Does the story end here?

**Dreadnaught** · 09-11-2011, 03:02 AM

This point comes around every year, but ten is an important number. This week I was reviewing applicants to live in my building and noticed one of them was born on September 11, 1991. Ten years ago, she was ten years old. It sort of blew my mind for no particular reason.

Recently I haven’t been able to get two thoughts out of my head:

The first is none of my friends ever really spoke to each other about September 11. Perhaps we weren’t emotionally equipped to talk about it then, and maybe we will never reach that point. But it just washed over us. By not talking about it (even with the people who lost someone), I suspect we let it take over a small chunk of our lives. It often gapes at me like some kind of unfinished business. As if there is something I should be doing or saying, but I don’t know what exactly I’m supposed to do.

The second is how weird the world has seemed since Bin Laden was killed. For so long it was easy to build a corner of my consciousness around the idea that he was out there, and that our daily lives were an affront to him. Every day I lived my American-Zionist-capitalist life was a thrilling rebuke. And having latent anger towards someone distant — almost like a ghost from the start — was a great motivator for any of those big-picture goals I've worked for over the past ten years. Now it feels like something is missing.

It was always a matter of time before he died. And I always wondered where I would be when I heard. The last place I expected was on a plane to Spain hearing the news from the pilot over the PA system. It was absolutely a top-ten most shocking moment of my life. Comparable to the sound of the first plane. I could feel an ounce of lingering anger drain out of me, and I’m not sure what should replace it. If my kids ever ask and I choose to talk about it with them, does the story really end here?

Is it finally over? Are we ready for it to be over?

**Lebanese Dragon** · 09-11-2011, 03:19 AM

You and I think so differently. To me the fact of him dying or living really doesn't matter much. It's cool we killed him but Osama bin laden rarely occupied a waking moment of my thinking. Objectives in Afghanistan and Iraq I could mull around in my mind in spurts but even then they don't haunt me, but that said I also was fortunate to not have lost anyone close in September 11th.

I hope you find some positive thoughts to replace the lingering anger that has left you now that Osama has been killed.

**littlelolligagged** · 09-11-2011, 03:22 AM

I don't have the same sort of emotions and reaction that you do. It was horrible, it was tragic, but for me it wasn't some big life-altering event. I didn't even realize anything had happened until several hours later when I finally had both kiddos down for a nap at the same time and flipped on the teevee hoping for some sort of entertainment that wasn't toddler friendly. Even now, I see my friends posting their facebook messages about the importance of the day and I'm not entirely sure where they are coming from - and I even knew people who died. It's not so much a disconnect as it is that I tend to acknowledge a tragedy or event and move on. I found certain aspects of the typical American reaction offensive as well; knowing little kids who are harassed for being Muslim kind of gives a perspective it is hard to shake.

I do, however, know of a lot of kids who are celebrating their birthdays tomorrow; the shock of the day led to a lot of women going into labor.

**GGT** · 09-11-2011, 03:40 AM

Gosh, it's shocking to hear you never really talked about 9/11 with your friends, since you're a New Yorker. Especially for not talking about it with people you knew who lost someone. If you have unfinished business (or emotions) maybe you should start there?

That you found Bin Laden's killing shocking, when it came at the hands of US Seals on a specific mission, leaving you with an unsatisfied and gaping feeling.....devoid of anger and not knowing how to replace or fill that space....well, it sounds like unresolved anger, grief and denial. Those things don't usually go away on their own. Most times those feelings hide and look like "moving on", until they rear their ugly heads when least expected.

If your children ever ask what that/this time was like, I'd say be honest and tell them! But you'll have to sort out your own feelings first.

I'd also say that 9/11 will never be "over", and it shouldn't be forgotten. It's part of our national history now, even global history that changed the world.

Today, I had the opportunity to talk with 3 generations from several states about 9/11. Everyone had different memories, feelings, and context. The kids that were in kindergarten didn't remember what the 1st or 2nd graders did, let alone what the high schoolers or college students did.....but as time went on they were ALL reconfiguring what it meant in their minds, with maturity. We were ALL doing that. One generation was trying not to freak out about flying on 9/11, or saying it was the safest time to fly....but the nervousness was still there. The youngest generations had never known life without this new Terrorism, or the US "at war" that felt far away and distant.

Our eldest (and lone) generation got a wistful look in his eyes, and mentioned Pearl Harbor, and WWII. But then his mind wandered away, lost in old memories and confused by new ones.

It didn't consume us, and we changed the topic naturally. But it would have felt more strange to NOT discuss it, than it was to talk about it, even briefly. The kids were especially interested, because it's now part of their American History classes. Some of them still have not seen full video or news footage, or the documentaries. But they will, in living color. And it will affect them.

**GGT** · 09-11-2011, 03:59 AM

Originally Posted by littlelolligagged

I don't have the same sort of emotions and reaction that you do. It was horrible, it was tragic, but for me it wasn't some big life-altering event. I didn't even realize anything had happened until several hours later when I finally had both kiddos down for a nap at the same time and flipped on the teevee hoping for some sort of entertainment that wasn't toddler friendly. Even now, I see my friends posting their facebook messages about the importance of the day and I'm not entirely sure where they are coming from - and I even knew people who died. It's not so much a disconnect as it is that I tend to acknowledge a tragedy or event and move on. I found certain aspects of the typical American reaction offensive as well; knowing little kids who are harassed for being Muslim kind of gives a perspective it is hard to shake.

I do, however, know of a lot of kids who are celebrating their birthdays tomorrow; the shock of the day led to a lot of women going into labor.

Lolli, for certain things my memory absolutely sucks.

For some things it's as clear as yesterday. I distinctly recall that you posted about 9/11 (quite eloquently) at Atari....that you were watching the twin towers collapse on the tv news, while nursing your son at your mom's house, and being shocked and upset at the time. I'm not sure why I remember that differently than you do, unless that's the "disconnect" you meant.

**Loki** · 09-11-2011, 04:52 AM

Spending much of my time reading and thinking about war, it's kind of hard to feel a personal connection to an event that hurt so many, but no one I actually knew. I am moved when I see some types of stories about the event (I still remember all the people on TV with photos of their loved ones begging people for any news about their whereabouts), but it's not something I think about on a day-to-day basis. There was a story in the Times a few days ago quoting people from 9/11/01 saying how the world would change in every way imaginable - except it never did (excluding the people who had a personal loss).

I am slightly uncomfortable about those claiming to be affected by other people's tragedies. On some level, I think there's an attempt by some to give meaning to their own lives by latching on to the stories of others. Let the friends and relatives of those who died grieve; there's no reason to pretend that you're equally affected by their loss. People die/are killed all the time. Privileging the deaths of some because of who carried out the murder is more than a bit cruel.

**GGT** · 09-11-2011, 05:10 AM

Loki, I'm surprised by your post, too.

Especially since you DO spend much of your time reading and thinking about War, and analyzing policies.

I'm surprised you don't see how many things changed all over the world after 9/11. It's got less to do with others' grief and loss or personal tragedy, but everything to do with global security, public screenings, risk-prevention, coordination of communications, changes in international travel, clamping down on visas or passports....so very many things.

One vital change being that a small group of religious extremist misfits, hiding in desert caves, living what looks like an antiquated 19th century life without modern technology or indoor plumbing could orchestrate such an attack on the US. Supposedly the greatest and most powerful nation on earth, blindsided by a few "crazies" who took suicide/kamikaze missions to the nth degree.

You may not think the world changed, from your perspective, but it really did. There hadn't been an attack on US soil since Pearl Harbor, and that attack led to our involvement in WWII.

**Loki** · 09-11-2011, 05:24 AM

Originally Posted by GGT

Loki, I'm surprised by your post, too.

Especially since you DO spend much of your time reading and thinking about War, and analyzing policies.

I'm surprised you don't see how many things changed all over the world after 9/11. It's got less to do with others' grief and loss or personal tragedy, but everything to do with global security, public screenings, risk-prevention, coordination of communications, changes in international travel, clamping down on visas or passports....so very many things.

When you read about hundreds of wars, it's hard to get a personal connection to any of them. Just think about how a doctor would react to see someone covered in blood compared to how a normal person would react.

And how much effect does that have on an average American's life? 1% of Americans served in Iraq or Afghanistan. Most Americans don't fly very frequently, and all 9/11 did was increase the already obnoxious security procedures. The main effect of 9/11 was on foreign policy, but that's not something most Americans spend much time thinking about, and the foreign policy focus on Islamic fundamentalism has gradually been reduced over the last 6 years or so.

One vital change being that a small group of religious extremist misfits, hiding in desert caves, living what looks like an antiquated 19th century life without modern technology or indoor plumbing could orchestrate such an attack on the US. Supposedly the greatest and most powerful nation on earth, blindsided by a few "crazies" who took suicide/kamikaze missions to the nth degree.

You may not think the world changed, from your perspective, but it really did. There hadn't been an attack on US soil since Pearl Harbor, and that attack led to our involvement in WWII.

That's a myth. Bin Laden never lived in caves. The al-Qaeda leadership lived pretty comfortable lives by the standards of the region. I also fail to see what's so unique about this. Most anti-colonial struggles involved rebels who were no more culturally/technologically/militarily advanced than al-Qaeda. More recently, there are the Chechens, Hamas, Baluchis, etc.

**GGT** · 09-11-2011, 05:53 AM

Originally Posted by Loki

When you read about hundreds of wars, it's hard to get a personal connection to any of them. Just think about how a doctor would react to see someone covered in blood compared to how a normal person would react.

Not sure what you mean. Unless you're comparing yourself to an academic physician who does nothing but read books, analyze studies, and teach theory.... instead of comparing your work to what an ER/Trauma or War zone MASH clinician does?

And how much effect does that have on an average American's life? 1% of Americans served in Iraq or Afghanistan. Most Americans don't fly very frequently, and all 9/11 did was increase the already obnoxious security procedures. The main effect of 9/11 was on foreign policy, but that's not something most Americans spend much time thinking about, and the foreign policy focus on Islamic fundamentalism has gradually been reduced over the last 6 years or so.

1% of soldiers (and support personnel) affects others exponentially. One soldier might have 2 parents, siblings, a spouse and children, co-workers, friends, etc. One community might have a military base, or a depot, with hundreds of interconnecting relationships.

It's a "myth" that most Americans don't pay attention to foreign policy or international diplomacy. The last couple of decades have been fairly fast-moving, and what once used to go on behind closed doors or in smoke-filled rooms, has exploded into Sunshine laws, the press with new technology, the public with new technology (cameras and video on cell phones) and social media. Don't forget that what partially led or fed the Arab Spring was....texting, cell phone pics, twitter and skype, internet posts and blogs.....

That's a myth. Bin Laden never lived in caves. The al-Qaeda leadership lived pretty comfortable lives by the standards of the region. I also fail to see what's so unique about this. Most anti-colonial struggles involved rebels who were no more culturally/technologically/militarily advanced than al-Qaeda. More recently, there are the Chechens, Hamas, Baluchis, etc.

Call it what you want, take it out of context if you wish. Comfortable standards of the region aren't what we'd associate with wealthy Saudis, Abu Dhabi or Dubai....with gold sold in vending machines, luxurious high rises built on man-made sand bars, everyone driving luxury vehicles, buying diamonds for their toilet flush handles. Or whatever else they did with their oil wealth.

Saddam was found hiding underground. Bin Laden reportedly lived in "caves", just as Qaddafi sometimes lived in desert "tents". Bin Laden's living standards looked more like third world than European or US standards. Concrete walls, extension cords, crappy tv, bare mattresses, killing one goat per week, etc....

**Loki** · 09-11-2011, 06:00 AM

Originally Posted by GGT

Not sure what you mean. Unless you're comparing yourself to an academic physician who does nothing but read books, analyze studies, and teach theory.... instead of comparing your work to what an ER/Trauma or War zone MASH clinician does?

How is this any different? You really think someone in ER is horrified every time they see someone with a bullet wound?

It's a "myth" that most Americans don't pay attention to foreign policy or international diplomacy. The last couple of decades have been fairly fast-moving, and what once used to go on behind closed doors or in smoke-filled rooms, has exploded into Sunshine laws, the press with new technology, the public with new technology (cameras and video on cell phones) and social media. Don't forget that what partially led or fed the Arab Spring was....texting, cell phone pics, twitter and skype, internet posts and blogs.....

What are you basing this on? Americans are generally uninformed about foreign policy, don't vote based on foreign policy, and have only a vague idea about the role they want their country to play in the world. A vast majority of the bloggers are partisan hacks who whine about domestic politics, not foreign policy. And the people using the social media in the Arab Spring weren't Americans, so I have no idea why you'd bring it up.

Call it what you want, take it out of context if you wish. Comfortable standards of the region aren't what we'd associate with wealthy Saudis, Abu Dhabi or Dubai....with gold sold in vending machines, luxurious high rises built on man-made sand bars, everyone driving luxury vehicles, buying diamonds for their toilet flush handles. Or whatever else they did with their oil wealth.

Saddam was found hiding underground. Bin Laden reportedly lived in "caves", just as Qaddafi sometimes lived in desert "tents". Bin Laden's living standards looked more like third world than European or US standards. Concrete walls, extension cords, crappy tv, bare mattresses, killing one goat per week, etc....

There's a long history of "evil" leaders living a "humble" life.

**GGT** · 09-11-2011, 06:22 AM

Originally Posted by Loki

How is this any different? You really think someone in ER is horrified every time they see someone with a bullet wound?

A visiting student who's only doing a mandatory 6 week rotation? Yes. A professor who's never spent more than 6 weeks in the ER? Yes.

[Makes me wonder if international relations or global political science students should have new course requirements. Six weeks in an active war zone? Doctorates only after six months spent in active war zones? Professorships only after two years in an active war zone?

]

What are you basing this on? Americans are generally uninformed about foreign policy, don't vote based on foreign policy, and have only a vague idea about the role they want their country to play in the world. A vast majority of the bloggers are partisan hacks who whine about domestic politics, not foreign policy. And the people using the social media in the Arab Spring weren't Americans, so I have no idea why you'd bring it up.

Well, what are YOU basing your information on? What makes you so sure that Americans are generally "uninformed" about foreign policy, or only have a vague idea about what their nation's role in the world should be? Would that be based on information you were taught in school, before the world changed?

Surely you can admit there's a known lag in academia? Between which theories are being reviewed and published and by whom, which published theses are being used as academic texts, which views are being taught to students.....and the origins of The Ivory Tower is now slow to meet reality, until it crashes down like the world trade center buildings....

**GGT** · 09-11-2011, 08:46 AM

So I'll post again and either wait for others to sign on and participate, or read new replies tomorrow.

Not just to Loki, but to everyone: how can there be a denial that things have changed, or that the world has changed? Especially in the last ten years? Google and Apple (and others) has given us a new world of instant information. Truly instant. From every point of experience, from every cell phone or smart phone, and every digital connection.

Plenty of Americans have never flown on an airplane, mostly older or poor people. But they probably have a cell phone or computer connection, and can see live feeds from airport TSA screenings, or on-flight video. News is on cable and satellite, as it happens, no longer with print or edit delays taking time to reach the corner paper stand or news boy, crying, "Breaking news! Hear all about it!", and then ultimately the reader.

Don't underestimate the rapidity of new technology advancements, just because it's something you grew up with, or that's all you ever knew. Even if you were born just ten years ago. Fifteen years ago. Twenty years ago. Don't forget to remember, that all "instant" news immediately makes your previous "current" news as slow as snail mail. In context, anyway.

Watching live events in real time, by millions or billions of people, really IS a newfangled thing. Capturing live events and posting them on youtube really IS a new thing. Having multiple terrorist attacks (both world trade center towers being hit and collapsing, the pentagon on fire, flight 93 crashing into PA fields instead of the capital) captured on phone and video by several people....really IS a new thing. Millions or billions of people being able to view all this reality, at the same time or at short delay times, and reaching out to millions or billions of real people replying...really IS a new thing.

So no, the story doesn't end here. Maybe the modern story begins here.

**Draco** · 09-11-2011, 11:29 AM

Originally Posted by GGT

Not just to Loki, but to everyone: how can there be a denial that things have changed, or that the world has changed? Especially in the last ten years? Google and Apple (and others) has given us a new world of instant information. Truly instant. From every point of experience, from every cell phone or smart phone, and every digital connection.

I haven't been following this thread, but yes the world has definitely changed in response to the 9/11 attacks. Western governments have changed their policies, security measures etc. Companies have changed their policies, particularly construction companies (I don't know if many took into account terrorist attacks before 9/11, but wasn't there an earlier attack on one of the buildings?). Another change that I've noticed (or just reflects my own observations as I've grown up and read into a lot of these issues), is that Left wing philosophy/politics has become a lot more popular. You've got proponents of Left wing philosophy advocating for "acceptance" "tolerance", yet I always wonder: accept someone why? Tolerate them why? Because they hold to some belief/view/ideals that I'm against? Tolerate them to the point where their views end up affecting my life? I hate that whole "open minded" crap. Another thing that is being advocated is political correctness, because god forbid you offend someone and it results in a wild protest in some primitive country. I know a lot of this would have existed before I was born, and whilst I was growing up, but it seems that it's gained a stronger pace ever since 9/11.

Something interesting I watched on Australian TV several weeks ago. Some show was on where they had 4 people from various generations, expressing their views on particular topics. And it was interesting to hear what the elderly man in his late 60s had to say, as opposed to the 40, 30 and 20 year old. The elderly man in his 60s had a definitive stance, the one in her 40s was a bit similar to him (yet exhibited left wing influences), the 30 year old was in the middle-left, and the 20 year old was just "This is my opinion blah blah, but I don't know." One of the topics raised was "is it ok to acknowledge the "traditional land owners" of this country?" The elderly man said no, everyone else said yes. It's interesting to see how influential the Left is in Australia, since this is a rather recent development, recognising the "traditional land owners" of this country. This country that was just an empty lot of land before civilised people came and built cities, infrastructure, introduced agriculture, created a country where you were living as a human, not as some animal.

**Ominous Gamer** · 09-11-2011, 11:57 AM

Originally Posted by Dreadnaught

The second is how weird the world has seemed since Bin Laden was killed. For so long it was easy to build a corner of my consciousness around the idea that he was out there, and that our daily lives were an affront to him. Every day I lived my American-Zionist-capitalist life was a thrilling rebuke. And having latent anger towards someone distant — almost like a ghost from the start — was a great motivator for any of those big-picture goals I've worked for over the past ten years. Now it feels like something is missing.

World hasn't changed.

I mentioned this is the bin laden thread. He was a place holder, something that everyone was able to unite against. Just like the Cold War, communists, Nazis, etc. He will be replaced, with yet another manufactured hatred for some semi-random reason. Problem we have now is that the hatred is focused internally, which the current generation isn't used to.

I have started to wonder if 9/11 is going to end up in the history books as the event that tripped up America. Something we were not able to get past, that we stumbled and lost direction, but never fully recovered from. I know thats an overly simplistic view of the events both before and after 9/11, but history has a habit of doing that. Guess its going to depend on the if, when, and how of getting this country back on track.

Front page of the free paper today:

**Dreadnaught** · 09-11-2011, 03:49 PM

Just got back from Ground Zero with someone. Or as close as non-relatives could get.

It felt a bit uncomfortable, but also sort of good. As if everyone was sort of looking around and saying, "The world didn't end. We're here." I'm glad I did it.

It's been very weird and dramatic to see some of the newscast footage from the attacks themselves. YouTube wasn't around then and you couldn't just go back and easily watch things like that. I've seen plenty of photographs, but I haven't had much of a chance to see motion beyond what I saw myself until I went onto YouTube last night.

**CitizenCain** · 09-12-2011, 10:34 PM

Originally Posted by GGT

Not just to Loki, but to everyone: how can there be a denial that things have changed, or that the world has changed?

Because it hasn't? Whole history of the world and all that, even if you refuse to see it.

WRT 9/11:

Bad Religion - Let Them Eat War

Spoiler:

Meh. Whole history of the world. Amazing how people can still be surprised about the the same things happening over and over again, though.

**GGT** · 09-12-2011, 11:01 PM

Life is dynamic and Time changes all things, even rock and stone. 6 billion people and counting, fighting over food and water, but mostly oil. The uprisings will be twittered and tivoed, youtubed and yahooed. The world has changed.

**CitizenCain** · 09-12-2011, 11:12 PM

Damn, I guess you're right. Even the color of the sky's changed since 9/11!!! It used to be blue, before 9/11, but now it's all orange/yellowy and black.

**Loki** · 09-12-2011, 11:12 PM

Because youtube and twitter wouldn't have been invented if not for 9/11.

And the conflict over oil also only started in 2001.

For anyone who actually thinks 9/11 drastically changed the world, think about all the activities you've been engaged in over the last week. Now think which of them would have been carried out differently if not for 9/11. I guarantee it's not very many.

**GGT** · 09-13-2011, 01:46 AM

Originally Posted by Loki

Because youtube and twitter wouldn't have been invented if not for 9/11.

And the conflict over oil also only started in 2001.

For anyone who actually thinks 9/11 drastically changed the world, think about all the activities you've been engaged in over the last week. Now think which of them would have been carried out differently if not for 9/11. I guarantee it's not very many.

Riight, like I said it was cause and effect. You're attributing things to me, that I never said or even suggested.

I said the world has changed, especially in the last decade, and especially with new technology....that connects billions of people all over the world in real-time. 9/11 did change our politics, airline security, immigration, military, policies, our economy and debt. (At least our reactions did.)

The world is constantly changing. There were plenty of changes after 9/11. Anyone who claims the world stays the same because history repeats itself totally missed my point.

**Loki** · 09-13-2011, 01:52 AM

Thank you for telling me the price of strawberries in Peru.

**GGT** · 09-13-2011, 02:03 AM

Originally Posted by Loki

Thank you for telling me the price of strawberries in Peru.

Then why bother baiting an argument based on things I never said? Slow forum night?

**Loki** · 09-13-2011, 02:39 AM

Read what I wrote and then read your response. After that, you can tell me if you actually read the former.

**Lebanese Dragon** · 09-13-2011, 03:22 AM

For anyone who actually thinks 9/11 drastically changed the world, think about all the activities you've been engaged in over the last week. Now think which of them would have been carried out differently if not for 9/11. I guarantee it's not very many.

If you made a phone call or took a trip on a plane you'd have had used two things which have been changed security wise. I think from the government point of view, and the CIA point of view things have changed a lot. Day to day for us, we live more or less the same. Our country though has changed.

**GGT** · 09-13-2011, 03:36 AM

Originally Posted by Loki

Read what I wrote and then read your response. After that, you can tell me if you actually read the former.

Why don't you explain how your replies actually reflected what I wrote? Again, kindly stop putting words in my mouth, or putting my posts out of context, in order to roll your eyes. If you disagree, then make your case. Without making shit up just to mock me, or others.

**Loki** · 09-13-2011, 03:51 AM

Originally Posted by Lebanese Dragon

If you made a phone call or took a trip on a plane you'd have had used two things which have been changed security wise. I think from the government point of view, and the CIA point of view things have changed a lot. Day to day for us, we live more or less the same. Our country though has changed.

Clinton started the large-scale wiretapping program. I doubt most people here flew on a plane in the last week.

Originally Posted by GGT

Why don't you explain how your replies actually reflected what I wrote? Again, kindly stop putting words in my mouth, or putting my posts out of context, in order to roll your eyes. If you disagree, then make your case. Without making shit up just to mock me, or others.

I'm just amazed how you can say that with a straight face. This entire thread is you responding to things I've never said.

**GGT** · 09-13-2011, 04:23 AM

Originally Posted by Loki

Clinton started the large-scale wiretapping program. I doubt most people here flew on a plane in the last week.

I'm just amazed how you can say that with a straight face. This entire thread is you responding to things I've never said.

And I'm amazed how you've taken this thread to include who started wiretapping (translation = which Political Party). Plus your strange tangents about ER doctors, quotes and anecdotes from the Times (you admitted to not personally understanding) in order to explain why you, the personal YOU, didn't have an emotional reaction or connection to 9/11. Hmm, must be an "emotional thing" in your mind?

Then you try to say it's all the same....the History of War....or the presence of Evil. Bad shit happens all over the world, and always has, nothing's new here---move along folks? Repetitions of human behavior share certain traits, so the same is all the same? Ego, the world has not changed?

Bullshit.

**Nessus** · 09-13-2011, 04:49 AM

Originally Posted by CitizenCain

Because it hasn't? Whole history of the world and all that, even if you refuse to see it.

WRT 9/11:

Bad Religion - Let Them Eat War

Spoiler:

Meh. Whole history of the world. Amazing how people can still be surprised about the the same things happening over and over again, though.

Spoiler:

**GGT** · 09-13-2011, 05:00 AM

That's creepy.

Anyway, those who say the world hasn't changed, may as well try to argue that music hasn't changed, either.

**Ominous Gamer** · 09-13-2011, 11:30 AM

Originally Posted by Loki

Now think which of them would have been carried out differently if not for 9/11.

Whats the criteria for this? Knowing you, you are likely pass off every example as something that was bound to happen, already happening in some other remote location, or not connected to anything in any form.

I know my job has changed a great deal because of records we are now forced to keep, that we didn't have to keep before 9/11. I know that librarians are commonly finding themselves aligned against local and government officials because of their stance on information access and privacy. I know these and most of our current problems can be tied to the patriot act.

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