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Thread: Posters in the sciences: chat on current journal culture?

  1. #1

    Default Posters in the sciences: chat on current journal culture?

    The Lairds of Learning
    Who are the most ruthless capitalists in the Western world? Whose monopolistic practices makes WalMart look like a corner shop and Rupert Murdoch look like a socialist? You won’t guess the answer in a month of Sundays. While there are plenty of candidates, my vote goes not to the banks, the oil companies or the health insurers, but – wait for it – to academic publishers. Theirs might sound like a fusty and insignificant sector. It is anything but. Of all corporate scams, the racket they run is most urgently in need of referral to the competition authorities.

    Everyone claims to agree that people should be encouraged to understand science and other academic research. Without current knowledge, we cannot make coherent democratic decisions. But the publishers have slapped a padlock and a Keep Out sign on the gates.

    You might resent Murdoch’s paywall policy, in which he charges £1 for 24 hours of access to the Times and Sunday Times. But at least in that period you can read and download as many articles as you like. Reading a single article published by one of Elsevier’s journals will cost you $31.50(1). Springer charges Eur34.95(2), Wiley-Blackwell, $42(3). Read ten and you pay ten times. And the journals retain perpetual copyright. You want to read a letter printed in 1981? That’ll be $31.50(4).

    Of course, you could go into the library (if it still exists). But they too have been hit by cosmic fees. The average cost of an annual subscription to a chemistry journal is $3,792(5). Some journals cost $10,000 a year or more to stock. The most expensive I’ve seen, Elsevier’s Biochimica et Biophysica Acta, is $20,930(6). Though academic libraries have been frantically cutting subscriptions to make ends meet, journals now consume 65% of their budgets(7), which means they have had to reduce the number of books they buy. Journal fees account for a significant component of universities’ costs, which are being passed to their students.

    Murdoch pays his journalists and editors, and his companies generate much of the content they use. But the academic publishers get their articles, their peer reviewing (vetting by other researchers) and even much of their editing for free. The material they publish was commissioned and funded not by them but by us, through government research grants and academic stipends. But to see it, we must pay again, and through the nose.

    The returns are astronomical: in the past financial year, for example, Elsevier’s operating-profit margin was 36% (£724m on revenues of £2 billion)(8). They result from a stranglehold on the market. Elsevier, Springer and Wiley, who have bought up many of their competitors, now publish 42% of journal articles(9).

    More importantly, universities are locked into buying their products. Academic papers are published in only one place, and they have to be read by researchers trying to keep up with their subject. Demand is inelastic and competition non-existent, because different journals can’t publish the same material. In many cases the publishers oblige the libraries to buy a large package of journals, whether or not they want them all. Perhaps it’s not surprising that one of the biggest crooks ever to have preyed upon the people of this country – Robert Maxwell – made much of his money through academic publishing.

    The publishers claim that they have to charge these fees as a result of the costs of production and distribution, and that they add value (in Springer’s words) because they “develop journal brands and maintain and improve the digital infrastructure which has revolutionized scientific communication in the past 15 years.”(10) But an analysis by Deutsche Bank reaches different conclusions. “We believe the publisher adds relatively little value to the publishing process … if the process really were as complex, costly and value-added as the publishers protest that it is, 40% margins wouldn’t be available.”(11) Far from assisting the dissemination of research, the big publishers impede it, as their long turnaround times can delay the release of findings by a year or more(12).

    What we see here is pure rentier capitalism: monopolising a public resource then charging exorbitant fees to use it. Another term for it is economic parasitism. To obtain the knowledge for which we have already paid, we must surrender our feu to the lairds of learning.

    It’s bad enough for academics, it’s worse for the laity. I refer readers to peer-reviewed papers, on the principle that claims should be followed to their sources. The readers tell me that they can’t afford to judge for themselves whether or not I have represented the research fairly. Independent researchers who try to inform themselves about important scientific issues have to fork out thousands(12). This is a tax on education, a stifling of the public mind. It appears to contravene the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which says that “everyone has the right freely to … share in scientific advancement and its benefits.”(13)

    Open-access publishing, despite its promise, and some excellent resources such as the Public Library of Science and the physics database arxiv.org, has failed to displace the monopolists. In 1998 the Economist, surveying the opportunities offered by electronic publishing, predicted that “the days of 40% profit margins may soon be as dead as Robert Maxwell.”(14) But in 2010 Elsevier’s operating profit margins were the same (36%) as they were in 1998(15).

    The reason is that the big publishers have rounded up the journals with the highest academic impact factors, in which publication is essential for researchers trying to secure grants and advance their careers(16). You can start reading open-access journals, but you can’t stop reading the closed ones.

    Government bodies, with a few exceptions, have failed to confront them. The National Institutes of Health in the US oblige anyone taking their grants to put their papers in an open-access archive(17). But Research Councils UK, whose statement on public access is a masterpiece of meaningless waffle, relies on “the assumption that publishers will maintain the spirit of their current policies.”(18) You bet they will.

    In the short-term, governments should refer the academic publishers to their competition watchdogs, and insist that all papers arising from publicly-funded research are placed in a free public database(19). In the longer term, they should work with researchers to cut out the middleman altogether, creating, along the lines proposed by Bjorn Brembs, a single global archive of academic literature and data(20). Peer-review would be overseen by an independent body. It could be funded by the library budgets which are currently being diverted into the hands of privateers.

    The knowledge monopoly is as unwarranted and anachronistic as the Corn Laws. Let’s throw off these parasitic overlords and liberate the research which belongs to us.
    www.monbiot.com
    References:
    1. I sampled costs in these Elsevier journals: Journal of Clinical Epidemiology; Radiation Physics and Chemistry and Crop Protection, all of which charge US$31.50. Papers in a fourth publication I checked, the Journal of Applied Developmental Psychology, cost US$35.95.
    2. I sampled costs in these Springer journals: Journal of Applied Spectroscopy, Kinematics and Physics of Celestial Bodies and Ecotoxicology, all of which charge Eur34.95.
    3. I sampled costs in these Wiley-Blackwell journals: Plant Biology; Respirology and Journal of Applied Social Psychology, all of which charge US$ 42.00.
    4. I went into the archive of Elsevier’s Applied Catalysis, and checked the costs of the material published in its first issue: April 1981.
    5. Bjorn Brembs, 2011. What’s Wrong with Scholarly Publishing Today? II. http://www.slideshare.net/brembs/wha...shing-today-ii
    6. http://www.elsevier.com/wps/find/jou.../bibliographic
    7. The Economist, 26th May 2011. Of goats and headaches. http://www.economist.com/node/18744177
    8. The Economist, as above.
    9. Glenn S. McGuigan and Robert D. Russell, 2008. The Business of Academic Publishing: A Strategic Analysis of the Academic Journal Publishing Industry and its Impact on the Future of Scholarly Publishing. Electronic Journal of Academic and Special Librarianship, volume 9, number 3.
    http://southernlibrarianship.icaap.org/content/v09n03/mcguigan_g01.html
    10. Springer Corporate Communications, 29th August 2011. By email. I spoke to Elsevier and asked them for a comment, but I have not received one.
    11. Deutsche Bank AG, 11th January 2005. Reed Elsevier: Moving the Supertanker. Global Equity Research Report. Quoted by Glenn S. McGuigan and Robert D. Russell, as above.
    12. John P. Conley and Myrna Wooders, March 2009. But what have you done for me lately? Commercial Publishing, Scholarly Communication, and Open-Access. Economic Analysis & Policy, Vol. 39, No. 1. www.eap-journal.com/download.php?file=692
    13. Article 27. http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/index.shtml#a27
    14. The Economist, 22nd January 1998. Publishing, perishing, and peer review. http://www.economist.com/node/603719
    15. Glenn S. McGuigan and Robert D. Russell, as above.
    16. See Glenn S. McGuigan and Robert D. Russell, as above.
    17. http://publicaccess.nih.gov/
    18. http://www.rcuk.ac.uk/documents/docu...6statement.pdf
    19. Danny Kingsley shows how a small change could make a big difference: “Currently all universities collect information about, and a copy of, every research article written by their academics each year. … But the version of the papers collected is the Publisher’s PDF. And in most cases this is the version we cannot make open access through digital repositories. … the infrastructure is there and the processes are already in place. But there is one small change that has to happen before we can enjoy substantive access to Australian research. The Government must specify that they require the Accepted Version (the final peer reviewed, corrected version) of the papers rather than the Publisher’s PDF for reporting.”
    http://theconversation.edu.au/how-one-small-fix-could-open-access-to-research-2637
    20. Bjorn Brembs, as above.
    Now I know I'm known as the resident screaming left-wing socialist, and for good reason. However! I don't necessarily agree with all of this, and frankly I was wondering if the other science folks here had any thoughts on the matter.

    I know that there's a strong under-current among some factions in academia for a fully free, "open-source" peer-review journal system (as per ArXiv etc.), but I honestly don't know if that's a viable alternative. Granted, right now the same honour system that'd apply there mostly applies to these commercial journals; the reviewers are 'random' colleagues and the over-sight to their work is what it is. Impact factors for free-ware journals could probably be made somewhat reliable if the system were adopted. But will it ever be? What's the incentive?

    I work in a fairly large and affluent university and I don't expect to run into a situation where I can't access a citation for the lack of money. But I can see how smaller institutions might start having issues once the monopolies start price-gouging too far. So where will the small institutions turn? Towards teaching rather than research? That's certainly easier than trying to support a grass-roots movement to alter one of the fundamental principles of academic work.

    Thoughts, perceptions, anecdotes?
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  2. #2
    I'm not sure how much of this applies to poli sci journals. I know most of them barely break even, though I suppose the publishers might be making money from this. While it might cost a fortune to access an article by yourself, I don't know anyone who doesn't do this through some institution (which makes it free). There's something to be said for allowing the regular public access to the articles, but I'm not sure how many people would actually take up that offer and whether it should be the job of publishers to provide this information for free. Surely, if there was a public interest in having these information available to the public, the government can offer to pay the publishers for this access? Publishers aren't exactly in the business of giving out things for free.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  3. #3
    A lot of our databases and journals go through only a handful of publishers. They sell access in packages, so that "average" price is next to impossible to actually get. Only a few of our subscriptions are based on per-use, most are all you can eat. We commonly cut 6 figure checks to some of the suppliers for access. EBSCO is one of our largest at the moment, but NewsBank is huge too (just Alt-F the list).
    The most dickish part is even though the subscriptions are largely "all you can eat" each renewal period charges on last year's useage. So we commonly have to drop access to certain databases for years at time, or bury them during certain parts of the year.


    In one of these previous threads, think it was on ebooks, I brought up about one publisher releasing its collection in ebook form for free. Severely undercutting the several hundred price tags their printed materials were going for on Amazon. Think someone justified those prices as acceptable for printing and binding

    EDIT:
    It was the National Academies Press
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  4. #4
    Nessus - I actually agree with most of the critique (yes, me, the capitalist evil Zionist!). It's astonishing the difference in access between different institutions. I work for an institution with the best medical-related library access I have ever found (and pretty comprehensive library access for engineering/sciences in general). I have friends in medical and graduate schools around the world - really the cream of the crop - who routinely ask me for journal articles that they simply can't access. I only rarely come across something that's simply impossible to get, and that's often because the archive hasn't been digitized. But when I'm not on the VPN at other institutions, the lack of access is actually crippling. I'm currently flying back from a collaboration at a well known science institute, and it was ridiculously annoying trying to find out information on an obscure form of chemical vapor deposition because the journal access just wasn't there. I logged onto the Hopkins VPN, and voila!

    What this does is turn research into a 'haves' and 'have nots' kind of enterprise, where institutions without adequate funding (and often even institutions with adequate funding) will cut back on their access and seriously harm the researchers who use their services.

    The author is wrong about a few things, though. Demand is elastic, and that's unfortunate. Also, I think he dismisses the new NIH 'public access' requirements with no cause. That's a huge difference. The NIH funds over $30 billion of research a year, which accounts for a significant fraction of the best journal articles in the world for medical/bio work (and a surprising amount of other research as well). That was a major difference they just recently instituted, and I don't see why other US gov't agencies couldn't jump on the bandwagon - DOD, NSF, DOE, state research funds, etc. That would effectively break the monopoly of the journal companies, as somewhere on the order of half of the published research in the world would likely be freely available (that's a guess, but not a bad one IMO). If the EU follows suit, the publishers are likely to be in real trouble.

    To be honest, I've been skeptical of the whole open source thing a la PLoS - I know a number of people who've published in there, but I don't feel it has the same rigor and standards as a traditional journal (e.g. Science, Nature, Cell). Maybe that will change, but to be honest I don't have a problem with the journal entities being in a business - they themselves don't make all that much money, and I do think they provide a useful 'filter'. It's the big overarching publishers that really rake in the big bucks here, and providing their main product for free as a condition for government funding is a great way to drastically cut their margins.

    Loki: even if the specific PS journals you're talking about don't make much money, their publishers actually probably do through bundling the journal in with others and selling it for a fantastic price. The owners/editors of Poli Sci Quarterly or whatever aren't the same guys as the big academic publishing companies. Also, for the rest of your point, I think there's fairly little value added for most publishers. I do peer-reviewing of scientific articles for free (and spend a lot of effort doing it, too!); I do rigorous editing of my manuscripts for free, I do goddamned graphic design to make my figures fit X journal's insane rules... all for free. In fact, my last journal charged me $300 per figure (irrespective of color of B/W) after I had made them perfect for printing. Other than cutting and pasting I don't know what they actually did with it to be worth $300. The point is that the searchable databases haven't really been put together by the publishers, and everything else is mostly done by the authors/reviewers. The editors do a valuable task, yes, but that's a tiny cost compared to the money going through publishers' coffers.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by wiggin View Post
    Loki: even if the specific PS journals you're talking about don't make much money, their publishers actually probably do through bundling the journal in with others and selling it for a fantastic price. The owners/editors of Poli Sci Quarterly or whatever aren't the same guys as the big academic publishing companies. Also, for the rest of your point, I think there's fairly little value added for most publishers. I do peer-reviewing of scientific articles for free (and spend a lot of effort doing it, too!); I do rigorous editing of my manuscripts for free, I do goddamned graphic design to make my figures fit X journal's insane rules... all for free. In fact, my last journal charged me $300 per figure (irrespective of color of B/W) after I had made them perfect for printing. Other than cutting and pasting I don't know what they actually did with it to be worth $300. The point is that the searchable databases haven't really been put together by the publishers, and everything else is mostly done by the authors/reviewers. The editors do a valuable task, yes, but that's a tiny cost compared to the money going through publishers' coffers.
    People do reviews for free here as well, and it costs money to publish articles with color photos. I assume the money goes to print the paper editions of the journals with color ink. I know the journals don't make money; one of my advisors edits a fairly good journal. I really have no idea if the academic publishers make money though; I've certainly never heard this to be true. *shrug*
    Hope is the denial of reality

  6. #6
    I agree, it seems silly for research done with public funding to be inaccessible to the public who funded it. Sort of defeat's the government's interest in funding everything in the first place.

    However, Loki has a point that many academic journals (not to mention academics) don't really break even. I think this brings-up a larger question of funding (and the monetary value) of academia in general.

    I have no strong views on this, but do people sometimes think we're in an age where we have more "academics" than ever, producing enormous reams of content that has limited value? It may be more of an issue in the humanities (sorry guys), but I don't spend as much time in academia and can only relate what my PHD friends tell me.

  7. #7
    I do wonder how you'd separate the great research from the mediocre research if there was only one publication...No one has the time to read everything that people write about a given topic.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by wiggin View Post
    Nessus - I actually agree with most of the critique (yes, me, the capitalist evil Zionist!). It's astonishing the difference in access between different institutions. I work for an institution with the best medical-related library access I have ever found (and pretty comprehensive library access for engineering/sciences in general). I have friends in medical and graduate schools around the world - really the cream of the crop - who routinely ask me for journal articles that they simply can't access. I only rarely come across something that's simply impossible to get, and that's often because the archive hasn't been digitized. But when I'm not on the VPN at other institutions, the lack of access is actually crippling. I'm currently flying back from a collaboration at a well known science institute, and it was ridiculously annoying trying to find out information on an obscure form of chemical vapor deposition because the journal access just wasn't there. I logged onto the Hopkins VPN, and voila!

    What this does is turn research into a 'haves' and 'have nots' kind of enterprise, where institutions without adequate funding (and often even institutions with adequate funding) will cut back on their access and seriously harm the researchers who use their services.

    The author is wrong about a few things, though. Demand is elastic, and that's unfortunate. Also, I think he dismisses the new NIH 'public access' requirements with no cause. That's a huge difference. The NIH funds over $30 billion of research a year, which accounts for a significant fraction of the best journal articles in the world for medical/bio work (and a surprising amount of other research as well). That was a major difference they just recently instituted, and I don't see why other US gov't agencies couldn't jump on the bandwagon - DOD, NSF, DOE, state research funds, etc. That would effectively break the monopoly of the journal companies, as somewhere on the order of half of the published research in the world would likely be freely available (that's a guess, but not a bad one IMO). If the EU follows suit, the publishers are likely to be in real trouble.
    Hopefully it'll pan out like that. (And this is why you're an acceptable capitalist, you're reasonable ) It would be...Unfortunate if some people created a "scientific publishing bubble" that'd leave some bankers with heavy profits and Nature bankrupt. Obviously not likely, but there's always a need for new bubbles...

    I wonder how comprehensive our access is across the various fields. Like I said, I've never had issues getting something I need (and honestly if I really need something for 40€, it's nowhere near the largest expense an experimentalist is going to charge the institution!), and I have some friends in management who've told me they do dole out the big bucks for access in most fields we're active in. Hmm.

    Quote Originally Posted by wiggin View Post
    To be honest, I've been skeptical of the whole open source thing a la PLoS - I know a number of people who've published in there, but I don't feel it has the same rigor and standards as a traditional journal (e.g. Science, Nature, Cell). Maybe that will change, but to be honest I don't have a problem with the journal entities being in a business - they themselves don't make all that much money, and I do think they provide a useful 'filter'. It's the big overarching publishers that really rake in the big bucks here, and providing their main product for free as a condition for government funding is a great way to drastically cut their margins.
    Well, maybe that's part of the whole deal; if you're reviewing for Phys Rev Let B, omigosh I'm reviewing for Phys Rev Let B! You know the journal has high standards, everyone who reads it knows it, and everyone trying to publish in it (hopefully) knows it. Brand recognition, if you will. Any new freeware competitor would have to establish some brand visibility as well; we have prof So-And-So on our review board, so on and so forth. I dunno. Obviously it isn't the money that makes Nature or Science such coveted platforms, so if they can be persuaded into a more open business model, there we go.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    I agree, it seems silly for research done with public funding to be inaccessible to the public who funded it. Sort of defeat's the government's interest in funding everything in the first place.

    However, Loki has a point that many academic journals (not to mention academics) don't really break even. I think this brings-up a larger question of funding (and the monetary value) of academia in general.

    I have no strong views on this, but do people sometimes think we're in an age where we have more "academics" than ever, producing enormous reams of content that has limited value? It may be more of an issue in the humanities (sorry guys), but I don't spend as much time in academia and can only relate what my PHD friends tell me.
    I'll leave the defense of humanities to Loki for the sake of our posting history (), but suffice it to say society does actually have interests that are difficult to translate into pure dollar figures.

    Anyway, I personally think what you're describing in your broken GOP-economotalk is a part of the final dispersion of scientific knowledge (granted, I'm only looking at this from the POV of the hard sciences), where each sub-field of a field has become so vast that specialization has to mean abandoning all the rest. Science now advances as an uncontrolled wave-front, everyone pushing the boundary at his or her little corner of it but I doubt anyone has seen the 'big picture' for, Hell, almost a century. Obviously the surrounding society controls the tide somewhat, by funding this instead of that, but each scientist worth her salts will fight for their pet project like a lion, so mindless progress happens throughout, it's just easier in the sexy fields.

    Now, given that no one has a clue on what we're actually producing here, how on Earth is anyone meant to gauge the profitability of each innovation and invention for today's market? It just happens, sometimes, when the industries and science meet through some fortunate and understanding agent; the direct interface between scientist and industrialist is sometimes as problematic as between the scientist and the general.

    Lastly, the idea of for-profit science is also otherwise problematic; sure, the great scientific minds of yore designed better cannons and made horoscopes for their kings, but the university system served the churches and the people, not the merchants. If you think science should solely produce atomic bombs and vaccines, then your task is a simple one. But, let's say you want to build smaller iPads instead. Or the Google equivalent, at any rate. You need an army of materials scientists torturing electrons for who knows how long before they strike data gold. We still don't have room temperature superconductors (if you're not familiar with the concept, let's just say RTSC = $$$$$$$$$$$$$$), and the expert opinion of the day is "well we just need to poke around blindly and see if we find it!". Seriously.

    Now I can't come up with an equivalent for those fields that study Slavic church poetry or whatever the Hell it is that goes on in the humanities, but maybe there are some.
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  9. #9
    Please move to Debate & Discussion forum.

    I don't want my mindless, shallow, inane banter forum clogged up with this serious guff.

  10. #10
    The people on D&D are mean and bad and I don't want them ruining science discussion
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  11. #11
    De Oppresso Liber CitizenCain's Avatar
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    To be fair, I think it is more of an economics discussion than a science one. Or am I missing what you wanted to talk about?

    Publishers, content owners vs content producers, IP, monopoly abuses vs free open source, and all that jazz... seems much more economics-y and political-ish than sciencey.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    I'll leave the defense of humanities to Loki for the sake of our posting history (), but suffice it to say society does actually have interests that are difficult to translate into pure dollar figures.

    Anyway, I personally think what you're describing in your broken GOP-economotalk is a part of the final dispersion of scientific knowledge (granted, I'm only looking at this from the POV of the hard sciences), where each sub-field of a field has become so vast that specialization has to mean abandoning all the rest. Science now advances as an uncontrolled wave-front, everyone pushing the boundary at his or her little corner of it but I doubt anyone has seen the 'big picture' for, Hell, almost a century. Obviously the surrounding society controls the tide somewhat, by funding this instead of that, but each scientist worth her salts will fight for their pet project like a lion, so mindless progress happens throughout, it's just easier in the sexy fields.

    Now, given that no one has a clue on what we're actually producing here, how on Earth is anyone meant to gauge the profitability of each innovation and invention for today's market? It just happens, sometimes, when the industries and science meet through some fortunate and understanding agent; the direct interface between scientist and industrialist is sometimes as problematic as between the scientist and the general.

    Lastly, the idea of for-profit science is also otherwise problematic; sure, the great scientific minds of yore designed better cannons and made horoscopes for their kings, but the university system served the churches and the people, not the merchants. If you think science should solely produce atomic bombs and vaccines, then your task is a simple one. But, let's say you want to build smaller iPads instead. Or the Google equivalent, at any rate. You need an army of materials scientists torturing electrons for who knows how long before they strike data gold. We still don't have room temperature superconductors (if you're not familiar with the concept, let's just say RTSC = $$$$$$$$$$$$$$), and the expert opinion of the day is "well we just need to poke around blindly and see if we find it!". Seriously.

    Now I can't come up with an equivalent for those fields that study Slavic church poetry or whatever the Hell it is that goes on in the humanities, but maybe there are some.
    No GOP-speak here, I think the model for the natural/chemical/biological (IE non-social) sciences makes sense. As you say, incremental discoveries can add-up to something important. And if our governments are funding this basic research, the results should be public. Though there remains a question of patenting something. Arguably, if you discover it (even while on the dole), it makes sense to have an incentive-system built-in with patents.

    It's in the social sciences that things get fuzzy.

  13. #13
    I have a lot more to say on this, but I really can't do it for the next few days. I swear I'll get back to this.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    No GOP-speak here, I think the model for the natural/chemical/biological (IE non-social) sciences makes sense. As you say, incremental discoveries can add-up to something important. And if our governments are funding this basic research, the results should be public. Though there remains a question of patenting something. Arguably, if you discover it (even while on the dole), it makes sense to have an incentive-system built-in with patents.

    It's in the social sciences that things get fuzzy.
    The government is funding the scientists and their institutions, not the journals and publishers. And the purpose of the funding is to advance science in the country, not to make science more accessible to the general public. Now I don't know enough about the business model of the publishers to say whether it's a good one, but I'd be very uncomfortable having the government mandate free access to published articles.

    For Nessus: some academics in poli sci manage to get permission from journals to post their articles for free on their own websites. Is that not allowed in the natural sciences?
    Hope is the denial of reality

  15. #15
    De Oppresso Liber CitizenCain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    The government is funding the scientists and their institutions, not the journals and publishers. And the purpose of the funding is to advance science in the country, not to make science more accessible to the general public. Now I don't know enough about the business model of the publishers to say whether it's a good one, but I'd be very uncomfortable having the government mandate free access to published articles.
    Um, that's not what happens, or what is being proposed. Whatever publisher can still put the paper in their journal and facilitate editing and peer-review and price gouging, but the paper must be made available for free... by, for example, also entering into a free access "journal"/database of academic papers. The free version wouldn't contain the publisher's edits or peer-review system, just the submitted paper itself, but it also wouldn't cost an individual taxpayer (who paid for the research) $10,000 for a look at what they funded.

    Seems like a fair compromise to me - use public funds, make your results freely available to the public somehow. Don't use public funds, do whatever the hell you want with the results.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

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  16. #16
    Then why would anyone subscribe to the paid version of the journal? The journal is still engaged in filtering, since presumably manuscripts that get rejected due to peer review won't appear there.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  17. #17
    De Oppresso Liber CitizenCain's Avatar
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    To get access to the papers submitted by privately funded researchers? Because the journal's editing/review/filtering service is worth the cost? To say "look how much money I have?"

    Not sure why it makes a difference to you, in regards to this topic, anyway - businesses don't have a *right* to sell their product, just the right to try. And if more papers being available for free starts causing these publishers to lose business, that's a healthy market correction, no? They'll either adapt by not price-gouging and/or adding more value to their product, or they'll go under, and new competitors will take their place.

    What's objectionable to you about the free market (in this this instance)? Your views here seem wildly inconsistent with every other economic viewpoint I can remember you ever expressing, which is kinda throwing me for a loop here.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  18. #18
    The point is that no one could possibly read all the crap that people might submit to this central database. Which means someone is going to have to peer-review the stuff. And it will be journals who do the peer-reviews.

    I'm pretty sure any business would start hemorrhaging money if it was forced to offer its services for free. I'm not quite sure which aspect of free market says that you have to be able to compete against a free version of your own services.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  19. #19
    De Oppresso Liber CitizenCain's Avatar
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    I see.

    FOSS, Loki. Not every private organization has to be a for-profit enterprise. Whether a FOSS-style database or journal is a viable, worthwhile enterprise has nothing to do with the sensibility of at least making the end result of science projects funded with public money available to the public. For free.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    For Nessus: some academics in poli sci manage to get permission from journals to post their articles for free on their own websites. Is that not allowed in the natural sciences?
    From what I know (I don't even have a PhD yet! ), it can depend on the journal, sometimes you can have problems re-printing your articles in your PhD thesis! Though that is rare. I'd imagine some journals let you personally spread your papers around, but I can't off-hand say which ones would.
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
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  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by CitizenCain View Post
    I see.

    FOSS, Loki. Not every private organization has to be a for-profit enterprise. Whether a FOSS-style database or journal is a viable, worthwhile enterprise has nothing to do with the sensibility of at least making the end result of science projects funded with public money available to the public. For free.
    And again, who does the peer review? Who sorts the articles by quality? The public money is not going to the entities that would engage in these two processes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    From what I know (I don't even have a PhD yet! ), it can depend on the journal, sometimes you can have problems re-printing your articles in your PhD thesis! Though that is rare. I'd imagine some journals let you personally spread your papers around, but I can't off-hand say which ones would.
    Who does. From what I've been told, a lot depends on your leverage. If you're a big name in the field and a journal doesn't want to lose you as someone who submits articles to them, they're more than willing to be flexible.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  22. #22
    Would make sense, really.
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  23. #23
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    And again, who does the peer review? Who sorts the articles by quality? The public money is not going to the entities that would engage in these two processes.
    However, 36+% profit figures over decades show that something is seriously wrong.
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    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    The government is funding the scientists and their institutions, not the journals and publishers. And the purpose of the funding is to advance science in the country, not to make science more accessible to the general public. Now I don't know enough about the business model of the publishers to say whether it's a good one, but I'd be very uncomfortable having the government mandate free access to published articles.

    For Nessus: some academics in poli sci manage to get permission from journals to post their articles for free on their own websites. Is that not allowed in the natural sciences?
    But the institutions are often using that grant money for specific purposes. The concern here is the institutions (or at least the publishers) are using that taxpayer subsidy to make money, coincidentally by cutting-off access to the research the government paid them to do (directly or indirectly).

    I get this requirement could be disruptive, and possibly destructively so. But I think there is a problem here if our government is paying for research, then allowing the researchers or their publishers to basically hoard their work.

  25. #25
    De Oppresso Liber CitizenCain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    However, 36+% profit figures over decades show that something is seriously wrong.
    I agree that something is very wrong, but not necessarily because of the 36% profit figures. (In this specific instance, yeah, it indicates monopoly abuses and price gouging, IMO, but it could also be an indication that the service provided is much more valuable than the cost of the raw inputs, as is the case with a lot of tech services.)
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    However, 36+% profit figures over decades show that something is seriously wrong.
    Probably a function of the monopoly held by some of these publishers over some prestigious titles. I think the solution is to require at least two publishers to provide access to each major journal (i.e. require each journal to have deals with at least two different publishers).

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    But the institutions are often using that grant money for specific purposes. The concern here is the institutions (or at least the publishers) are using that taxpayer subsidy to make money, coincidentally by cutting-off access to the research the government paid them to do (directly or indirectly).

    I get this requirement could be disruptive, and possibly destructively so. But I think there is a problem here if our government is paying for research, then allowing the researchers or their publishers to basically hoard their work.
    Once again, the publishers don't get grant money - the academics and their universities do.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  27. #27
    Don't many journals charge article publishing fees, btw?
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  28. #28
    From what I've heard, it varies by field. Regardless, the journal editors need money to offset the cost of printing the journals (and for sending a gratuity to reviewers, depending on the field).
    Hope is the denial of reality

  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Once again, the publishers don't get grant money - the academics and their universities do.
    Exactly. But do the publishers pay any fees to the people submitting the work?

  30. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    From what I've heard, it varies by field. Regardless, the journal editors need money to offset the cost of printing the journals (and for sending a gratuity to reviewers, depending on the field).
    I hear most articles in the sciences are consumed digitally anyway, and most or at least many reviewers review for free. Moreover, it's clear from the profits of the major publishing houses that costs are offset :P finally, the govt. pays scientists and institutions but they in turn pay the publishers handsomely in order to be able to do what the govt. pays them to do. Indirectly the govt. pays the journals, but, on the bright side, in order to comply with NIH rules scientists receiving NIH grants have to make their work openly and freely accessible to everyone. Or have I missed something?
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

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