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Thread: Al Guardian of Palestine and Wall Street

  1. #241
    Senior Member Draco's Avatar
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    Yes, lets protest the system that has given the Western world such a higher standard of living, that has made it possible for it to advance to the level that it's at today, and in its place, lets advocate for a system that has destroyed so many countries, and killed so many innocents at the same time too, woo because it's such a wonderful system, that's why half of Europe couldn't wait to be rid of it.

    I'd throw this in their face:


    I doubt Steve Jobs was busy attending to anti-capitalist protests, sitting about, whining and having the audacity to say what should be done with other peoples wealth/property

  2. #242
    Er. Jobs is hardly representative of, well, anyone.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  3. #243
    Senior Member Draco's Avatar
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    ^^The fact that he made something out of himself, from essentially nothing (if you watched that video you posted in the tribute thread, you'd know) says something about the mindset he was in, and the mindset these protesters are in.

    Actually a VERY interesting video that's somewhat related to this thread (the graph is pretty cool actually, and in the end he compares the US with China):



    It's interesting to note that the introduction/rise of capitalism as the core system in the West coincided with a rise in life expectancy and rise in income per person from the 19th century up to 2007. Interesting yes?

  4. #244
    Quote Originally Posted by Draco View Post
    ....
    I doubt Steve Jobs was busy attending to anti-capitalist protests, sitting about, whining and having the audacity to say what should be done with other peoples wealth/property
    Is that what you think the protests are about? Sitting about and whining? Plenty of the participants are working their jobs and taking their time off to be active. Because it's important to them. Jobs was an early hippie type, which may explain why Apple employees were treated very well. Ditto for Bill Gates, who donated plenty of money to build Seattle as a premiere city. Or Google employees who have access to an entire work campus-compound with child care, 24 hour food service, and electric car plug-in hubs.

    That's not what the Occupy people are protesting. I'm confident you can figure out what they're protesting, if you put your mind to it.

  5. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by Draco View Post
    I doubt Steve Jobs was busy attending to anti-capitalist protests, sitting about, whining and having the audacity to say what should be done with other peoples wealth/property
    No, but he did admit his LSD use was one of the most important events in his life

    Damn those immoral hippies and their teenage corrupting drug use!
    Last edited by Ominous Gamer; 10-10-2011 at 12:28 PM.
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  6. #246
    Senior Member Draco's Avatar
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    ^^Ooh, I bet you're giving yourself a pat on the back now for quickly interjecting that. Good for him if a drug helped him at some point in his life. It's just too bad that many others didn't quite 'make it'.

    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Is that what you think the protests are about? Sitting about and whining? Plenty of the participants are working their jobs and taking their time off to be active. Because it's important to them. Jobs was an early hippie type, which may explain why Apple employees were treated very well.
    I doubt whether it has anything to do with him being "an early hippie type" rather he saw the reasoning and benefit behind treating his employees very well, as opposed to not.

    That's not what the Occupy people are protesting. I'm confident you can figure out what they're protesting, if you put your mind to it.
    To be honest I haven't been following this event, only read a few sentences here and there, saw some news clips and that's about it. But some of their 'demands' I've come across paint a clear picture of their motive(s).

  7. #247
    Quote Originally Posted by Draco View Post
    ^^The fact that he made something out of himself, from essentially nothing
    It's the "essentially nothing" part I object to. Essentially nothing? He grew up in a two-parent household, raised by a man and a woman who loved him. He was introduced to electronics by his dad. He grew up in one of the most educated small towns and went to school more or less in the Silicon Valley. He hanged out at HP. Sure he dropped out of the programme he started but he hanged around auditing classes nevertheless. He had the good fortune of attending a calligraphy course he was able to attend the Homebrew Computer Club. He was lucky enough to meet Wozniak. HE DID LSD AND LOVED IT

    I'm not trying to dismiss attitude as being unimportant. I just don't think Jobs is the best choice in the world for trying to make sense of the world. There're over six billion people of which only one is Steve Jobs. He's an inspiration, but was never your average joe and taking his accomplishments out of context reduces his ability to say meaningful things about our world.

    It's interesting to note that the introduction of capitalism as the core system in the West coincided with a rise in life expectancy and rise in income per person from the 19th century up to 2007. Interesting yes?
    Do you really think it's interesting?

    Do you think it's interesting that the US is in the 36th place if you look at life expectancy at birth?

    Do you think it's interesting that the positive trend in life expectancy has either stagnated or reversed in several parts of the US? That, if you look at various groups within the US, you see a far less rosy picture?

    I don't know enough about history. I'd be interested in knowing how important colonialism was to the maintenance of capitalist societies during eg. industrialisation.




    I don't dispute that capitalism has brought great benefits to the West, but let's not worship it blindly.

    Re. OWS, I hope they can get back to the question of the odd relationships governments have with Wall Street.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  8. #248
    Quote Originally Posted by Draco View Post
    I doubt whether it has anything to do with him being "an early hippie type" rather he saw the reasoning and benefit behind treating his employees very well, as opposed to not.
    You don't know much about the 60's or 70's in the US, or how that shaped peoples' values, do you? You're using today's standards to judge history, and that's probably not the best metric.


    To be honest I haven't been following this event, only read a few sentences here and there, saw some news clips and that's about it. But some of their 'demands' I've come across paint a clear picture of their motive(s).
    At least you're honest about your ignorance. The protestors have not made any "demands", and the media can't figure out their "motives". It's a grass-roots social movement undergoing a process. It could fizzle into nothing, or bloom into something. That's its beauty.


    edit to Draco: the rise in life expectancy wasn't due to capitalism, but to medical science.

  9. #249
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  10. #250
    Senior Member Draco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    It's the "essentially nothing" part I object to. Essentially nothing? He grew up in a two-parent household, raised by a man and a woman who loved him. He was introduced to electronics by his dad. He grew up in one of the most educated small towns and went to school more or less in the Silicon Valley. He hanged out at HP.
    It's not as if he inherited some vast fortune, or a company, and was then able to build upon from that. He obviously took it upon himself to educate himself on certain topics, to go to those lectures at HP, the calligraphy course and so on. In the end he put it upon himself to improve his own life, to develop a product (along with others) and make something out of it.

    Sure he dropped out of the programme he started but he hanged around auditing classes nevertheless. He had the good fortune of attending a calligraphy course he was able to attend the Homebrew Computer Club. He was lucky enough to meet Wozniak.
    Yeah that's the thing, he was obviously going out there to make something of himself.

    HE DID LSD AND LOVED IT
    Wow, he must have loved it so much that he forgot to include it in his speech at Stanford Obviously there's a reason why he didn't include the use of drugs in his speech (and before anyone decides to jump on my case, twist my argument and what not, it's because a lot of people end up doing more harm than good to themselves)

    I'm not trying to dismiss attitude as being unimportant. I just don't think Jobs is the best choice in the world for trying to make sense of the world. There're over six billion people of which only one is Steve Jobs. He's an inspiration, but was never your average joe and taking his accomplishments out of context reduces his ability to say meaningful things about our world.
    I was just using him as an example as someone who went out of their way to make something of themselves (I could name others, beginning in the 19th century), yet you have these protesters complaining that 1% of Americans are rich/millionaires or whatever.


    Do you really think it's interesting?

    Do you think it's interesting that the US is in the 36th place if you look at life expectancy at birth?

    Do you think it's interesting that the positive trend in life expectancy has either stagnated or reversed in several parts of the US? That, if you look at various groups within the US, you see a far less rosy picture?
    Well I'm not looking into particular cases of how certain states fare, or regions, etc. The video just showed the country as a whole.

    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    You don't know much about the 60's or 70's in the US, or how that shaped peoples' values, do you? You're using today's standards to judge history, and that's probably not the best metric.
    You're right, I don't know much about those time periods. Just that, even if it was some 'hippy-inclinations', he obviously saw the benefit in treating his employees well.

    edit to Draco: the rise in life expectancy wasn't due to capitalism, but to medical science.
    That's true (the part about it being due to medical science). But it was a free (more or less) system that encouraged/allowed the advancement of medical science as technology changed. There's obviously a positive correlation with the rise of capitalism and the rise of life expectancy, along with income.

  11. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by Draco View Post
    Wow, he must have loved it so much that he forgot to include it in his speech at Stanford Obviously there's a reason why he didn't include the use of drugs in his speech (and before anyone decides to jump on my case, twist my argument and what not, it's because a lot of people end up doing more harm than good to themselves)
    its called context, you've shown a difficulty in understanding such a concept in previous discussions.
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  12. #252
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Drives me nuts. How about you, Fuzzy, what do you think about our process? Do you think it's "working"?
    I think I'm not you. You view questions as a chance to express yourself and expect everyone else to view them the same way and so want them to be as open-ended as possible. I do not view questions as a chance for expression. I view them as a request for information and while I acknowledge they have other uses, when I answer a question what I want to do is convey requested information as best I can. I don't like open-ended questions because they make doing that very and unnecessarily hard.

    And what's really aggravating with you is that while you like to use open-ended questions, you aren't actually looking for the sort of answers open-ended questions generate. You frequently start shouting at posters like Loki and I because we aren't providing the answers you wanted to hear.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  13. #253

  14. #254
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    Sort of says it all.
    Exce

    No

    I'm sorry

    I'm glad you're happy, though
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  15. #255
    Lolwut?

    Seriously. Whycome am I wrong to interpret that as a foot-in-mouth sign?

  16. #256

  17. #257
    Apparently the collapse of Bretton Woods and the gold standard in the early '70s was not a major economic crisis.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  18. #258
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    Lolwut?

    Seriously. Whycome am I wrong to interpret that as a foot-in-mouth sign?
    In some ways it'd be like posting quotes from your Rule 12 violations in a discussion about your fitness and saying, "Says it all, really." Or, for that matter, jumping on you every time you "make a joke", slicing and dicing and taking things out of context and whatnot.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  19. #259
    Dread. Tea Party. Hitler sign. Says it all?

    Isn't this just as grass roots as the Tea Party? Should you not be going: "the American people feel *something or the other* ..." based on the Wall Street Protests? You did wheel that out for the Tea Party, what has changed?. Should you not be applying the same standards to both?

    This is a little more elaborate than a home-made sign. Says it all?
    I could have had class. I could have been a contender.
    I could have been somebody. Instead of a bum
    Which is what I am

    I aim at the stars
    But sometimes I hit London

  20. #260
    WE ARE LEGION
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  21. #261
    Jesus people, this isn't some kind of racist sign. It's a sign about wealth that inadvertently puts feet in mouths. You act like I'm building my entire view of the world around that one stupid sign.

    Instead of either chuckling with it, agreeing with it or calling it dumb, you're immediately bringing-in other issues, other bad signs and comparisons of racism. Because the existence of one bad sign is negated by the existence of another bad sign. Do you not see how intellectually shallow that is

    Want me to get serious? Fine. I think "Everyone should be poor then everyone would be rich" is a sign that represents a lot of the other signs and chants that I saw on OWS on Sunday. Broadly speaking, many of the signs called for a some kind of socialism and/or large-scale leveling of income and assets. This particular sign I posted (which was actually from Philadelphia) is an extension of that, but also belies a flaw in the implied solution of what the protestors seem to be complaining about.

    Happy/less uptight anyone?

  22. #262
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    Jesus people, this isn't some kind of racist sign. It's a sign about wealth that inadvertently puts feet in mouths. You act like I'm building my entire view of the world around that one stupid sign.

    Instead of either chuckling with it, agreeing with it or calling it dumb, you're immediately bringing-in other issues, other bad signs and comparisons of racism. Because the existence of one bad sign is negated by the existence of another bad sign. Do you not see how intellectually shallow that is

    Want me to get serious? Fine. I think "Everyone should be poor then everyone would be rich" is a sign that represents a lot of the other signs and chants that I saw on OWS on Sunday. Broadly speaking, many of the signs called for a some kind of socialism and/or large-scale leveling of income and assets. This particular sign I posted (which was actually from Philadelphia) is an extension of that, but also belies a flaw in the implied solution of what the protestors seem to be complaining about.

    Happy/less uptight anyone?
    Personally (we are not actually legion!), I'm saddened.
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  23. #263
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    Jesus people, this isn't some kind of racist sign. It's a sign about wealth that inadvertently puts feet in mouths. You act like I'm building my entire view of the world around that one stupid sign.

    Instead of either chuckling with it, agreeing with it or calling it dumb, you're immediately bringing-in other issues, other bad signs and comparisons of racism. Because the existence of one bad sign is negated by the existence of another bad sign. Do you not see how intellectually shallow that is
    Then dear Dreadsy, what did you mean by: "Sort of says it all."

    Comparison of racism? Where?
    I could have had class. I could have been a contender.
    I could have been somebody. Instead of a bum
    Which is what I am

    I aim at the stars
    But sometimes I hit London

  24. #264
    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
    Comparison of racism? Where?
    There's that anti-Semitism thread we have going on in the forum issues, uh, forum.
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  25. #265
    Them semites get all the indignation.

    The intellectual shallow are always thrown under the bus for not being able to understand when it is ok to use Le Standard Double, and when it's Anti-Semi-Racism.

    edit: Some signs though ...





    Last edited by Ziggy Stardust; 10-12-2011 at 03:06 PM.
    I could have had class. I could have been a contender.
    I could have been somebody. Instead of a bum
    Which is what I am

    I aim at the stars
    But sometimes I hit London

  26. #266
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    Want me to get serious? Fine. I think "Everyone should be poor then everyone would be rich" is a sign that represents a lot of the other signs and chants that I saw on OWS on Sunday. Broadly speaking, many of the signs called for a some kind of socialism and/or large-scale leveling of income and assets. This particular sign I posted (which was actually from Philadelphia) is an extension of that, but also belies a flaw in the implied solution of what the protestors seem to be complaining about.

    Happy/less uptight anyone?
    I certainly did read your earlier post as something along the lines of, "As you can clearly see, the protesters enjoy being satirical."
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  27. #267
    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
    edit: Some signs though ...
    Cool, those are like the protests in 1980 in Zürich whose main slogan was: "Down with the alps! Free view on the Mediterranean sea."
    "Wer Visionen hat, sollte zum Arzt gehen." - Helmut Schmidt

  28. #268
    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post

    Isn't this just as grass roots as the Tea Party?
    Yes. And not all that much more relevant than the original Tea Party apperances. The ones with a handful of people dressing in powdered wigs that only really got news coverage from Comedy Central. They were smaller but they had a readily understandable and workable platform.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    I certainly did read your earlier post as something along the lines of, "As you can clearly see, the protesters enjoy being satirical."
    Maybe it's because I went to a very hippy college, but I figured she meant it.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  29. #269
    Another frontpage CNN article

    NEW YORK (CNNMoney) -- A lot of lip service has been paid to the idea that Occupy Wall Street lacks focus. The critics ask: What's the goal of these protests? Everyone wants something different.

    Which is exactly the point.

    It's easy to trivialize Occupy Wall Street -- even as it inspires similar protests around the country -- by saying the movement lacks an end game. The group is trying to crowdsource its list of goals, which all but guarantees that no major ones will be set.

    A demand list of sorts has appeared on the official Occupy Wall Street page, serving as an ever-changing document on which people can comment with their own suggestions. It has also served as fodder for critics like Fox News, which posted a version of the list and suggested that readers "try not to laugh."

    But no list has been endorsed by the "general assembly" at Occupy Wall Street, says press team member Mark Bray, who added that "making a list of three or four demands would have ended the conversation before it started."

    Occupy Wall Street has already achieved what it set out to do.

    Like the "Arab Spring" uprisings that inspired its tactics, the word-of-mouth demonstration has tapped into a collective anger. Some protesters are upset about taxation; for others, the big issue is the high unemployment rate. Or corporate greed. Or the distribution of wealth.

    How Occupy Wall Street has evolved
    For all the individual reasons that draw people to Occupy Wall Street, a similar undercurrent ties the protesters together. They're upset about inequities in their country. They're angry. They want their voices to be heard.

    "The guys in Washington are supposed to be helping me, but they don't get it with their mansions and their millions," says an unemployed nurse at the protest on Wednesday, who declined to give her name. "They don't understand my situation and they don't want to hear me. Well, now they'll have to hear all of us."

    Lawmakers including President Obama have weighed in on Occupy Wall Street, with many sympathetic to the emotion behind the protests. Large labor unions, including the AFL-CIO and SEIU, have joined in. Media outlets are at the scene in droves. Even a corporate board has shown support: Ben & Jerry's directors released a statement "to express our deepest admiration."

    The mere fact that the protest is still going strong after 25 days is means it has met one of its goals: Organizers said from the start that they hoped to sustain their demonstration for two months. Occupy Wall Street's real goal has always been simple: Draw focus to the concerns -- and anger -- many Americans have about the country's growing economic gap, plant the seed of an organized voice, and let the protest evolve naturally.

    As part of that evolution, solidarity protests have popped up in Los Angeles, Boston, San Francisco, Denver and Chicago, among other cities.

    "We don't want New York to form its own political agenda and drive the conversation in other cities," Bray says. "I would be unhappy if people in LA or Chicago were waiting on us to do something. That would be politics as usual."

    That's why Occupy Wall Street isn't focused on a demand list, Bray says.

    "To tell everyone that we have the solution to their specific problems, that would be what the political parties are already doing," Bray says. "That isn't working. And that's the whole point."

    The original plan was to continue the occupation for two months, and then wrap it up. But Bray says that "has been entirely thrown out the window, and we have no set timeframe in mind."

    So what happens as the weeks go on?

    That's up to the crowd. Occupy Wall Street is a symbolic protest, but with the economy still sputtering and the wealth gap growing, it's a potent symbol.
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  30. #270
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    Yes. And not all that much more relevant than the original Tea Party apperances. The ones with a handful of people dressing in powdered wigs that only really got news coverage from Comedy Central. They were smaller but they had a readily understandable and workable platform.
    Initially, the Taxed Enough Already people were protesting taxes, and the Affordable Health Care Act as SSSocialized medicine. While, ironically, plenty of old white people held signs saying HAND OFF MY MEDICARE. The Constitutional people joined in, with Don't Tread On Me signs.

    The reason it turned into phase two with a more organized platform was due (in large part) to the millions of dollars from Dick Armey's and Koch Brothers Freedom Works, and Americans For Prosperity, co-opting Tea Party Patriots into the mainstream Republican agenda. Palin and Bachmann were quick to support the movement, Tea Party Express and all. Norquist's Americans for Tax Reform jumped in and got plenty to sign his "pledge". Plus, there was a ton of positive media coverage from Fox News and its cohorts, legitimizing even the guys wearing Paul Revere garb.

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