US Representative Shot in Arizona + Fantasies/Falsehoods about Dreadnt and Guns

[Enoch the Red]

I rather miss Being. And Khen. Whatever happened to the "everyone is welcomed here" attitude? Some of you guys seem hell bent on weeding out certain posters that you just don't like, as if it's a big fucking popularity contest. What's up with that....and how's it working out?

Doesn't look to me like this forum can afford to shoo anyone away, especially veteran posters. I notice our newest registered "member" is iamfuck.

Of course you miss them. And the civility they brought to the conversation, I'm sure.

[GGT]

Yeah, that's how it seems to work here lately. A few veteran posters simply have to keep calling others SSSocialists, commie pinko lib'ruls, or left-leaning idiots and morons. Just enough to drive the tone, and/or drive certain people away.

Seems counter-productive, unless the goal is to become a minority forum for Americans pushing right-leaning, anti-government, anti-union, anti-progressive, anti-tax, anti-spending, anti-public-everything. aka pro-fundamental conservatism, and/or pro-religious extremism.

Even Sohaib got tired of it and stopped posting, and he was fairly conservative/fundie/religious, just from the "other side" of things for Muslims or Palestinians. How many others have we lost over time---Heero, Ogre, 2HD to name a few, ironically from the right-of-center group. Also Moridin who was leftish. Lolli and Bitter have mostly stopped posting outside General Chat. Nessie stopped posting in this cesspool of overtly conservative bullshit for a while, too. I can understand why.

This place has morphed into a hideous alter-ego of mostly a very few vocal US veteran posters that lean right-of-center, or far right. We all know their names---Dread, Loki, Cain, Lewk.... sometimes Enoch or even Fuzzy. Brits like Rand pipe in from time-to-time, "legitimizing" the "conservative" effort.

<And yeah, as a "moderate centrist" or *gasp* a populist type, I'd hang around to argue if this place became nothing more than a haven for a few commie pinko liberal sssocialist left-of-center veteran posters, too.>

[Loki]

You're a "moderate centrist" only because you consider everyone to the right of you to be right-of-center or far right. The reality is that you're at the very least center-left. And it's amusing for you to talk about this right-wing majority when right-wingers here have regularly gotten ganged up by the left-wingers (including you). Cry me a river.

And FYI, the reason no one (other than you) misses Being has nothing to do with his political views and everything to do with his inability to make coherent arguments.

[Enoch the Red]

Patently ridiculous.

Nessus, Khen, and Steely are just as combative, if not more so then the posters you called out, and they don't hesitate to use personal and political invective in their posts. Ironically, the poster who says SSSocialists and SSSocialism more than any other is yourself GGT, and it's almost always when you go tilting at windmills that just don't exist. Minx, lolli, OG, yourself, Steely, Nessus, ']['ear (when he posted) and to a lesser extent Flixy and earthJoker all provide a range of political and philosophic counter points to each of the posters you've named.

I'm sure it fits into your narrative nicely that the only reason somebody wouldn't want to post because of a massive forum conspiracy and Good Ol' Boy network of people who disagree with you, but that's just not the case.

You, and posters to the left of center, aren't victims any more than those to the right of center are. If somebody chooses not to post any longer, that's entirely up to them. The only barrier to membership and posting is to follow simple posting rules; rules that are expected of everyone.

[GGT]

Nope. I'm moderate centrist because of my liberal social views, combined with a desire to make government and its spending more efficient. At least, that's where academic political scientists place me on the scale of things. Left to my own self-identification, I'd just say I'm an Independent. That means I can choose and weigh topics by importance and scale, not by party affiliation. Neither party "owns" best governance, as they don't "own" the populace or voting electorate.

I used to think "small government" was the answer, but I've changed my position for two main reasons. First, after the financial and banking meltdown exposed deregulation as a participating and leading culprit for the Great Recession. Now I'm more inclined to favor "efficient government", or governance that protects the majority of people from penury, usury, predatory behavior, no matter its size or scope. If it takes the FDIC to ensure and insure bank deposits, so be it. If it takes the SEC or DoJ to protect the common man, instead of propping up the banks or financial wizards with quantum math and crazy new derivative products, then count me in.

Second, because the GOP doesn't really follow the premise that smaller and more efficient government is good. No, they're more about social conservatism and interloping into private lives. It's a ruse they use to get fascist votes, and nothing more. They're riding on the debt and deficit trail, but in reality they've contributed equally to that part of our national vulnerability. Who the hell, in their right mind, cuts taxes during times of WAR, let alone two or three WARS? Republicans and neo-conservatives, that's who.

[Aimless]

Is it time to dig up the political compass results again?

[Loki]

Nope. I'm moderate centrist because of my liberal social views, combined with a desire to make government and its spending more efficient. At least, that's where academic political scientists place me on the scale of things. Left to my own self-identification, I'd just say I'm an Independent. That means I can choose and weigh topics by importance and scale, not by party affiliation. Neither party "owns" best governance, as they don't "own" the populace or voting electorate.

I used to think "small government" was the answer, but I've changed my position for two main reasons. First, after the financial and banking meltdown exposed deregulation as a participating and leading culprit for the Great Recession. Now I'm more inclined to favor "efficient government", or governance that protects the majority of people from penury, usury, predatory behavior, no matter its size or scope. If it takes the FDIC to ensure and insure bank deposits, so be it. If it takes the SEC or DoJ to protect the common man, instead of propping up the banks or financial wizards with quantum math and crazy new derivative products, then count me in.

Second, because the GOP doesn't really follow the premise that smaller and more efficient government is good. No, they're more about social conservatism and interloping into private lives. It's a ruse they use to get fascist votes, and nothing more. They're riding on the debt and deficit trail, but in reality they've contributed equally to that part of our national vulnerability. Who the hell, in their right mind, cuts taxes during times of WAR, let alone two or three WARS? Republicans and neo-conservatives, that's who.

So you're socially left-wing, fiscally left-wing, and want the government to regulate more. And that makes you centrist? Seriously? You're to the left of 2/3 of the Democratic Party.

Is it time to dig up the political compass results again?

http://www.theworldforgotten.com/sho...ull=1#post1691

Not that I think the test is a valid measure of political ideology, but my results are:

Economic Left/Right: 3.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.36

I believe that classifies me as a "moderate centrist", unlike the social democrat above.

[Aimless]

So you're socially left-wing, fiscally left-wing, and want the government to regulate more.

If that's necessary, and she was associating that last bit with being an independent.

[GGT]

Patently ridiculous.

Nessus, Khen, and Steely are just as combative, if not more so then the posters you called out, and they don't hesitate to use personal and political invective in their posts. Ironically, the poster who says SSSocialists and SSSocialism more than any other is yourself GGT, and it's almost always when you go tilting at windmills that just don't exist. Minx, lolli, OG, yourself, Steely, Nessus, ']['ear (when he posted) and to a lesser extent Flixy and earthJoker all provide a range of political and philosophic counter points to each of the posters you've named.

I'm sure it fits into your narrative nicely that the only reason somebody wouldn't want to post because of a massive forum conspiracy and Good Ol' Boy network of people who disagree with you, but that's just not the case.

You, and posters to the left of center, aren't victims any more than those to the right of center are. If somebody chooses not to post any longer, that's entirely up to them. The only barrier to membership and posting is to follow simple posting rules; rules that are expected of everyone.

It's not my personal narrative, and I'm not tilting at windmills. Just ask Nessus or Khen about their recent absence. Ask Bitter or Lolli why they don't post as much in D & D. If Being and Tear (or others in absentia) were still around, you could ask them as well.

I'm not claiming "victimhood", but I do claim false classification by conservatives such as yourself. I also lament the "personal attacks" that don't lead to productive discussions in any way whatsoever.

I use SSSocialist in sarcasm, against the so-called conservatives who truly believe we don't live in a social or communitarian society. Same reason I (used to) frequently use the USA #1 American Exceptionalism response. Because they're both false myths rooted more in outdated ideology than fact.

This forum has taken on a general tone of conservatism that I don't condone or support. Our economy is in the doldrums, our unemployment is way too high, our social mobility has frozen, income disparity is at an all-time high, our middle class is being wiped out, we're becoming a two-tier have or havenot economy, we have more of a 1920's robber baron system than one for the 21st century, and our illustrious leaders in both parties aren't really addressing the problem.

[Loki]

If that's necessary, and she was associating that last bit with being an independent.

Mostly because she doesn't think that the Democratic Party, which is center-left, goes far enough.

[Aimless]

Mostly because she doesn't think that the Democratic Party, which is center-left, goes far enough.

In support of my case I'd like to point out GGT's eccentricity and her disinclination to show loyalty to any particular human being or association of human beings. I dunno 'bout centrist, this left-right scale is a little puzzling to me, but independent? Look and Dread and Fuzzy... democrats.

[Enoch the Red]

It's not my personal narrative, and I'm not tilting at windmills. Just ask Nessus or Khen about their recent absence. Ask Bitter or Lolli why they don't post as much in D & D. If Being and Tear (or others in absentia) were still around, you could ask them as well.

Nessus and Khen can post, or not post, for any reason they want. You seem to be saying that because people hold opinions that are different from yours, you, and others like you, are somehow being persecuted. With the exception of ']['ear, who was by all accounts, a massively manipulative prick when you weren't posting in absolute lockstep with him, how were these posters being harassed, abused, and harangued*?

How?

*as compared to the normalized harassment and abuse the average poster has to deal with on a regular basis.

I'm not claiming "victimhood", but I do claim false classification by conservatives such as yourself. I also lament the "personal attacks" that don't lead to productive discussions in any way whatsoever.

It's not false classification, it's simple intellectual dishonesty on your part. If you were honest and forthright in your opinions, (namely that you habitually hate the GOP and the Tea Party, their membership, and what they represent) it would be one thing. Nessus, Steely, et al clearly fit this bill, and it's easy to have relatively interesting and productive conversations with both of them. Instead you try to play the part of an independent, when you are, in reality, anything but.

It's possible you aren't aware of this fact. I don't know if you are capable of seeing yourself as an obviously left-of-center partisan because that would go against your fairy-tale persona of being an open-minded independent, but you clearly are.

Oh sure, you'll throw in the occasional jab at Democrats, (usually for not going far enough in their war on the GOP/Tea Party), or throw some some token displeasure, (usually after being prodded by a member here) at the Democrats in power, but it's a fairly transparent feint used to give credence to your claims of intellectual independence and free thought.

This forum has taken on a general tone of conservatism that I don't condone or support.

This forum is a grab bag of people with diverse intellectual, political, and moral backgrounds and agendas. It is not run by a homogenous group, nor does it cater to any single party/ideology. It's part of the reason I enjoy coming here.

[GGT]

Mostly because she doesn't think that the Democratic Party, which is center-left, goes far enough.

Wrongo, bucko. Regulation isn't right wing, left wing, Republican or Democrat. In essence, regulations are supposed to protect the general populace from things like fraud, monopoly, undue risk, or catastrophe. I have never said that Democrats do a better job of that than Republicans. What I have said is that neither party politic has done a good job at Regulating, but both parties have managed to turn Regulation into a political issue.

Regulations and oversight aren't something proprietary for Democrats or Republicans, corporations or shareholders. They're supposed to benefit all Americans.

[Loki]

You can believe and claim whatever you want; you won't find anyone who agrees with you that significantly more regulation isn't a left-wing proposal.

Is your -4.88 economic score on the political compass part of some conspiracy to paint conservatives as moderates, too?

[Steely Glint]

Economic Left/Right: -3.88
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.74, arbitrary number fans.

[Aimless]

Ah you were only talking about economic regulation, that makes more sense.

[Loki]

Economic Left/Right: -3.88
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.74, arbitrary number fans.

Given that your economic score is to the right of GGT, how do you feel about being a conservative?

[Flixy]

Economic Left/Right: -3.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.26

I am more centrist than GGT!

[Loki]

No, you're a conservative, too.

[GGT]

Nessus and Khen can post, or not post, for any reason they want. You seem to be saying that because people hold opinions that are different from yours, you, and others like you, are somehow being persecuted.

How?

It's not false classification, it's simple intellectual dishonesty on your part. If you were forthright in your opinions, (namely that you hate the GOP and the Tea Party, their membership, and what they represent) it would be one thing. Nessus, Steely, et al clearly fit this bill, and it's easy to have relatively interesting and productive conversations with both of them. Instead you try to play the part of an independent, when you are, in reality, anything but.

Nope, that would be you assigning me to a strict group. I actually like some in the GOP, and don't "hate" the Tea Party. How could I, since they're not a monolithic group? I admire parts of Ron Paul's ideology. I like much of what Huntsman has shown so far, too.

What I do NOT like are religious moralizers. Especially those that use the Constitution for those religious ideals. Ironic, huh, since I consider myself a Christian but don't buy into this Christian morality that's being pumped by certain politicians. I don't want to live in a theocracy, even if the "majority" of citizens self-identify as Christians, or claim our representative democracy was founded on Judeo-Christian "morals".

It's possible you aren't aware of this fact. I don't know if you are capable of seeing yourself as an obviously left-of-center partisan because that would go against your fairy tale of an open-minded independent, but you clearly are.

Anything is possible. I try to be aware of my idiosyncrasy and hypocrisy when it rears its head. No one is perfect, after all. No need to suggest I live in a fairy tale land of unicorns or whatever, either. That's nothing but using Cain's attempts at personal attacks, leading nowhere productive.

Oh sure, you'll throw in the occasional jab at Democrats, (usually for not going far enough in their war on the GOP/Tea Party), or throw some some token displeasure, (usually after being prodded by a member here) at the Democrats in power, but it's a fairly transparent feint used to give credence to your claims of intellectual independence and free thought.

If Democrats keep filling the news with ridiculous stunts like Hoffa addressing labor unions, I'll be more than happy to criticize Democrats. Truth is, so far only the Republicans have my garnered criticism, because they're being so damn ridiculous. Keep the feds out, no wait, we need FEMA. Cut SS and Medicare, no wait, we need the elderly vote. Cut public spending, no wait, we need police and firefighters. Get rid of Regulation, no wait, we need some standards.

This forum is a grab bag of people with diverse intellectual, political, and moral backgrounds and agendas. It is not run by a homogenous group, nor does it cater to any single party/ideology. It's part of the reason I enjoy coming here.

Sure. I just don't want it to become some conservative or liberal fuckfest, favoring one group over the other, that's all.

[Flixy]

No, you're a conservative, too.

Don't say it too loud, I might get lynched by the socialists in this country

[Loki]

Sure. I just don't want it to become some conservative or liberal fuckfest, favoring one group over the other, that's all.

Do you actually believe this? You were part of the bangwagon that piled on anyone remotely right-wing for months. Be honest with yourself; you don't like posting somewhere where people disagree with what you say. You also like posters who agree with you, even if they are incapable of forming a coherent post or responding to someone without flaming them.

Don't say it too loud, I might get lynched by the socialists in this country

I knew a Swede who was conservative. He's not in Sweden now.

[Steely Glint]

You also like posters who agree with you, even if they are incapable of forming a coherent post or responding to someone without flaming them.

So, she wants posters who agree with her, but then flame her? Like "you're absolutely right, you fucking cunt"?

[GGT]

You can believe and claim whatever you want; you won't find anyone who agrees with you that significantly more regulation isn't a left-wing proposal.

Is your -4.88 economic score on the political compass part of some conspiracy to paint conservatives as moderates, too?

But you didn't really want to participate in threads where I asked point-blank if Clinton rolling back certain regulations helped or hurt, if repealing Glass-Steagall helped or hurt, if NAFTA policy helped or hurt, if Greenspan's monetary policy helped or hurt, if Bush taking on two Wars with tax cuts helped or hurt. I mean helping or hurting our US economy and jobs numbers, btw.

[Loki]

So, she wants posters who agree with her, but then flame her? Like "you're absolutely right, you fucking cunt"?

She did like Tear...

But you didn't really want to participate in threads where I asked point-blank if Clinton rolling back certain regulations helped or hurt, if repealing Glass-Steagall helped or hurt, if NAFTA policy helped or hurt, if Greenspan's monetary policy helped or hurt, if Bush taking on two Wars with tax cuts helped or hurt. I mean helping or hurting our US economy and jobs numbers, btw.

How is this relevant to you being a left-winger? You're making it sound that only wanting "bad" regulations makes one left wing...

[Enoch the Red]

Nope, that would be you assigning me to a strict group. I actually like some in the GOP, and don't "hate" the Tea Party. How could I, since they're not a monolithic group? I admire parts of Ron Paul's ideology. I like much of what Huntsman has shown so far, too.

If Democrats keep filling the news with ridiculous stunts like Hoffa addressing labor unions, I'll be more than happy to criticize Democrats. Truth is, so far only the Republicans have my garnered criticism, because they're being so damn ridiculous. Keep the feds out, no wait, we need FEMA. Cut SS and Medicare, no wait, we need the elderly vote. Cut public spending, no wait, we need police and firefighters. Get rid of Regulation, no wait, we need some standards.

Sure. I just don't want it to become some conservative or liberal fuckfest, favoring one group over the other, that's all.

Not buying it. You would be, (and were, I should point out) quite content when regular liberal posters outnumbered regular other posters in this forum. It should also be noted that no one in this forum fits your bill of religious moralizers. Even Lewk has said he doesn't want to live in a theocratic country, nor does he claim to try to impose his own Christiana morality on others through legislation.

If that's really all you hated, I somehow doubt you'd still be seeing pink the way you seem to be regarding the political makeup of these forums.

[GGT]

Not buying it. You would be, (and were, I should point out) quite content when regular liberal posters outnumbered regular other posters in this forum. It should also be noted that no one in this forum fits your bill of religious moralizers. Even Lewk has said he doesn't want to live in a theocratic country, nor does he claim to try to impose his own Christiana morality on others through legislation.

If that's really all you hated, I somehow doubt you'd still be seeing pink the way you seem to be regarding the political makeup of these forums.

Bullshit. Shirley, your memory can't be worse than mine, can it? I used to routinely argue against liberal posters that employment wasn't a Right, that retiring at practically full salary at age 50 wasn't a Right, and that sort of "entitlement ideology" would kill the middle classes and eventually entire economies.

I stand prepared to argue the same things. That doesn't negate my opinions on our pathetic political process, crony capitalism, or propping up Big Banks or the Financial sector to the detriment of John or Jane Q. Public, the taxpayer or the middle classes.

As for religious moralizers, I do think Lewk falls in that category, despite his claims of not wanting a theocracy. His ideas don't sound much better than other religious extremists who think stoning adulterers to death, or cutting off thief's hands, is the best way to practice law and "justice".

[Enoch the Red]

Bullshit. Shirley, your memory can't be worse than mine, can it? I used to routinely argue against liberal posters that employment wasn't a Right, that retiring at practically full salary at age 50 wasn't a Right, and that sort of "entitlement ideology" would kill the middle classes and eventually entire economies.

I stand prepared to argue the same things. That doesn't negate my opinions on our pathetic political process, crony capitalism, or propping up Big Banks or the Financial sector to the detriment of John or Jane Q. Public, the taxpayer or the middle classes.

As for religious moralizers, I do think Lewk falls in that category, despite his claims of not wanting a theocracy. His ideas don't sound much better than other religious extremists who think stoning adulterers to death, or cutting off thief's hands, is the best way to practice law and "justice".

You intimated that I was both racist and sexist in our first exchange on the new forum, for nothing more then being quaint enough to believe in private property rights.

[Dreadnaught]

All should feel welcome. I would [probably] like to have Being back.

You never sent me a photo, and I was and am correct given the assumption that the person posting under the Dreadnaught nick hasn't changed.

You're right, I offered to send it in good faith and you said you wouldn't believe me even if I sent it.

Well, I may as well obscure a few details (such as the male owner of the gun) and post the photo people are remembering from the Zionist Entity. The reason people remember it is because it was used as one of my "mod hats" on the Atard boards.



Still, it's hilarious how people are absolutely dead-set that there was a photo involving a rifle with a large-breasted woman. It's sort of an interesting case of groupthink taking over. Except it's sort of creepy.

[GGT]

That's not the photo I remember, when you posted from your Israeli firefighting philanthropic visit, showing a woman holding an assault rifle she kept in her bedroom, or you taking turns for the camera. Whatever.