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Thread: The Fourth Quadrant: A map of the limits of statistics

  1. #31
    How about the "crusade" about how the Federal Reserve operates, which is most often in favor of Big Banks (because they're Too Big and Too Systemically Important to Fail), and the connection between Wall Street and Main Street (when it comes to housing and monetizing debt)?

    8) Do not confuse absence of volatility with absence of risks. Recall how conventional metrics of using volatility as an indicator of stability has fooled Bernanke—as well as the banking system.

    http://www.marketwatch.com/story/fed...1?pagenumber=1

    Several Fed officials have stressed in recent days that they would favor more quantitative easing, or QE3.
    On Thursday night, Federal Reserve Governor Daniel Tarullo, who has left monetary policy to other officials as he focused on regulation of financial markets, gave an impassioned speech advocating more mortgage-backed securities purchases.
    “I believe we should move back up toward the top of the list of [easing] options the large-scale purchase of additional mortgage-backed securities,” Tarullo said in a speech at Columbia University.
    Tarullo portrayed the labor market in grim terms.


    Ressler noted that there would be deep opposition on the Fed to more quantitative easing.
    Michelle Girard, senior economist at RBS Securities, said she doubted that any more purchases of mortgage-backed securities would cure the economy’s ills.
    The Fed purchased $1.25 trillion of asset-backed securities from 2009 until March 2010.
    “I don’t think buying mortgages is going to bring down the interest rate on a mortgage and even if it did, I don’t think it would have much impact on the housing sector,” Girard said.
    The Fed risks looking powerless, she added.
    “The more they do and the more things don’t improve, I think raises the risk that policy-makers appear impotent,” Girard said.


    What would buying MORE MBSs accomplish, besides letting investment banks (or proprietary trading desks) use more fuzzy accounting to appear solvent, or get crap off their books? Why should the Fed hold these toxic crappy "securitized investment vehicles"? Is that even consistent with their congressional mandate?





  2. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    After rubbing my eyes and reading more of this, I can appreciate some of the truisms he's spouting out there because I agree with them. But I can't help avoid the sense that he's just making opinions and slapping-on some statistical vocabulary as part of his crusade against how Wall Street works.
    You make it sound like it's silly to be highly critical of how Wall Street conducts its business
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  3. #33
    I'm not saying that at all. I am critical of how Wall Street works. But I assign a hefty amount of blame to government incentives.

    But people can look unhinged when they grasp at any discipline/intellectual framework out there to criticize something. Just like "Queers for Palestine" protestors are easy to mock. Ditto with animal rights protestors who use Marxist explanations for why we aren't all vegetarians.

  4. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    I'm not saying that at all. I am critical of how Wall Street works. But I assign a hefty amount of blame to government incentives.
    Why? And to whom/what do you assign the remainder of the blame?

    But people can look unhinged when they grasp at any discipline/intellectual framework out there to criticize something. Just like "Queers for Palestine" protestors are easy to mock. Ditto with animal rights protestors who use Marxist explanations for why we aren't all vegetarians.
    Explain how that is relevant to this thread it kinda looks like you're grasping at straws to criticize a reasonable position whose major flaw is that it doesn't make a sufficiently great show of vilifying your favourite ideological enemy. Would it ease your discomfort if you learned that he spends much of his time blasting the US government as well?
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  5. #35
    Primarily government and Wall Street.

    As I said before, I don't necessarily have problems with this guy's positions per se. I agree with some of them, if not all of the bullet points listed. However, I have trouble with people who have what are basically political and economic views analyzing those issues in arcane and tangential ways. Hence, "Marxist Animal Liberators" and "[Banking is] a scientist-charlatan putting society at risk using statistical methods."

    He's acting like he has some sort of unique insight into the financial crisis because he's a "true" statistician who saw problems with our bank's bonus systems, mortgage backed securities, government subsidies of mortgages, etc. in ways others didn't. That's plainly false; lots of people had problems with the status quo before 2008.

  6. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    As I said before, I don't necessarily have problems with this guy's positions per se. I agree with some of them, if not all of the bullet points listed. However, I have trouble with people who have what are basically political and economic views analyzing those issues in arcane and tangential ways. Hence, "Marxist Animal Liberators" and "[Banking is] a scientist-charlatan putting society at risk using statistical methods."
    As a Wall Street Hotshot, how do you (the WSH) justify and encourage the kind of behaviour you engaged in that led to the banking crisis? How do you end up thinking it's a good idea to be so ridiculously overleveraged on overvalued and extremely risky assets, and how do you manage to get those risky assets rated AAA? How do you manage to get banks, traders, investors, ratings agencies and regulatory agencies to ignore the problems?

    Do you think statistics-based models and assumptions may factor into that in some way?

    If yes then do you think maybe you can get your feelings under some control and just concede that this Marxist Animal Liberators stuff is irrelevant?

    He's acting like he has some sort of unique insight into the financial crisis because he's a "true" statistician who saw problems with our bank's bonus systems, mortgage backed securities, government subsidies of mortgages, etc. in ways others didn't. That's plainly false; lots of people had problems with the status quo before 2008.
    Indeed lots of people saw problems with the situation, but many more (most?) didn't, and despite the apparently obvious problems you ended up with a totally FUBARed situation. Clearly there's a disconnect between what's known or knowable and what you get in reality from financial experts.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  7. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    Do you think statistics-based models and assumptions may factor into that in some way?
    Are you going to use a constant to explain change? Finance people have used statistical models for decades. It's like blaming deaths in the hospital on the fact that doctors use medical tools.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  8. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Are you going to use a constant to explain change? Finance people have used statistical models for decades.
    Hang on, is this the first time they've gotten into trouble for it?

    It's like blaming deaths in the hospital on the fact that doctors use medical tools.
    Often entirely appropriate to do so. Doctors kill people all the time by [mis]using both physical and mental tools Didn't you know that drugs kill? It's not for nothing that Taleb compares this stuff with iatrogenics.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  9. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    Hang on, is this the first time they've gotten into trouble for it?
    What are financial people supposed to make their decisions on if not statistical models?

    Often entirely appropriate to do so. Doctors kill people all the time by [mis]using both physical and mental tools Didn't you know that drugs kill? It's not for nothing that Taleb compares this stuff with iatrogenics.
    And the point is that it's not the general use of medical tools that kills, but rather the use of the wrong tools or the improper use of tools.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  10. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    What are financial people supposed to make their decisions on if not statistical models?
    Well that's a good question. Maybe they could use some of the great insight Dread alluded to earlier? Maybe they could make their decisions based on awareness of the limitations of the market and those who're involved in it? I realise financial people, like all other slaves, need some way to generate busywork and thus $$$ but is that a legitimate interest to defend?

    And the point is that it's not the general use of medical tools that kills, but rather the use of the wrong tools or the improper use of tools.
    This lesson applies to finance as well as to medicine the tools and their users are inherently limited in both arenas of human activity of course. Inadvertent misuse isn't exactly rare. And even with apparently proper use of our best tools you have to weigh harms and benefits. Not doing anything but watching is often the best thing we can do.

    You do know that we can't reliably win over every medical problem, right? Even if we do everything "right" and "by the book" we often end up losing. Is it because we're doing the wrong things? Sure, by definition it must be so. Does that mean that there's always something right that we could do in order to win, every single time? Of course not.



    But, you know how it is. Doctors have to look busy. We can't just wait and see. We're not allowed to ackowledge that there are limits to what can be done or what can be known. So you get a million CT-scans and overuse of drugs what can one expect with patients breathing down our necks for great quarterly profits or at least a show of frenetic activity?
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  11. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Are you going to use a constant to explain change? Finance people have used statistical models for decades. It's like blaming deaths in the hospital on the fact that doctors use medical tools.
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    What are financial people supposed to make their decisions on if not statistical models?

    And the point is that it's not the general use of medical tools that kills, but rather the use of the wrong tools or the improper use of tools.
    What a strange comparison. "Finance people" aren't analogous to physicians, let alone their "tools". Even though both professions use statistical models...and sometimes clients bite the dust, especially those on the outer fringes....there's a huge difference between losing money and dying.

  12. #42
    No, it's a great comparison, it highlights the limitations of humans and their tools as well as the human drive to use whatever tool it has handy--no matter how inappropriate--and whatever data happens to come to mind--no matter how misleading--because he simply must use something to do something.

    We mess things up in finance for many of the same reasons that we mess things up in medicine. There's a large body of literature on the many ways humans can and do mess up due to the way we're wired.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  13. #43
    Loki already knows this, but for those who haven't come across this wonderman:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Kahneman
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  14. #44
    There are some who go into medicine "to make a ton of money", as hedonists, but I'd say they're a minority. Conversely, I don't know of any financial wizard who wants to work at a Wall Street hedge fund "to help poor people". Their motivations are different at the outset.

    Reading about the OWS movement, I stumbled upon this:

    http://www.stopthebraindrain.org/

    Every year, however, up to 25% of graduates from top universities are hired to work for financial institutions – reducing our nation’s supply of job-creating entrepreneurs, scientists, and public servants, and weakening America’s economic dynamism.
    Enough is enough: it’s time for America to stop the Wall Street brain drain.


    Does that go along with the Hedonistic Theory of Human Behavior, and why so many very gifted math quants and physics talents don't go into discovery fields, R & D for the government....but are lured to Wall Street? For the money? More money in one year than they could make in 10 or 20, without having to bother with publishing or teaching?

  15. #45
    ... I think you're trying to fit square pegs into irregular holes. This is a thread centered around the limits of statistics, with a particular focus on how we relate to those limits and on what the consequences might be in the financial sector. It's not an OWS protest with a particular focus on "shame on you". Sorry but that's just the way it is.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  16. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    ... I think you're trying to fit square pegs into irregular holes. This is a thread centered around the limits of statistics, with a particular focus on how we relate to those limits and on what the consequences might be in the financial sector. It's not an OWS protest with a particular focus on "shame on you". Sorry but that's just the way it is.
    It seemed fairly clear that the consequences of the financial sector's business model, not just Wall Street but also the eurozone---pushing banking/borrowing/debt statistical limits beyond its useful purpose---was within this thread's focus. If anything fits into the "Fourth Quadrant", where math models hit their limits, it's monetizing sovereign debt and currency trades, monetizing healthcare or education debt, and especially monetizing home mortgage debt. (Which led to CDOs, mortgage-backed securities, and credit default swaps).

  17. #47
    I was referring specifically to this post of yours:

    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    There are some who go into medicine "to make a ton of money", as hedonists, but I'd say they're a minority. Conversely, I don't know of any financial wizard who wants to work at a Wall Street hedge fund "to help poor people". Their motivations are different at the outset.

    Reading about the OWS movement, I stumbled upon this:

    http://www.stopthebraindrain.org/

    [/I]

    Does that go along with the Hedonistic Theory of Human Behavior, and why so many very gifted math quants and physics talents don't go into discovery fields, R & D for the government....but are lured to Wall Street? For the money? More money in one year than they could make in 10 or 20, without having to bother with publishing or teaching?
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  18. #48
    Okay, so why did you link to Daniel Kahneman, and call him a "wonderman"? Was it to relate human behavior that strives to do good, or behave in moralistic ways? Or was it to highlight what some people do to make money, regardless of whom they hurt?

    Looks again at your signature quoting Bill Gates

  19. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Okay, so why did you link to Daniel Kahneman, and call him a "wonderman"? Was it to relate human behavior that strives to do good, or behave in moralistic ways? Or was it to highlight what some people do to make money, regardless of whom they hurt?

    Looks again at your signature quoting Bill Gates
    GGT, my signature appears under every single post I make Every single one. The other day I reposted Lor's "Adventures of Dreadsie" comic.

    I linked to Kahneman and called him a wonderman because he's done very important and very interesting research on things that are relevant to this discussion, not because of any particular interest in morality or evil on my part. None of this has to do with the virtuousness of doctors or with your brain-drain link. Seriously
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  20. #50
    ...very important and very interesting research on things that are relevant to this discussion...
    Agreed. And of course you're not evil! But I'd be surprised if your medical education, on the way to becoming a trusted physician, didn't include an interest in morality. Helping the most people as possible, using medical statistical models that also includes weighing financial costs and quality of life for patients is paramount in a physician's education.

    Not quite what a financier or trader has in mind, when they're willing to trade/sell junk, or raise costs in commodities like food and fuel, knowing it will kill millions of granny pension funds, but get them a hefty fee or bonus. Short term over long term, self over greater good.

    That's why the financial industry isn't comparable to the medical industry, even though both rely on statistical models. As I see it, that's another limitation of the Fourth Quadrant and limits of statistics: it can't compute motives or morality.

  21. #51
    As a med-student I'm also interested in poop but that doesn't mean my every conversation has to be about poop. As a Bengal, I'm interested in Bangladesh, but most of my conversations are not about Bangladesh. As a geek, I'm very interested in Android, yet only a few of my threads are about Android. My underpants thread was directed at you more than at anyone else: just because you can find some justification for saying that something is connected to something else doesn't mean that the two are connected in so meaningful a sense as to warrant action (eg. an investment in terms of time, attention, money, etc). Please try to understand this and in the future please try to leave room in a discussion for what people are saying as opposed to forcing their posts to fit into what you think they should be saying, or what you want them to say, or what you thought they said.





    The financial industry is comparable in several ways to the medical industry. Why is that so surprising and so impossible to accept? Are the players in the medical industry immune to the incentives and biases that beset those in the financial industry? Is medicine free of financial concerns? Is the challenge of planning and forecasting and analysing risk not relevant to a healthcare system?

    The comparison isn't essential to the discussion, and no doubt we're only wasting time on it because Loki sought to use an example that I'd relate to in the way he wanted/expected. But it's a valid comparison and I hate to see you ruin that for the express purpose of condemning, for the thousandth time, people you dislike. We get it, traders suck. Let's not get all Cain-j00y about it.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  22. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    As a med-student I'm also interested in poop but that doesn't mean my every conversation has to be about poop. As a Bengal, I'm interested in Bangladesh, but most of my conversations are not about Bangladesh. As a geek, I'm very interested in Android, yet only a few of my threads are about Android. My underpants thread was directed at you more than at anyone else: just because you can find some justification for saying that something is connected to something else doesn't mean that the two are connected in so meaningful a sense as to warrant action (eg. an investment in terms of time, attention, money, etc).

    Please try to understand this and in the future please try to leave room in a discussion for what people are saying as opposed to forcing their posts to fit into what you think they should be saying, or what you want them to say, or what you thought they said.
    Believe me, I do try. Just not very successfully, apparently.

    The financial industry is comparable in several ways to the medical industry. Why is that so surprising and so impossible to accept? Are the players in the medical industry immune to the incentives and biases that beset those in the financial industry? Is medicine free of financial concerns? Is the challenge of planning and forecasting and analysing risk not relevant to a healthcare system?
    Only for those that believe medicine is an extension of the Financial Industry. ie, just another "market sector" to gain profits.

    The comparison isn't essential to the discussion, and no doubt we're only wasting time on it because Loki sought to use an example that I'd relate to in the way he wanted/expected. But it's a valid comparison and I hate to see you ruin that for the express purpose of condemning, for the thousandth time, people you dislike. We get it, traders suck. Let's not get all Cain-j00y about it.
    I dislike certain groups profiteering from public services that I view as basic civil societal rights (public education, healthcare, police and fire protection, infrastructure) while our public legislators are deaf-dumb-mute. There's a mathematical and statistical limit in there, regardless of my posts that bother you so much.

    But I will admit and acknowledge that I've been bringing my own POV into these discussions (when it's probably not welcomed for mentioning MONEY or INVESTMENTS at every turn). I will exit this thread by asking every reader to evaluate their OWN statistical limits. Whether it's the cost of their college loans compared to their college degree securing future employment value; costs of health insurance compared to their actual health care value and access; costs of home ownership compared to the mortgages banks were willing to sell for their own profit.

    All these things were based on mathematical formulae and statistics. When those models failed....well into the Fourth Quadrant.....the actuaries, statisticians, math geeks, and financial traders didn't lose one damn dime. Who lost? Pensioners, retail investors, savers, and young people.

  23. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    Well that's a good question. Maybe they could use some of the great insight Dread alluded to earlier? Maybe they could make their decisions based on awareness of the limitations of the market and those who're involved in it? I realise financial people, like all other slaves, need some way to generate busywork and thus $$$ but is that a legitimate interest to defend?
    Are you serious? Do you realize how many decisions they must make each minute, let alone each day? And do you really think arbitrary human judgment is going to produce any better results? Not only would it take place under extreme time constraints, but it also would depend on the time of the day the judgment is being made, the person making the judgment, etc. You're going to have no uniformity at all within a firm, which precludes it from having any strategy. You're asking people to go back to the Dark Ages. I really don't think you understand how bureaucracy or large organizations work. Nor do you understand the purpose of statistical models. I'm willing to bet that even individuals here who are heavily involved in the stock market have their own statistical models which help them choose which companies to invest in.

    This lesson applies to finance as well as to medicine the tools and their users are inherently limited in both arenas of human activity of course. Inadvertent misuse isn't exactly rare. And even with apparently proper use of our best tools you have to weigh harms and benefits. Not doing anything but watching is often the best thing we can do.
    You're not asking people to be more careful; you're asking them to throw the tools out the window and return to the use of leaches.

    You do know that we can't reliably win over every medical problem, right? Even if we do everything "right" and "by the book" we often end up losing. Is it because we're doing the wrong things? Sure, by definition it must be so. Does that mean that there's always something right that we could do in order to win, every single time? Of course not.
    Does that mean if someone has an illness that has no known cure, you should just tell the person to go home and die?
    Hope is the denial of reality

  24. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Are you serious? Do you realize how many decisions they must make each minute, let alone each day? And do you really think arbitrary human judgment is going to produce any better results? Not only would it take place under extreme time constraints, but it also would depend on the time of the day the judgment is being made, the person making the judgment, etc. You're going to have no uniformity at all within a firm, which precludes it from having any strategy. You're asking people to go back to the Dark Ages. I really don't think you understand how bureaucracy or large organizations work. Nor do you understand the purpose of statistical models. I'm willing to bet that even individuals here who are heavily involved in the stock market have their own statistical models which help them choose which companies to invest in.
    Statistical models are used for many purposes, you're making a mistake if you assume that they have one ideal purpose, that they are only being used for that purpose, that they're being used appropriately and that they're having the right influence on decisions.

    Maybe, for their own good, most people should strive to minimise the number of decisions they "have to" make each minute and to increase their margins juuuust a leeeetle beeet. You're right, my knowledge of the workings of bureaucracies and large organisations is limited. The consensus here on the forums seems to be that they're irreparably borked and therefore suck

    But I suggest you re-read what I wrote because you're ranting against a phantom poster who wants to get rid of statistics completely. I realise it's easier for you to deal with extremes and caricatures but it's not doing either of us any good in this discussion. It's actually kind of rude.

    You're not asking people to be more careful; you're asking them to throw the tools out the window and return to the use of leaches.
    Are you serious? Where have I done this? Please show me.

    Does that mean if someone has an illness that has no known cure, you should just tell the person to go home and die?
    Frequently you have to make a formal decision to focus on palliation rather than on cure. Didn't you know that? Of course, in the real world you can tell people to "go home and die" (or "stay here and die") nicely and you can help them die it in a better, kinder way. Not understanding the limits of medicine leads to overuse (or misuse) of diagnostic procedures and of "treatments".
    Last edited by Aimless; 10-26-2011 at 02:13 PM.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  25. #55
    While you're at it don't forget to point out where I've said that arbitrary human judgement is good or even preferable to anything else.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  26. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    As a Wall Street Hotshot, how do you (the WSH) justify and encourage the kind of behaviour you engaged in that led to the banking crisis? How do you end up thinking it's a good idea to be so ridiculously overleveraged on overvalued and extremely risky assets, and how do you manage to get those risky assets rated AAA? How do you manage to get banks, traders, investors, ratings agencies and regulatory agencies to ignore the problems?

    Do you think statistics-based models and assumptions may factor into that in some way?

    If yes then do you think maybe you can get your feelings under some control and just concede that this Marxist Animal Liberators stuff is irrelevant?

    Indeed lots of people saw problems with the situation, but many more (most?) didn't, and despite the apparently obvious problems you ended up with a totally FUBARed situation. Clearly there's a disconnect between what's known or knowable and what you get in reality from financial experts.
    Since when have I said I work on Wall Street?

    Calling banks overleveraged contains some element of hindsight. As Loki pointed out, statistics (and mathematical models in general) depend on variables and constants. No model is perfect. Many are far from perfect. But your mention of AAA securities is important, because it illustrates a particular constant which was heavily manipulated by the government and Wall Street. That "constant" was fundamentally flawed and undermined almost every model out there.

  27. #57
    http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes...of-experts/?hp

    Speaking of the problem with statistics: the author correctly points out that analysis based on non-statistical data is far more flawed than one based on statistics. Common wisdom frequently is wrong. A statistical model might somewhat underestimate rare events, but "experts" underestimate those same events by many orders of magnitude. For a recent example, statistical studies on civil war suggested that a country like Egypt had at least a moderate chance of a major conflict. Meanwhile, there were few if any Egypt specialists who thought the event had any real possibility. The human mind isn't great at grasping probabilities, particularly really low ones. Something that has a 1% chance of happening might be thought of as inconceivable to your typical analyst, but given 41 observations, there's over a 50% chance that the event will occur in at least one of them.

    The solution to bad stats is better data, better theory, and better testing of theory; it's not the reliance on "experts" or "analysts" who are far more prone to misperception, confirmation bias, and many other human flaws than is a statistical model.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  28. #58
    It's really hard to take this guy seriously when he's so prone to flatulent grandstanding. I suppose any large firm that ever paid any kind of commission or bonus (like an automotive company) should have its salaries strictly regulated by the government. What he's proposing is basically socialism.

    November 7, 2011
    End Bonuses for Bankers
    By NASSIM NICHOLAS TALEB

    I HAVE a solution for the problem of bankers who take risks that threaten the general public: Eliminate bonuses.

    More than three years since the global financial crisis started, financial institutions are still blowing themselves up. The latest, MF Global, filed for bankruptcy protection last week after its chief executive, Jon S. Corzine, made risky investments in European bonds. So far, lenders and shareholders have been paying the price, not taxpayers. But it is only a matter of time before private risk-taking leads to another giant bailout like the ones the United States was forced to provide in 2008.

    The promise of “no more bailouts,” enshrined in last year’s Wall Street reform law, is just that — a promise. The financiers (and their lawyers) will always stay one step ahead of the regulators. No one really knows what will happen the next time a giant bank goes bust because of its misunderstanding of risk.

    Instead, it’s time for a fundamental reform: Any person who works for a company that, regardless of its current financial health, would require a taxpayer-financed bailout if it failed should not get a bonus, ever. In fact, all pay at systemically important financial institutions — big banks, but also some insurance companies and even huge hedge funds — should be strictly regulated.

    Critics like the Occupy Wall Street demonstrators decry the bonus system for its lack of fairness and its contribution to widening inequality. But the greater problem is that it provides an incentive to take risks. The asymmetric nature of the bonus (an incentive for success without a corresponding disincentive for failure) causes hidden risks to accumulate in the financial system and become a catalyst for disaster. This violates the fundamental rules of capitalism; Adam Smith himself was wary of the effect of limiting liability, a bedrock principle of the modern corporation.

    Bonuses are particularly dangerous because they invite bankers to game the system by hiding the risks of rare and hard-to-predict but consequential blow-ups, which I have called “black swan” events. The meltdown in the United States subprime mortgage market, which set off the global financial crisis, is only the latest example of such disasters.

    Consider that we trust military and homeland security personnel with our lives, yet we don’t give them lavish bonuses. They get promotions and the honor of a job well done if they succeed, and the severe disincentive of shame if they fail. For bankers, it is the opposite: a bonus if they make short-term profits and a bailout if they go bust. The question of talent is a red herring: Having worked with both groups, I can tell you that military and security people are not only more careful about safety, but also have far greater technical skill, than bankers.

    The ancients were fully aware of this upside-without-downside asymmetry, and they built simple rules in response. Nearly 4,000 years ago, Hammurabi’s code specified this: “If a builder builds a house for a man and does not make its construction firm, and the house which he has built collapses and causes the death of the owner of the house, that builder shall be put to death.”

    This was simply the best risk-management rule ever. The Babylonians understood that the builder will always know more about the risks than the client, and can hide fragilities and improve his profitability by cutting corners — in, say, the foundation. The builder can also fool the inspector; the person hiding risk has a large informational advantage over the one who has to find it.

    Banning bonuses addresses the principal-agent problem in economics: the separation between an agent’s interests and those of the client, or principal, he is supposed to represent. The potency of my solution lies in the idea that people do not consciously wish to harm themselves; I feel much safer on a plane because the pilot, and not a drone, is at the controls. Similarly, cooks should taste their own cooking; engineers should stand under the bridges they have designed when the bridges are tested; the captain should be the last to leave the ship. The Romans even figured out how to deter cowardice that causes the death of others with the technique called decimation: If a legion lost a battle and there was suspicion of cowardice, 10 percent of the soldiers and commanders — usually chosen at random — were put to death.

    No such pain faces bailed-out, bonus-taking bankers. The period from 2000 to 2008 saw a very large accumulation of hidden exposures in the financial system. And yet the year 2010 brought the largest bank compensation in history. It has become clear that merely “clawing back” past bonuses after the fact is not enough. Supervision, regulation and other forms of monitoring are necessary, but insufficient — consider that the Federal Reserve insisted, as late as 2007, that the rapidly escalating subprime mortgage crisis was likely to be “contained.”

    What would banking look like if bonuses were eliminated? It would not be too different from what it was like when I was a bank intern in the 1980s, before the wave of deregulation that culminated in the 1999 repeal of the Glass-Steagall Act, the Depression-era law that had separated investment and commercial banking. Before then, bankers and lenders were boring “lifers.” Banking was bland and predictable; the chairman’s income was less than that of today’s junior trader. Investment banks, which paid bonuses and weren’t allowed to lend, were partnerships with skin in the game, not gamblers playing with other people’s money.

    Hedge funds, which are loosely regulated, could take on some of the risks that banks would shed under my proposal. While we tend to hear about the successful ones, the great majority fail and their failures rarely make the front page. The principal-agent problem they have isn’t a problem for taxpayers: Typically their investors manage the governance of hedge funds by ensuring that the manager is hurt more than any of his investors in the event of a blowup.

    I believe that “less is more” — simple heuristics are necessary for complex problems. So instead of thousands of pages of regulation, we should enforce a basic principle: Bonuses and bailouts should never mix.

    Nassim Nicholas Taleb, a professor of risk engineering at New York University Polytechnic Institute, is the author of “The Black Swan: The Impact of the Highly Improbable.” He is a hedge fund investor and a former Wall Street trader.


    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/08/op...r-bankers.html

  29. #59
    That's just idiotic.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  30. #60
    Is it bonuses that are so bad, or providing accountability for failure that needs to be addressed. To the latter I would agree with, and in fact think ending unhealhy business-gov relationships will help us do it. People need to feel the pain of their mistakes so there is no moral hazard issue, even if we spare the economy pain by propping up the company, we can still make the people who made the mistakes feel the pain. fired from their jobs, even having to pay money of some sort possibly (depending on circumstance).
    Last edited by Lebanese Dragon; 11-09-2011 at 04:33 AM.

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