People who seek help from Christian-based (or any religious-based) mental health professionals are those who already consider faith and religion an important part of their lives, but there's a huge difference between wanting to conform with church dogma---that says homosexuality is a sin, evil, Satanic---and wanting to feel comfortable and accepted just as they are, as God created them.
Especially for those from very religious, fundamental families or communities that disdain and condemn homosexuality, and treat them as a leper with a disease that should be cured, or exorcised from the Demon, it's no surprise that they might be filled with guilt and "self-loathing" and want to change that. Depending on the society they live in and their support systems, it might seem easier to Pray the Gay away than divorce their whole family.
There is such a thing as Gay Acceptance Therapy, and it's accepted by some religions and faiths. Those would be the ones with gay/lesbian ministers and pastors.
PS Fuzzy, sexual orientation and body dysmorphic disorder aren't the same things.
You're inventing words to put in my mouth again.
It's true that the people seeking help from organizations like this one are themselves fairly religious, yes. I'm not sure which differences you're alluding to *there are a multitude of differences in even one religious field, after all* and I don't see what it matters. They don't want to be gay. Many/most/all of them don't believe that God intended for them to be having these feelings *and many of the ones that do regard it as a challenge placed for them to overcome* and they themselves don't accept or feel comfortable just as they are. They want to change, and they have every right to try. They should try, if that's actually what they want. Most won't succeed. The recidivism rate for all kinds of "reparative therapy" is quite high. Some may manage to suppress and replace those feelings though, and others will still manage to find happiness without acting on them. It's not like sexual behavior and feelings are a binary switch, one way or the other exclusively, after all.People who seek help from Christian-based (or any religious-based) mental health professionals are those who already consider faith and religion an important part of their lives, but there's a huge difference between wanting to conform with church dogma---that says homosexuality is a sin, evil, Satanic---and wanting to feel comfortable and accepted just as they are, as God created them.
Yeah, so? You don't presume to make that choice for them, do you? To declare they must live their lives the way YOU would have them do so, a condemnatory gargoyle twin to the one you're complaining about above?Especially for those from very religious, fundamental families or communities that disdain and condemn homosexuality, and treat them as a leper with a disease that should be cured, or exorcised from the Demon, it's no surprise that they might be filled with guilt and "self-loathing" and want to change that. Depending on the society they live in and their support systems, it might seem easier to Pray the Gay away than divorce their whole family.
And again with the invention. I plainly did not declare them the same thing. Merely pointing out something which quite flew over your head. Not all that surprising considering how incredibly close-minded and judgmental you are about other people's sexual orientation.PS Fuzzy, sexual orientation and body dysmorphic disorder aren't the same things.
Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"
Where did I do that? You said you didn't see anything wrong with what they (Bachmann and Associates) are doing, because it *seemed* related to cognitive therapy. I've not seen any "Reparative Therapy to 'turn gay into straight" condoned or recommended by Psychiatry or Psychology. If you have a source then please share it.
It matters when the "therapist" is using their own religious beliefs to constrict the therapy, even when it collides with or contradicts acceptable medical science. If they don't believe God "intended" for them to have their feelings or attractions, it's because of how their church family indoctrinated them.It's true that the people seeking help from organizations like this one are themselves fairly religious, yes. I'm not sure which differences you're alluding to *there are a multitude of differences in even one religious field, after all* and I don't see what it matters. They don't want to be gay. Many/most/all of them don't believe that God intended for them to be having these feelings *and many of the ones that do regard it as a challenge placed for them to overcome* and they themselves don't accept or feel comfortable just as they are. They want to change, and they have every right to try. They should try, if that's actually what they want. Most won't succeed. The recidivism rate for all kinds of "reparative therapy" is quite high. Some may manage to suppress and replace those feelings though, and others will still manage to find happiness without acting on them. It's not like sexual behavior and feelings are a binary switch, one way or the other exclusively, after all.
Of course people have a right to follow any path they want. Churches and religions have right to offer their counseling from a faith-based perspective. But IMO they do NOT have the right to be licensed as Mental Health Professionals if they don't follow scientific guidelines and accepted medical practices.
Condemning gargoyle twin?Yeah, so? You don't presume to make that choice for them, do you? To declare they must live their lives the way YOU would have them do so, a condemnatory gargoyle twin to the one you're complaining about above?I want everyone to receive objective care from real professionals, not "posers" whose goal is based on fundamental interpretations of their own holy text. If this was about a young jew feeling guilt and turmoil about following or rejecting orthodox or reformed traditions....would you send them to an orthodox rabbi for therapy?
It didn't "fly over my head", Fuzzy. But those with BDD don't have the same challenges as gay people struggling with their identity.And again with the invention. I plainly did not declare them the same thing. Merely pointing out something which quite flew over your head. Not all that surprising considering how incredibly close-minded and judgmental you are about other people's sexual orientation.
You can't see the difference, really?I can't see how we can accept that people can be so troubled by their biological sex as to need to surgically alter their bodies to switch and not accept that some people might want to change their orientation.
Another post for Fuzzy. When you say
it makes me think of Christian Scientists. Substitute the word "gay" for "sick". They don't want to be sick. They don't like being sick. But they've been indoctrinated that being "sick" is merely a challenge (from God) that can be overcome with faith, and that prayer is the "cure". In their mind, it's a test from God. If they simply follow God's will, and pray hard enough, they will be "cured" from their "sickness".It's true that the people seeking help from organizations like this one are themselves fairly religious, yes. I'm not sure which differences you're alluding to *there are a multitude of differences in even one religious field, after all* and I don't see what it matters. They don't want to be gay. Many/most/all of them don't believe that God intended for them to be having these feelings *and many of the ones that do regard it as a challenge placed for them to overcome* and they themselves don't accept or feel comfortable just as they are. They want to change, and they have every right to try.
Sounds kinda crazy, huh. That's because it IS crazy.
<When I was very young, we had two Christian Scientist families in our neighborhood. The family across the street wouldn't let their son have vaccinations of any kind. They didn't believe in MD's. At that time we still had Small Pox vaccines, and Polio and Measles were still real threats. He missed a lot of school with fevers and rashes, but never saw a doctor. They "prayed" their way through things, and hailed God for his recoveries. My mom used to fret and worry that he'd had damage done to his heart or immune system that wouldn't show up for decades....
The other family had a young child with high fevers, but believed that ice packs and prayer were the best treatment. When it wasn't "working" as they'd been told by their pastor and church, the mother called my mom because she was a nurse. Long, sad story short, the child had died after aspirating on her own vomit. By the time my mom got there, the girl was cold and blue, but her mother kept saying she'd prayed so hard, their whole church was praying, and she didn't understand.....
![]()
You're having trouble with terms like, well, "like." That something bears some resemblance to cognitive theories or structures does not mean it is cognitive psych, nor does it mean it is recommended by the APA and my using such a term does not imply such claims.
*though one notes that the APA has been perfectly comfortable considering homosexuality a disorder in the past and condoned or recommended a number of approaches for treatment, which did include Cognitive approaches, though those were necessarily less popular than the far more prevalent Behaviorist approach in psych at the time. Even after the APA ceased to list homosexuality in the APA, many members continued to regard and treat it as such, seeing the delisting as owing less to advances in research and knowledge and more to medicine surrendering to political pressure, pro-homosexual activists had been waging an intense campaign on the APA for years
Were they licensed as medical health professionals? I didn't see anything suggesting that. Though I'll point out that "I want to change my behavior/emotional reactions," even when such does not constitute a a disorder or illness, is a legitimate patient goal and psychological practice is permitted to aid in that kind of "self-improvement." I'll reiterate, this isn't medical therapy. It's about helping them change to be the person they want to be.It matters when the "therapist" is using their own religious beliefs to constrict the therapy, even when it collides with or contradicts acceptable medical science. If they don't believe God "intended" for them to have their feelings or attractions, it's because of how their church family indoctrinated them.
Of course people have a right to follow any path they want. Churches and religions have right to offer their counseling from a faith-based perspective. But IMO they do NOT have the right to be licensed as Mental Health Professionals if they don't follow scientific guidelines and accepted medical practices.
If there was a young jew thinking about the Orthodox faith, either rejecting it or accepting it, and was troubled about their feelings and decision, I would absolutely recommend this young person seek the aid of and talk to his or her rabbi to work through the issue. Helping with crises of faith or conscious is practically the raison d'etre of that sort of clergyCondemning gargoyle twin?I want everyone to receive objective care from real professionals, not "posers" whose goal is based on fundamental interpretations of their own holy text. If this was about a young jew feeling guilt and turmoil about following or rejecting orthodox or reformed traditions....would you send them to an orthodox rabbi for therapy?
So here we have a middle-aged or older white woman who is entirely too happy to give full rein to prejudice and bigoty *though PC enough to direct those things only toward politically-acceptable targets* declaring to me that those of us of the Queer perspective don't face the same or similar challenges, deal with the same or similar issues or might in any way draw lessons or support from one another. Thanks so much for that valuable contribution GGT, I'll be sure to accord it an appropriate weight.It didn't "fly over my head", Fuzzy. But those with BDD don't have the same challenges as gay people struggling with their identity.
Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"
I care less about your use of the terms, and more about how patients trust the terms.
Don't forget the DSMMD. Or do you really believe they delete diagnoses just to be politically correct?*though one notes that the APA has been perfectly comfortable considering homosexuality a disorder in the past and condoned or recommended a number of approaches for treatment, which did include Cognitive approaches, though those were necessarily less popular than the far more prevalent Behaviorist approach in psych at the time. Even after the APA ceased to list homosexuality in the APA, many members continued to regard and treat it as such, seeing the delisting as owing less to advances in research and knowledge and more to medicine surrendering to political pressure, pro-homosexual activists had been waging an intense campaign on the APA for years
Bachmann and Associates was listed as a mental health professional agency, and received federal funds for training their staff.Were they licensed as medical health professionals? I didn't see anything suggesting that. Though I'll point out that "I want to change my behavior/emotional reactions," even when such does not constitute a a disorder or illness, is a legitimate patient goal and psychological practice is permitted to aid in that kind of "self-improvement." I'll reiterate, this isn't medical therapy. It's about helping them change to be the person they want to be.
Yeah, and I wanna be a ballerina. S'pose they could help me pray my way to en pointe and Swan Lake?
True. I gave a bad example.If there was a young jew thinking about the Orthodox faith, either rejecting it or accepting it, and was troubled about their feelings and decision, I would absolutely recommend this young person seek the aid of and talk to his or her rabbi to work through the issue. Helping with crises of faith or conscious is practically the raison d'etre of that sort of clergy
What do my age, gender or race have to do with anything? I'm not trying to be PC at all....I just don't believe that being Queer is wrong. That's not to say that I don't know the struggles and challenges of gay people over decades. But my family history is none of your business. Especially with your attitude, thinking only YOU know what it's like.So here we have a middle-aged or older white woman who is entirely too happy to give full rein to prejudice and bigoty *though PC enough to direct those things only toward politically-acceptable targets* declaring to me that those of us of the Queer perspective don't face the same or similar challenges, deal with the same or similar issues or might in any way draw lessons or support from one another. Thanks so much for that valuable contribution GGT, I'll be sure to accord it an appropriate weight.![]()
So what? Entirely not the point. The point is that someone who is queer and does believe homosexuality is a sin should be free to act on those beliefs as they see fit... such as by trying to "cure" their gayness. If those deluded fools really want to get together in a room with other gay men, get down on their knees and... "pray out the gay" instead of the fun thing they could be doing on their knees, who the hell are you to deny them that right?
Just like idiots who believe that birth control is a sin should be free not to use any and idiots who believe that premarital sex is a sin should be free to not have any (until their very disappointing wedding night)... or are you advocating in favor rape here? Since those "no sex before marriage" virgins are wrong, and ought to be forced to believe properly, the obvious solution is to rape them all, right?
"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
-- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.
You missed the same point as Fuzzy. Facilities that are licensed medical providers are required to follow accepted practice guidelines set by their professional associations. That's why you can't go to an outpatient clinic and be offered Santeria 'treatments' or go home with a Voo Doo doll or a box of leeches, whether it's to help you become the person you want to be or not.
As far as I know, neither the AMA nor the APA recognize this religious-based Reparative Therapy as a legitimate form of mental health care. That doesn't mean religious groups can't offer that as part of some spiritual or personal growth workshop to those who want it....they just can't do it through a legitimately licensed medical provider.
Your second paragraph didn't use the analogy quite right.![]()
If their approach is sufficiently Cognitive, then they're good. Many 12-step programs in the US utilize some non-specific religious support in their therapy. It is entirely possible that this group doesn't sufficiently adhere to professional guidelines and shouldn't have been licensed. I have no way of knowing, nor do you. It is also entirely possible *again, we have no way of knowing, and no way to weigh the ignorance in either direction* that they were, in fact properly licensed because absolutely nothing about cognitive psych prohibits a religious flavor and the religiosity does not get in the way of the cognitive therapy. Either way, most people aren't going to get what they're seeking out of this program. But since this is a non-medical counseling practice and "success rate" is not a licensing standard for those, it doesn't really matter.
Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"