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Thread: Push for ‘Personhood’ Amendment Represents New Tack in Abortion Fight

  1. #31
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    Who said anything about dodging science? Most respectable scientists wouldn't make a determination on this and call the issue resolved.
    Aha. "Most respectable scientists won't do that".

    How do you know? Did you actually ask those respectable scientists? Oh, I understand. They're only "respectable" in your eyes if they don't make such a determination.
    When the stars threw down their spears
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  2. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    Who said anything about dodging science? Most respectable scientists wouldn't make a determination on this and call the issue resolved.

    People will inevitably take whatever information biologists can find on development and ultimately make an ethical decision. Is X of neural activity enough to constitute "life"? Does the presence of Y or Z constitute "life"?

    But biology can only go so far. If things were any more clear cut, there wouldn't be a debate about this. Even if you're just looking at the science and not a religious person, the actual determination of where life begins basically boils-down to a moral and ethical decision based on the facts you've observed (with some subjectivity in the mix).
    Do you believe in a soul?
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  3. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by CitizenCain View Post
    The suggestion that science can answer a question that is fundamentally non-scientific is retarded, crazy and irrational.

    So, congrats on being crazier, dumber and more irrational than the religious fundies you think you're mocking. Quite a feat; your parents must be very proud.
    <Mod hat> Congrats on being more hostile that the Ominous you think you're mocking. Over the top and unnecessary.</mod hat>

    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    Aha. "Most respectable scientists won't do that".

    How do you know? Did you actually ask those respectable scientists? Oh, I understand. They're only "respectable" in your eyes if they don't make such a determination.
    Yes, I think it's not respectable for scientists to overreach and claim to "decide" issues of enormous moral and ethical importance. Individual scientists are always welcome to come to personal decisions based on their knowledge. And so are individual people based on the science that's available.

    But this is an area where there is no scientific consensus.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    Do you believe in a soul?
    I don't know. Why? Do you?

  4. #34
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Still, Dread, you're making a claim here which simply is not true. You don't know what "most respectable" scientists would do - and if they do not do something to yopur own personal liking, you dismiss their opinion because suddenly they're not respectable anymore and thus not worthy to be heard.

    It's a pretty big fallacy you're perpetrating here - "confirmation bias" is the correct term, I think. And it's also logically faulty.

    You're saying yourself that it's an issue of "enormous moral importance". Which, in this case, can't be decided upon on an individual basis for obvious reasons - because the decision on an individual basis is the actual issue.

    Which means we have to have a broad and sweeping decision. Which then means that people will have to contribute their views and opinions publically. Which allows you to dismiss what you don't like because "respectable" persons don't talk publically or what?

    It's idiotic to throw this back to the individual level because that's exactly what the issue is about, for chrissakes!
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  5. #35
    I'm not sure you've been following this discussion.

    I believe this can and should be explored on an individual basis, and people should have the right to make life-changing decisions for themselves based on their individual determinations.

    Back when I was going to be a doctor, I loved classes where professors would pause to highlight the complexity of this question. But, once again, there is no strict, doctrinare biological consensus on the question of "when life begins" or even "what is life." Any given biologist may have their own ideas on the matter, but most people who understand even a bit of biology know these questions can be looked at in a variety of ways.

    Part of this lack of consensus is why this is an ugly political issue. My view is people should be able to end their pregnancies at most points of the pregnancy, and certainly after conception. But not everyone shares my view, which is why our state of Mississippi is going through this very divisive political referendum.

  6. #36
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Ah, great. So, you are sitting back and saying nothing and because of that, nobody else should say anything publically.

    And no, Dread, we have a pretty good idea where life ends. So, why exactly is it so astounding to take that definition of death and apply it to a definition of the beginning of life?

    Is that forbidden just because you say so or because there's no consensus? How the hell is there supposed a consensus to come about if anyone who talks about that stuff automagically loses their respectability? Do you think that a consensus appears from thin air? No one talks about stuff and suddenly, poof, a wild consensus appears or what?

    How is that magical consensus supposed to come about in your eyes? Good grief. Do you know how illogical and inconsistent that view of yours is?
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  7. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    I don't know. Why? Do you?
    If you don't believe in a soul then presumably you can accept that any discussion of human consciousness necessarily involves discussion of facts about the human brain just as any serious discussion of human identity necessarily involves discussion of facts about genes. If you want to discuss personhood you can't get out of discussing brains and genes.

    This initiative strives to reinstate the view that the brain and consciousness are separate, in effect legislating a belief in the soul. If it didn't then it wouldn't seek to grant personhood and associated rights to something that doesn't have a working brain (they say embryos but they may as well have said brain-dead--ie. legally dead--persons). Alternatively it seeks to forward the notion that consciousness is not central to the concept of personhood, which leads to other problems. At the same time it uses as support the notion that human identity is grounded in human genes, but clearly that is also problematic unless you wish to grant personhood to severed limbs.

    I suppose you can start talking about dead/non-live persons vs. living persons.

    This is not a matter of ethics vs. science, it's a matter of science vs. religious belief. I'm not trying to trivialise the conflict. I just think it's wrong to force a nation to accept a shitty version of Pascal's wager.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  8. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    And no, Dread, we have a pretty good idea where life ends. So, why exactly is it so astounding to take that definition of death and apply it to a definition of the beginning of life?
    You are completely misunderstanding what I'm saying, but is this a serious assertion you're making? That, because we can define death, we can also define when life begins?

    I'd be interested for Wiggin to weigh in on this one, I suspect he has some views on this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    If you don't believe in a soul then presumably you can accept that any discussion of human consciousness necessarily involves discussion of facts about the human brain just as any serious discussion of human identity necessarily involves discussion of facts about genes. If you want to discuss personhood you can't get out of discussing brains and genes.

    This initiative strives to reinstate the view that the brain and consciousness are separate, in effect legislating a belief in the soul. If it didn't then it wouldn't seek to grant personhood and associated rights to something that doesn't have a working brain (they say embryos but they may as well have said brain-dead--ie. legally dead--persons). Alternatively it seeks to forward the notion that consciousness is not central to the concept of personhood, which leads to other problems. At the same time it uses as support the notion that human identity is grounded in human genes, but clearly that is also problematic unless you wish to grant personhood to severed limbs.

    I suppose you can start talking about dead/non-live persons vs. living persons.

    This is not a matter of ethics vs. science, it's a matter of science vs. religious belief. I'm not trying to trivialise the conflict. I just think it's wrong to force a nation to accept a shitty version of Pascal's wager.
    I'm going to re-state for maybe the fourth time that I don't agree with this initiative. Because I can just feel people beginning to look at me as if I support this ballot initiative.

    But you are correct: not everyone believes life depends on a certain level of brain function. And that's not even when talking about the just-conceived. Societies and individuals spend enormous amounts of money to care for those who are believed to be "brain dead". We spend enormous amounts of money to care for prematurely-born babies with totally unclear brain functioning.

    So I reject the idea that this debate is rooted merely in a religious-nutball view of conception. It's just a corner of a very large and complex debate.

  9. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    I'm going to re-state for maybe the fourth time that I don't agree with this initiative. Because I can just feel people beginning to look at me as if I support this ballot initiative.
    I am well aware of this

    But you are correct: not everyone believes life depends on a certain level of brain function. And that's not even when talking about the just-conceived. Societies and individuals spend enormous amounts of money to care for those who are believed to be "brain dead". We spend enormous amounts of money to care for prematurely-born babies with totally unclear brain functioning.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniform...n_of_Death_Act

    People do all sorts of things, but you're not generally forced by law to keep a totally brain-dead person on life-support on the basis of his personhood (a personhood that is more established than that of an embryo).

    To be clear, this is not about "life" depending on "a certain level of brain function". This is about "personhood" not depending on any brain function. The comparison is inappropriate.

    So I reject the idea that this debate is rooted merely in a religious-nutball view of conception. It's just a corner of a very large and complex debate.
    I didn't say anything about nutballs, I'm just saying that the present argument is based almost entirely on religious beliefs about what constitutes a person. Apparently science loses out because religion has something to say and science (supposedly) does not.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  10. #40
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    You are completely misunderstanding what I'm saying, but is this a serious assertion you're making? That, because we can define death, we can also define when life begins?
    Fascinating. First you lambasted me for not reading the thread and then it turns out that you haven't actually read some important parts of the thread yourself. Good evening, I am Dread and I set a lot of double standards.

    And, uh, Dread, this may be news to you but prematurely-born babies with "unclear brain functioning" are unheard of. Either the EEG shows some activity or it doesn't. And, surprise, if it doesn't the fetus won't survive. You're mixing two concepts here: Brain damage and brain function. It's the latter we're talking about here which is a binary condition.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    Apparently science loses out because religion has something to say and science (supposedly) does not.
    That's because people like Dread think that because there's no consensus, public discussion is not allowed. Because public discussion is only done by unrespectable people.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  11. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    You are completely misunderstanding what I'm saying, but is this a serious assertion you're making? That, because we can define death, we can also define when life begins?
    Please see Ziggy's post about this argument


    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    That's because people like Dread think that because there's no consensus, public discussion is not allowed. Because public discussion is only done by unrespectable people.
    He doesn't actually think this. He said that

    Yes, I think it's not respectable for scientists to overreach and claim to "decide" issues of enormous moral and ethical importance.
    The key words are "overreach" and "decide".
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  12. #42
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    I don't quite see why one should not be allowed to openly state that after careful deliberation one has decided to side with a particular argument, nor why this should be overreaching.

    Unless someone subscribes to the notion that everyones' decisions are equally valid, even if someone doesn't know anything about the issue and has only thought about it for 5 seconds tops.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  13. #43
    http://www.newyorker.com/
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    People do all sorts of things, but you're not generally forced by law to keep a totally brain-dead person on life-support on the basis of his personhood (a personhood that is more established than that of an embryo).

    To be clear, this is not about "life" depending on "a certain level of brain function". This is about "personhood" not depending on any brain function. The comparison is inappropriate.

    I didn't say anything about nutballs, I'm just saying that the present argument is based almost entirely on religious beliefs about what constitutes a person. Apparently science loses out because religion has something to say and science (supposedly) does not.
    Over here, we've had some semi-recent controversy defining brain-dead.

    But more seriously, I saw Ziggy's post and I disagreed with the rationale then. I just was surprised that Khend was taking the same tack, because the question of what defines life is much more complex than coming to a conclusion about brain activity. After all, neurological research is trending towards the idea that most of our personality is sub-conscious. If that's the case, is it really hard for some to reduce the argument further and say that consciousness isn't necessary to define life?

    These aren't ideas that I necessarily agree with, I'm just bringing it up to demonstrate the complexity of taking a strictly brain/consciousness-driven approach.

    While people may have religious motivations, I wouldn't dismiss being anti-abortion as being strictly religious. Some may very seriously take a more chemical and biological approach, which could argue that eukaryotic cell multiplication constitutes the start of human "life". And, further, that the process of starting life leads to an inevitable path to "personhood" that shouldn't be disrupted through artificial means.


    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    Fascinating. First you lambasted me for not reading the thread and then it turns out that you haven't actually read some important parts of the thread yourself. Good evening, I am Dread and I set a lot of double standards.

    And, uh, Dread, this may be news to you but prematurely-born babies with "unclear brain functioning" are unheard of. Either the EEG shows some activity or it doesn't. And, surprise, if it doesn't the fetus won't survive. You're mixing two concepts here: Brain damage and brain function. It's the latter we're talking about here which is a binary condition.


    That's because people like Dread think that because there's no consensus, public discussion is not allowed. Because public discussion is only done by unrespectable people.
    I critiqued you for not understanding my position. I wasn't talking about your reading comprehension. Nor was I saying that people shouldn't discuss this. Isn't that what we're doing? Can you please be a bit less hostile and defensive?

    However I think you are really oversimplifying the impact of premature birth. Merely being able to get a prematurely born child to survive can still lead to a lifetime of severe brain and physical impairment.

    Below is a long read, but a worthwhile recent article from a left-wing publication which highlights the uncertainties involved with premature birth. I actually see all of this uncertainty as a reason to permit abortion, but that's just me.

    MEDICAL DISPATCH

    A Child in Time

    New frontiers in treating premature babies.
    by Jerome Groopman
    OCTOBER 24, 2011


    The entryway to the neonatal intensive-care unit in my hospital, Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center, in Boston, is lined with photographs of children who were born prematurely. Jeremiah, delivered at twenty-four weeks, sixteen weeks early, weighed one pound six ounces. In the picture, he’s a robust teen-ager, seated at a piano. Nearby is a photo of Caroline, a blond ten-year-old in a blue uniform, holding a lacrosse stick. She was born at twenty-five weeks, when her mother’s placenta abruptly tore apart. Caroline has cerebral palsy, and wears an ankle-and-foot brace on her right leg, but she “is able to dance, swim, ride a two-wheel bike, play lacrosse,” and “is very social,” according to the caption below the photo. Across the hall is a photograph of Jackie, who’s on a swing. Her mother’s placenta became infected at twenty-four weeks, and she was delivered “blue,” with collapsed lungs. Jackie was not expected to live through the first twenty-four hours. She’s now eight years old, with a lingering lung problem, but her mother describes her as “a very beautiful girl with lots of energy. Her favorite food is everything.” A few steps away, there is a drawing of a tree with leaves made of paper. On each leaf is the name of an infant who did not survive.

    There are forty-eight beds in the NICU, and, on the spring day I visited with Dr. Camilia Martin, most of them were occupied. Martin is a senior neonatologist who co-wrote a textbook primer on NICU treatments, called “Neonatology Review.” She told me that extremely premature infants, defined as those born before twenty-eight weeks of pregnancy, are frequently delivered by Cesarean section. At birth, their eyelids are often fused, and their ears are flat. At my hospital, four medical professionals receive each baby: an attending neonatologist, a fellow in training, a respiratory therapist, and a specialized nurse. Amniotic fluid and debris are suctioned from the baby’s mouth, before he or she is wrapped in warm dry towels and placed on a heated mattress. A continuous positive airway pressure, or CPAP, mask is fitted over the nose and mouth. For many infants, the oxygen delivered by the mask is not adequate, so a tube is inserted into the trachea. Minutes after birth, replacement surfactant, a mixture of fats and proteins that looks like skim milk, is percolated into the baby’s lungs. The surfactant preparation, which comes from the lungs of cows or pigs, keeps the air sacs in the lungs open. When the doctors cut the umbilical cord, they thread a thin catheter, with a bore of about one millimetre, into the umbilical vein; fluids and medications flow through it to the newborn. Another fine catheter is inserted into the umbilical artery to monitor blood pressure and levels of oxygen and carbon dioxide.

    [Continues beyond spoiler tag]
    Spoiler:

    After some twenty minutes, the infant is moved to the NICU and placed in an incubator; the ones at my hospital are the Giraffe brand, which is equipped with long-necked lamps and heating elements positioned at the top of a closed plastic dome. “These babies are not prepared to enter the world,” Martin said. “This technology aims to substitute for the loss of time within the mother. Their skin is not developed. You see it’s translucent, without any fat underneath.” Each baby had a unique sheen, a network of blood vessels starkly visible beneath the surface. “They lose a great deal of body heat and water through their skin.” Inside the Giraffe, temperature and humidity are regulated to prevent hypothermia and dehydration.

    “As a rule, premature babies need to stay in the NICU at least until what would be their normal gestational age,” which is about forty weeks, Martin said. “And for the very early ones, born at twenty-four weeks, we add another two to four weeks.” Many of the babies we saw would remain in the complex support system of the NICU for between four and five months. There are similar units in most major cities and population centers; premature babies born in rural hospitals are quickly transferred. In the past few decades, the hopes and expectations of parents have been boosted by a growing number of specialized machines, procedures, and medications developed for premature infants. Beneath the picture of Caroline, the lacrosse player, is a summary of her first months of life: unable to breathe on her own, she was placed on a mechanical ventilator; an open channel between her aorta and the artery to her lungs necessitated surgery; bacteria infected her bones; fluid accumulated around her heart and prevented blood from circulating; a retinal condition that often causes blindness required laser treatment. Despite Caroline’s perilous state, her parents wrote below her photograph, “We had all the confidence in the world.”

    On August 7, 1963, when a second son was born to President and Mrs. Kennedy at Otis Air Force Base, on Cape Cod, expectations for premature babies were limited. The boy was delivered five and a half weeks early, by Cesarean section, and weighed four pounds ten and a half ounces. Shortly after birth, he was baptized Patrick Bouvier Kennedy. The infant had difficulty breathing and was rushed by ambulance to Children’s Hospital Medical Center, in Boston. He was put in a hyperbaric chamber, described by the Times as “one of the newest interests of medical researchers. . . . In a chamber, air under pressure allows the patient to breathe high pressure oxygen.” The President flew from Washington to the hospital. But “the battle for the Kennedy baby was lost, only because medical science has not yet advanced far enough to accomplish as quickly as necessary what the body can do by itself in its own time.” Baby Patrick died, thirty-nine hours and twelve minutes after his birth. The Times later reported, “The attending physicians certified to a diagnosis of prematurity and hyaline membrane disease . . . a lung disorder that takes the lives of about half of the 50,000 babies who contract it every year.” The newspaper quoted a pediatrician who explained that the airways of such infants are coated with a thick mucous substance, “hyaline . . . that interferes with oxygen getting in the . . . lungs.” The disorder, it said, “is still in many respects a scientific and therapeutic enigma.”

    “We hardly worry anymore about a baby like the Kennedy infant,” Martin told me. “Survival at thirty-two weeks’ gestational age is nearly a hundred per cent.” That success is, in part, due to a discovery that was made four years before Patrick Bouvier Kennedy’s birth. A young pediatrician, Mary Ellen Avery, working at the Harvard School of Public Health, found that such premature infants lacked surfactant, causing the air sacs in their lungs to collapse. Her research was largely ignored until 1980, when pediatricians in Japan gave surfactant to ten premature babies ranging between twenty-eight and thirty-three weeks. There was dramatic improvement in their chest X-rays, with nearly complete clearing of the hyaline-membrane disease just hours later; eight of the ten infants survived. But premature infants faced other challenges: there was no reliable way to regulate their body temperature or prevent fluid loss, administer intravenous nutrition or medications, treat inflamed bowels and eyes, or surgically repair blood vessels. Until recently, neonatal care involved little more than warm blankets and supplemental oxygen.

    Today, the technologies of the NICU save increasing numbers of infants whose lungs, brain, gastrointestinal tract, skin, and immune system are not ready for life outside the womb. Still, babies die despite months of intensive care. And each treatment brings its own set of risks; many children who survive have neurological problems, like cerebral palsy, or severe cognitive limitations. They can be blind, deaf, or mentally retarded, or suffer with chronic lung disease. How do families and medical professionals make the agonizing decision whether to treat a premature infant at delivery and through the months in the NICU?

    Worldwide, about thirteen million babies a year, nearly ten per cent of all newborns, are delivered prematurely. In the United States, the rate is higher: 12.3 per cent. Premature birth has risen by thirty-six per cent in the past quarter century, in part because of an increase in older mothers and the use of assisted reproduction, such as in-vitro fertilization, which increases the incidence of twins, triplets, and higher-order multiple births. In December, 2010, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention noted that the birth rate for women between the ages of forty and forty-four has reached the highest level reported in more than forty years. The twinning rate rose seventy per cent between 1980 and 2004, and is now 32.6 per thousand births, the highest on record; the rate of triplets or other multiple births climbed more than four hundred per cent from 1980 through 1998. African-American babies are one and a half times as likely as whites to be premature, which is one reason that infant mortality is so much higher among blacks than whites. Among all races, in the U.S., more than half a million infants are born prematurely every year, and another 1.1 million are “early term,” born between thirty-seven and thirty-eight weeks.

    The reasons for premature birth are not well understood. Sometimes the mother develops hypertension, often called preeclampsia, and blood flow to the placenta is disrupted. In other instances, the placenta fails to grow, or it abruptly detaches, as was the case with Caroline. Other women have “cervical incompetency”—the cervix dilates early and labor begins. Infections, particularly of the mother’s genito-urinary tract, can induce pre-term labor as well. There are also cases in which there is no apparent precipitant.

    For many years, neonatologists relied largely on gestational age in deciding whether to administer intensive care or to “redirect,” which means to restrict care to palliative measures. “This was the prevailing practice, broadly held at many centers around the country,” Dr. Michael O’Shea, a neonatologist at Wake Forest, who has conducted clinical studies evaluating NICU treatments, told me. Designating an age cutoff was advocated in other countries as well. In 2001, the British Medical Journal reported that the University Medical Centre in Leiden, Netherlands, the nation’s leading facility for premature infants, “has decided in principle to stop the active intensive treatment of babies born before 25 weeks gestation because of research showing poor prognosis.” Infants born earlier would be given “vigorous support” only if the parents requested it. In 2007, as techniques improved, the Dutch issued a new guideline that lowered the cutoff from twenty-five weeks to twenty-four. The appeal of a strict age-based recommendation is clear. Dr. Willem Fetter, the chairman of the Association of Paediatrics in the Netherlands, said that the new guideline offered “uniformity in our approach.” Dr. Jon Tyson, of the University of Texas at Houston, concurred. “It involves a mental defense mechanism, where you believe you are making major decisions without error,” he told me.

    But such strictures can offer a misleading certainty when it comes to an infant’s chances of survival. In 2008, the National Institute of Child Health and Human Development Neonatal Research Network, led by Tyson, published a study, in the New England Journal of Medicine, of 4,446 premature infants born between twenty-two and twenty-five weeks and cared for in academic medical centers. The study looked at an infant’s likelihood of survival, as well as at the possibility of neurological or developmental impairment, evaluated at an age between eighteen and twenty-two months. Factors associated with a lower risk of death or disability include single rather than multiple birth, treatment of the mother with corticosteroids before delivery, being female, and higher weight. On the strength of this finding, the researchers created a Web-based algorithmic calculator, which allows a doctor to enter the premature infant’s characteristics and find its chances of death and disability.

    The algorithm showed neonatologists how uncertain outcomes can be for infants delivered between twenty-two and twenty-five weeks, which is currently the edge of efficacy for the NICU’s capabilities. Tyson also pointed out that, even with ultrasound images of the fetus, it can be difficult to precisely determine gestational age. Frequently, couples are off by a week or more when trying to remember the time of conception. The researchers concluded, “Our findings challenge the widespread use of gestational-age thresholds alone in deciding whether to administer intensive care to extremely premature infants.”

    On December 4, 2004, Anna Karas, a biochemist, and her husband, Nick, a physicist, arrived at the emergency department of Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center. (The family’s names have been changed.) Both in their mid-thirties, they had been trying for almost three years to have a child. After Anna’s most recent I.V.F. procedure, she had become pregnant with triplets. At week twenty, her cervix had begun to open; her obstetrician had stitched it closed and confined her to bed rest. But, two days after the twenty-fourth week, Anna’s water broke. She had a Cesarean section, and a little before midnight the three babies were delivered. Martin was the attending neonatologist on call, and told me their vital statistics. The first child, a girl, weighed six hundred and sixty-five grams (about a pound and a half), and had low Apgar scores, which measure infant health at one and five minutes after birth. A tube was inserted into her airway, and she was given surfactant and placed on a ventilator. Still, her carbon-dioxide levels climbed. She required a high-frequency oscillatory ventilation machine, which delivers up to nine hundred breaths every minute and sounds like the high-pitched knocking of a frenzied woodpecker; but even this was insufficient. Martin began to press oxygen into the baby using a hand bag, which is a bellows apparatus. “It has to be done gingerly, because if it is too forceful and you overextend the lungs you injure the infant with the first breaths,” she explained. The infant’s blood pressure fell precipitately, and saline, dopamine, and antibiotics were infused through a catheter in the umbilical vein.

    Eight hours after birth, the infant’s blood oxygen was still low, her carbon-dioxide levels were high, and her blood pressure was difficult to sustain near normal levels. “She is not responding, despite everything we are doing,” Martin told the parents.

    “We saw this as binary,” Nick said when we spoke about that night. “We didn’t want to be in the middle.” He and Anna felt that either the baby would survive with a reasonable chance of a good life or she should be allowed to die comfortably. Martin agreed.

    The baby was detached from the ventilator, the tube removed from her throat, the catheters taken out of her umbilical artery and vein. A nurse in the NICU swaddled the baby and handed her to Anna. The infant died in her arms.

    The second of the triplets was a boy, also weighing about a pound and a half. Like his sister, he was immediately intubated and placed on a ventilator, and then, as his blood pressure fell, he was given saline, dopamine, corticosteroids, antibiotics, and a blood transfusion. A chest X-ray showed pulmonary interstitial emphysema. Martin explained that the force of delivering oxygen into the lungs had caused his airway to rupture and coalesce, a sign of “how hard we were trying to get the lungs to work.” But his carbon dioxide continued to climb, as his oxygen fell. At 1:45 P.M., a little more than thirteen hours after delivery, the baby was detached from the ventilator, swaddled, and held by Anna and Nick before he died.

    The third infant, a boy, had severe lung disease. “After we intubated him and gave him surfactant, we just couldn’t sustain his blood oxygen and had to put him on H.F.O.V. as well,” Martin said. His chest X-ray soon showed emphysema. His blood pressure started to fall, and he was given infusions of saline.

    Nick told me that in the Greek Orthodox tradition babies are not typically named at birth. But, after their third infant survived the night, he and Anna gave him the name John.

    “John developed just about every complication of prematurity,” Martin told me. His lungs were difficult to aerate, even with the H.F.O.V. ventilator. Like Caroline, he was found to have an open channel between the aorta and the pulmonary artery. Large amounts of blood that should move out from the left side of the heart were going back into his lungs, threatening to drown him. When John was five days old, he was transferred to Children’s Hospital Boston, where he underwent surgery to close the channel. He returned to the NICU at Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center under Martin’s care; his blood pressure again fell to perilous levels, and he required infusions of dopamine. At day thirteen, an ultrasound of his head showed a hemorrhage adjacent to his cerebral ventricles, the cisterns in the brain where cerebral-spinal fluid flows. When he was a month old, he had another hemorrhage.

    Two weeks later, John was given a diagnosis of retinopathy of prematurity, which can result in permanent blindness. It occurs, in part, because the high concentrations of oxygen given to premature babies are toxic to the eyes. John received repeated laser treatments to cauterize his retina.

    Martin does not offer families the calculations from the Web algorithm, nor does she routinely consult them herself. “There are limitations of averages of data,” she explained. Referring to John, she said, “He is a good example of the uncertainty in neonatology, and why we prefer not to use the calculator when consulting with families.” Martin showed me how the algorithm would have applied to John. He had three negative prognostic factors: he was male, he was a triplet, and he received an incomplete course of antenatal corticosteroids before delivery. His chance of death was fifty-three per cent; of death or profound neurodevelopmental impairment seventy-one per cent; of death or moderate to severe impairment eighty-five per cent. “Every baby is unique, and every family is unique,” Martin said. “I value more the time necessary to discuss with the families various possibilities as best we know them.” Although the algorithm was designed to provide estimates, often it actually reinforces the uncertainty of outcomes.

    Not long after our visit to the NICU, Martin received a photograph of John. The photo shows a smiling first grader, now six and a half years old, who doesn’t need glasses. He spent more than five months in intensive care, and when he was discharged one of the doctors said to his parents, “It’s a miracle.” Nick told me, “We answered, ‘No. We knew he would make it.’ ”

    Dr. Stella Kourembanas, the chief of the Harvard Division of Newborn Medicine at Children’s Hospital Boston, whose research aims at developing novel treatments to improve lung function in premature infants, said, “You really don’t know what will happen until the baby comes out.” One of the drawbacks of the algorithm is that the prediction of cognitive and other neurodevelopmental abnormalities relies on testing at eighteen months. “Too often, we are focussed on indicators that are too early,” Kourembanas said. “The brain is very plastic; it changes with age, and this plasticity makes such predictive statements seem foolish.” Early testing can frighten parents by highlighting developmental limitations that later resolve. On the other hand, it can give false reassurance when a baby tests well at eighteen months and later develops A.D.H.D. or delayed language skills, which are the two most common late-onset effects of prematurity.

    Kourembanas’s concern about making decisions based on short-term complications in the NICU is supported by research. Dr. Saroj Saigal and colleagues, from McMaster University, in Hamilton, Ontario, published a follow-up study, in the Journal of the American Medical Association, on the self-reported quality of life of extremely low-birth-weight premature infants. Each had required prolonged periods of invasive and expensive technological neonatal care. A hundred and forty-one survivors born between 1977 and 1982 were compared with a hundred and forty-five healthy normal-gestation children, all between the ages of twelve and sixteen. Proxy responses were also obtained from the parents of nine severely impaired teen-agers in the premature group. Contrary to the prevailing perception, the adolescents born prematurely considered that the quality of their lives was quite high, despite the difficulties with vision, hearing, speech, and mobility reported by a quarter of the participants. As adolescents, seventy-one per cent of the premature infants rated their health-related quality of life at ninety-five per cent or better; the corresponding figure for control teen-agers was seventy-three per cent. Although for a minority of those in the premature group the quality of life was much lower, “for the overwhelming majority of the [premature group], it was difficult to distinguish them from [controls] delivered at term,” the study concluded. The positive perception persisted in a follow-up study, when the individuals in the study were young adults.

    The uncertain and agonizing decisions made in the NICU can cause a rift between parents and caregivers. The parents of Sidney Miller, who, in 1990, was delivered at twenty-three weeks in a hospital in Houston, filed a lawsuit in which they claimed that they had not wanted any “extraordinary, heroic” measures to be taken, because of the girl’s extreme prematurity. The neonatologist present at the delivery treated the infant with intubation, surfactant administration, and blood transfusions, after which she was transferred to the NICU. On the fourth day after birth, the baby had a major brain hemorrhage; ultimately, a shunt was put in to relieve the pressure. Sidney was discharged after six months, and her parents have cared for her at home ever since. She has had numerous operations to repair or replace the shunt in her brain, and she has cerebral palsy, is unable to talk or walk, and is blind and incontinent. During the trial, it was stated that with proper care Sidney Miller could live to the age of seventy.

    The parents sued the hospital and its corporate owners for treating the baby at birth without their consent. In January, 1998, a jury awarded the family thirty million dollars in compensatory damages and thirteen million dollars in punitive damages. But the Texas Supreme Court reversed the decision, and found in favor of the hospital, saying that the care was appropriate given the circumstances.

    After the reversal, Mark Miller wrote, “My daughter was not born disabled. The treatment protocol chosen and inflicted by the hospital, over our express objection, caused the damage, pain and disabilities Sidney endures today. The hospital’s decision . . . was little more than a rescue fantasy that doomed my daughter to the very conditions we attempted to protect her from. . . . Many parents, informed of the grueling, experimental and damaging measures involved in resuscitation of these near-viable fetal-infants, make the decision to provide supportive comfort care only, without invasive high-tech heroics. It is the very kind of humane care my wife and I would want for ourselves if we were in our daughter’s situation, facing excruciating treatments that would lead merely to a life of suffering.”

    “There are a lot of personal beliefs that each one of us brings to a specific case,” Kourembanas told me. “I’m very much in favor of what the parents want. I feel that they have the burden and joy and everything that comes with raising a child. Because I’ll take care of the baby in the NICU, but then I’m gone.”

    That approach, however, does not mean that the doctor exempts herself from the decision. “I make the recommendation, which in certain cases can be very painful,” Kourembanas said. “But I feel it’s far more cruel to say to the parents, ‘You have x per cent of a chance of this complication,’ and then look at them and say, as the doctor, ‘I’ll do whatever you want to do. Now, what do you want to do?’ How are that father and mother going to go to sleep at night if they think, I killed my baby.”

    A study of French and American NICUs supports the idea that the doctor’s recommendation whether to continue intensive care can relieve parents of guilt. The death of a baby is a devastating experience for any parent, but most of the French parents did not express the same level of grief and distress shown by their American counterparts. The explanation appeared to be that French parents whose children died had not personally made the choice not to pursue treatment. The study concluded, “American parents’ tendency to express more guilt and self-blame for the decision outcome suggested their greater perceived causality may have a role.”

    Kourembanas told me that senior neonatologists may disagree about intensive treatments. “We are dealing with life and death, and it’s not natural for a baby to die. A baby needs to live, needs to go to college, needs to have his or her own kids. Each one of us focusses on a different length of gestation. So I find that many of my colleagues would resuscitate a fetus at twenty-three weeks, if the fetus makes an effort to live.”

    But what constitutes an effort to live? “Babies are challenged with their first breath, so they will cry and try to breathe, they will gasp, and then some have a good heart rate,” Kourembanas said. “You may say that’s an effort to breathe. So some neonatologists say that any sign of life—crying, breathing, good heart rate—means the baby needs help. Others would say, ‘Well, it doesn’t really. It means that the baby is trying, but the baby is not able to sustain himself or herself, and technology can only delay death, or technology can actually result in injury long term.’ I don’t know what the right answer is, but, in the context of the data, each of us makes a determination based on our beliefs and experience.”

    Sheleagh Somers-Alsop, the senior clinical social worker in the NICU at my hospital, who works with families, physicians, and nurses, told me, “The pendulum swings back and forth.” The “old way,” with doctors delivering verdicts to families about stopping care, was authoritarian. But Somers-Alsop doesn’t believe that the parents should be expected to make the decision on their own. She recalled one mother of a severely ill child who wanted to know more about continuing intensive treatment. “I would feel like I was killing my baby,” the mother said. “As long as I see life in his eyes, there is a person there.” Somers-Alsop speaks with each family about their decisions, and tells them that, after they leave, “it’s O.K. that you revisit what happened and ask yourself, ‘Did I make the right decision?’ ” After a baby dies, she explained, it’s important for the parents to anticipate these kinds of doubts and concerns, and generally they come to terms. Yet, Somers-Alsop said, one mother whose child was severely disabled returned to the hospital over the years, ambivalent about the decision to sustain her infant, who now lived a life that she saw as one of relentless suffering, like that of Sidney Miller.

    Despite advances in the care of premature infants, there is still no consensus on how to optimally treat the underdeveloped lungs, brain, and bowel. “Everything is a balance, in terms of trying to improve the function of one system, like respiration, while not injuring another, like the brain,” Camilia Martin told me. Chronic lung disease, also known as bronchopulmonary dysplasia, occurs in about a quarter of all very low-birth-weight infants, and is believed to develop, in part, because of inflammation. For decades, premature infants were treated with high doses of corticosteroids to prevent inflammation in their lungs. Then a study indicated that, while babies who received steroids spent fewer days on mechanical ventilation and required less supplemental oxygen, which are clearly major benefits, they had a much higher chance of developing abnormalities in the brain. Hospitals no longer routinely use corticosteroids. “We only give steroids when our backs are to the wall,” Martin told me.

    Oxygen, long considered an unalloyed good for premature babies, has now been shown to increase the risk of severe eye damage. Research found that those who were given less oxygen were not as likely to suffer damage to the retina, with subsequent risk of blindness, but were more likely to die. As for nutrition, Martin, with Dr. Steven Freedman, a gastroenterologist, recently found that an imbalance of lipids in premature babies may increase their risk of lung, retinal, and immune disorders, and she is working to supply novel cocktails of key fats that more accurately reflect what is supplied by the pregnant mother.

    Like all advanced medical science, neonatal care is extremely expensive. An estimate by the Institute of Medicine puts health-care costs for pre-term infants at more than eighteen billion dollars a year, half of the total hospital charges for newborn care in the U.S. Dr. John Zupancic, a neonatologist at my hospital and an expert in health-care economics, provided a cost-benefit analysis for the Institute of Medicine of the National Academy of Sciences. The average cost for a healthy newborn delivered at full gestational age is between a thousand and three thousand dollars; for a premature baby, it is between a hundred thousand and a hundred and fifty thousand dollars. “But for some babies it can easily be over a million dollars,” Zupancic said. “People look at what we are doing in the NICU and often there is this reaction that it’s too expensive or not worth it.” But he claims that this interpretation is misleading. With successful care in the NICU, “I can save seventy years of potential ill health,” he said, and then the economic benefit is considerable. “So this idea of drawing a line on the basis of economics should not enter into the decision-making. The costs can be astronomical for babies who have severe long-term disabilities, but, in the aggregate, the NICU can be a good investment.”

    On a Sunday afternoon in March, I attended my hospital’s yearly NICU memorial service, which is held in a bright modern conference room. Nurses in scrubs sat with families that had lost infants. Parents and siblings attached paper leaves to a “memory tree” similar to the one at the entryway to the NICU. The service began with family members walking to the front of the room and placing a gladiolus, a yellow rose, or a sunflower in a vase. The parents of Nathan, who died the day after he was born, are musicians; they played the song “I Will Remember You.” The Reverend Katy Pakos Rimer, an interdenominational Protestant minister, invoked Jacob’s ladder between Heaven and earth, and said that these children “lived in the liminal space between life’s two great mysteries, birth and death.” Nancy Smith, a Jewish chaplain, recited the Kaddish, the memorial prayer for the dead. Then, as the name of each infant was read, the NICU nurses who had cared for the baby walked with the family members to the memorial tree and placed a small candle beneath it.

    Some weeks after the service, I spoke with Maria Morong, a schoolteacher whose son, Mario, died in the NICU in June, 2003. It had taken three years and intrauterine insemination for Maria, at the age of thirty-three, to become pregnant. She came home on a Friday afternoon complaining of low-back pain. The discomfort increased, and at midnight she went to the hospital. Her placenta had detached from her uterus. She underwent an emergency Cesarean section. Mario was twenty-four weeks and a day, and emerged “with no respiratory effort, no movement,” according to medical records. At one minute, he had an Apgar score of 1, which indicates that an infant is close to death.

    Maria told me, “The thing about the NICU is that nobody is actually prepared for it—at least, we definitely were not.” Her neonatologist told her and her husband, “I don’t know if he will make it through the first week.” They asked for a priest, who baptized and blessed him. Maria said, “I just couldn’t imagine he would die, even though people were very honest and up front about all the complications that could develop. I always thought he was going to be that kid, the one who would make it.”

    “We made it clear to the people in the NICU from early on we wanted to do everything possible,” Maria told me. “But we didn’t want him to suffer. I don’t know how you balance that.” Mario underwent an operation to close an open channel between the aorta and the pulmonary artery; he also received infusions of saline and dopamine, light therapy for elevated bilirubin, blood and platelet transfusions, and antibiotics for infection with Staphylococcus aureus. Then he hemorrhaged into the ventricle on the left side of the brain.

    At each point in his care, the doctors and nurses consulted with Maria and her husband. One day, the obstetrician who delivered Mario happened to be in the NICU. Maria recalled, “She told me she could not believe that Mario was still there, a full thirty days after his birth. She had a really frank discussion with us about what kind of global problems he might have. I think her intention was just to make sure that we were really well informed.” The obstetrician emphasized that Mario had hemorrhaged in his brain, that it was unclear how long he had been without oxygen during the difficult labor and delivery. “I went home that night and I was really upset. I called early in the morning, and his nurse said, ‘You know, he just doesn’t look right today.’ ” Maria and her husband rushed to the hospital. Mario was retaining fluid, because his kidneys had shut down. He had developed another infection. “I just knew that day I was going to lose him,” Maria said. “They really wanted me to hold him, so I was finally able to hold him.” She and her husband took pictures with Mario in their arms. As we talked, Maria began to cry. “The nurses were really great about helping us. They let us wash him and dress him. We got his footprints and handprints and a little bit of his strawberry-blond hair. And then we just had to leave. That was the worst part.” Mario was buried next to her father.

    Each year, Maria goes on a fund-raising walk with other parents who have lost a child. “I’m not really into who has the worst story, because there is always a worse story,” she told me. “But I’m so grateful for those days we had. I didn’t at the time realize how important that month was. But now I know. You don’t realize when you are pregnant how fast you start planning. You don’t realize all the dreams that you have for the child. Those days do mean something.” Two years later, Maria had a daughter, who is now seven years old, the result of “a pregnancy as normal as normal can be.” ♦

    http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2..._fact_groopman

  14. #44
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Again you're showing your ignorance. Terry Schiavo was not brain dead, she was in a persistent vegetative state which is something quite different. Because if she had been brain dead, there would have been NO contest at all before turning off life support.

    You're dishonest in your arguments. I'm hostile because you're constantly lying and twisting facts. Like that Terry Schiavo thing you just posted. Either you're lying or I have to assume that you're actually too dense to comprehend the difference between brain dead and brain damaged.

    And good grief, the article Ziggy posted and which I referenced made it clear what is NOT life. Again, that's different from what you constantly try to twist and abuse arguments into. What exactly is so difficult to understand about this argument: "Up till / After this point, this is not a aware human being."?
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  15. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    Again you're showing your ignorance. Terry Schiavo was not brain dead, she was in a persistent vegetative state which is something quite different. Because if she had been brain dead, there would have been NO contest at all before turning off life support.

    You're dishonest in your arguments. I'm hostile because you're constantly lying and twisting facts. Like that Terry Schiavo thing you just posted. Either you're lying or I have to assume that you're actually too dense to comprehend the difference between brain dead and brain damaged.

    And good grief, the article Ziggy posted and which I referenced made it clear what is NOT life. Again, that's different from what you constantly try to twist and abuse arguments into. What exactly is so difficult to understand about this argument: "Up till / After this point, this is not a aware human being."?
    What is the difference between brain dead and a persistent vegetative state, independent of available technology? Does anyone posting think personhood is or should be determinant on what the immediately available technological aides are? I can't help but get the impression here that people are refusing to acknowledge that we're addressing three or four very different frames of reference; legal, philosophical, and medical *and the medical may itself have an unacknowledged split between the science and the engineering*
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  16. #46
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  17. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    What is the difference between brain dead and a persistent vegetative state, independent of available technology? Does anyone posting think personhood is or should be determinant on what the immediately available technological aides are? I can't help but get the impression here that people are refusing to acknowledge that we're addressing three or four very different frames of reference; legal, philosophical, and medical *and the medical may itself have an unacknowledged split between the science and the engineering*
    Which specific technological / engineering aspects are you talking about here?

    Do you mean that these states can be prolonged? If so, they remain as defined, but will just last longer.

  18. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    http://www.newyorker.com/

    Over here, we've had some semi-recent controversy defining brain-dead.
    As you can see, that case was resolved, despite being in a grey area (PVS as opposed to brain dead).

    But more seriously, I saw Ziggy's post and I disagreed with the rationale then. I just was surprised that Khend was taking the same tack, because the question of what defines life is much more complex than coming to a conclusion about brain activity. After all, neurological research is trending towards the idea that most of our personality is sub-conscious. If that's the case, is it really hard for some to reduce the argument further and say that consciousness isn't necessary to define life?
    You keep talking about life when this is about personhood. If we were talking about life in general we may as well be talking about flowers. If we're talking about human life we may as well be talking about severed fingers and transplanted organs.

    Your objection based on neuroscience is not an objection at all! If neuroscience were approaching a consensus that we don't need the brain in order to have a consciousness (aware or unaware), then you would have a point. Instead neuroscience has never been further from that position. You won't find a single serious scientist that disagrees with the notion that the [human] brain is a necessary substrate for whatever you have in the way of personality, self-awareness, subconscious blah blah, cognition, etc. Without that substrate, you don't have any of those things. People like Alber think that we can be uploaded to computers, but that's not going to happen any time soon. If I remove your brain you won't have any subconscious personality. You would be gone. This would be true even if you'd been around and had experiences and done things and left an imprint on hundreds of people. It should be even more true for a brain-less embryo.

    These aren't ideas that I necessarily agree with, I'm just bringing it up to demonstrate the complexity of taking a strictly brain/consciousness-driven approach.
    And the solution to that complexity should not be to force simplicity by dismissing science and other sources of ambiguity.

    While people may have religious motivations, I wouldn't dismiss being anti-abortion as being strictly religious. Some may very seriously take a more chemical and biological approach, which could argue that eukaryotic cell multiplication constitutes the start of human "life". And, further, that the process of starting life leads to an inevitable path to "personhood" that shouldn't be disrupted through artificial means.
    Which is also essentially a religious position about wot men are or are not to meddle with. Let's face it, whatever it may become barring "artificial interruption", it's not a person at the time of conception. Barring artificial intervention, many people would die sooner rather than later. Conversely, even without artificial intervention, about half of all fertilised eggs never implant. If you want to talk about "inevitability", death is more inevitable than becoming a person, but we don't consider living persons to be dead.

    This line of reasoning is implicitly accepted even by those who restrict personhood to the fertilised embryo rather than to eg. the sperm and the egg. A sperm is not a person, an egg is not a person, although some still believe that using condoms is simply not okay based on arguments about inevitability and not meddling. I don't know what philosophers have to say about treating something as being what it might become, but my intuition is that it's an approach that undermines itself through the generation of absurdity.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  19. #49
    I look forward to the funny discussions about identical twins
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  20. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    Again you're showing your ignorance. Terry Schiavo was not brain dead, she was in a persistent vegetative state which is something quite different. Because if she had been brain dead, there would have been NO contest at all before turning off life support.

    You're dishonest in your arguments. I'm hostile because you're constantly lying and twisting facts. Like that Terry Schiavo thing you just posted. Either you're lying or I have to assume that you're actually too dense to comprehend the difference between brain dead and brain damaged.

    And good grief, the article Ziggy posted and which I referenced made it clear what is NOT life. Again, that's different from what you constantly try to twist and abuse arguments into. What exactly is so difficult to understand about this argument: "Up till / After this point, this is not a aware human being."?
    I'm lying and twisting facts? What on earth are you talking about? So conspiratorial, this one is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    As you can see, that case was resolved, despite being in a grey area (PVS as opposed to brain dead).

    You keep talking about life when this is about personhood. If we were talking about life in general we may as well be talking about flowers. If we're talking about human life we may as well be talking about severed fingers and transplanted organs.

    Your objection based on neuroscience is not an objection at all! If neuroscience were approaching a consensus that we don't need the brain in order to have a consciousness (aware or unaware), then you would have a point. Instead neuroscience has never been further from that position. You won't find a single serious scientist that disagrees with the notion that the [human] brain is a necessary substrate for whatever you have in the way of personality, self-awareness, subconscious blah blah, cognition, etc. Without that substrate, you don't have any of those things. People like Alber think that we can be uploaded to computers, but that's not going to happen any time soon. If I remove your brain you won't have any subconscious personality. You would be gone. This would be true even if you'd been around and had experiences and done things and left an imprint on hundreds of people. It should be even more true for a brain-less embryo.

    And the solution to that complexity should not be to force simplicity by dismissing science and other sources of ambiguity.

    Which is also essentially a religious position about wot men are or are not to meddle with. Let's face it, whatever it may become barring "artificial interruption", it's not a person at the time of conception. Barring artificial intervention, many people would die sooner rather than later. Conversely, even without artificial intervention, about half of all fertilised eggs never implant. If you want to talk about "inevitability", death is more inevitable than becoming a person, but we don't consider living persons to be dead.

    This line of reasoning is implicitly accepted even by those who restrict personhood to the fertilised embryo rather than to eg. the sperm and the egg. A sperm is not a person, an egg is not a person, although some still believe that using condoms is simply not okay based on arguments about inevitability and not meddling. I don't know what philosophers have to say about treating something as being what it might become, but my intuition is that it's an approach that undermines itself through the generation of absurdity.
    Actually, Schiavo's case was resolved with extreme difficulty. Our President signed a silly law to prolong her life. I believe it's the first time a law was specifically written to address one person's situation. And the issue went to our Supreme Court, who declined to hear it.

    And I mainly brought it up to demonstrate how crazed people can get about situations where they are concretely forced to define personhood. There were, after all, former medical professionals in our Congress.

    But I don't think you're looking at the neuroscience example from quite the right angle. Or at least you're improperly characterizing what my position is.

    Complexity does not mean one should dismiss science. That isn't what I'm saying at all. It means, as people who understand and respect the study of biology, we have to acknowledge that certain biological questions may have complex answers. Or may have no clear answers at all.

    But, ironically, I think you're actually trying to force simplicity. You're insisting that there can and must be a single, scientific answer to a question such as "when does life begin".

  21. #51
    No. When does personhood start. Very important distinction.

    May I also ask what the reason is for posting your article? What point are you making there?

    What, to you personally, so be as unscientific, irrational and subjective as you like, defines a person?
    Last edited by Ziggy Stardust; 10-31-2011 at 08:44 AM.
    I could have had class. I could have been a contender.
    I could have been somebody. Instead of a bum
    Which is what I am

    I aim at the stars
    But sometimes I hit London

  22. #52
    No. When did I say I support the definition as beginning with conception? Very important distinction.

    I posted the article to discuss the grey area parents and medical professionals face when dealing with whether to try to "save" the life of a prematurely born kid who will likely have severe brain damage. It's a slight tangent, but you can read the thread to see how it came up.

    But to get back to the core of the topic, I'm not being unscientific here. I'm talking about science's ability (or inability) to make a specific and final determination of a complex issue. And I'm not sure you really want to start splitting hairs over beginning of life vs. beginning of personhood. Because in the abortion debate they are basically undistinguishable.

    My opinion of when a fetus becomes a person with legal protections is probably very similar to your opinion. I don't think we can consider a fetus to have rights until very late in a pregnancy.

    I'm simply bringing up the ambiguity behind the issue that makes it difficult for us to lord "science" over those we disagree with. I think it's arrogant and doesn't help our position to dismiss those who disagree with us as an undifferentiated mass of uneducated cretins. There is very little biological consensus on the right answer here, as it's also an ethical issue.
    Last edited by Dreadnaught; 10-31-2011 at 12:06 PM.

  23. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    I posted the article to discuss the grey area parents and medical professionals face when dealing with whether to try to "save" the life of a prematurely born kid who will likely have severe brain damage. It's a slight tangent, but you can read the thread to see how it came up.
    It's not a slight tangent, it's misleading, which I think is what people are telling you.

    And I'm not sure you really want to start splitting hairs over beginning of life vs. beginning of personhood. Because in the abortion debate they are basically undistinguishable.
    This is false by definition.

  24. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    No. When did I say I support the definition as beginning with conception? Very important distinction.
    What? When did I say you did?

    I just asked how you would define a person. And to prevent dictionary wars I gave you the option to be as unscientific as you like (which also included being as scientific as you like).

    I posted the article to discuss the grey area parents and medical professionals face when dealing with whether to try to "save" the life of a prematurely born kid who will likely have severe brain damage. It's a slight tangent, but you can read the thread to see how it came up.
    ok.

    But to get back to the core of the topic, I'm not being unscientific here. I'm talking about science's ability (or inability) to make a specific and final determination of a complex issue. And I'm not sure you really want to start splitting hairs over beginning of life vs. beginning of personhood. Because in the abortion debate they are basically undistinguishable.
    No, they're not. A sperm is life. An egg is life. A fertilised sperm is life. Life doesn't begin at conception, it was there before and after. It's a very important and fundamental distinction to make. What makes someone a person is the discussion here.

    My opinion of when a fetus becomes a person with legal protections is probably very similar to your opinion. I don't think we can consider a fetus to have rights until very late in a pregnancy.
    Ah, the answer to my question. Thanks And indeed, it's similar to my own.

    I'm simply bringing up the ambiguity behind the issue that makes it difficult for us to lord "science" over those we disagree with. I think it's arrogant and doesn't help our position to dismiss those who disagree with us as an undifferentiated mass of uneducated cretins. There is very little biological consensus on the right answer here, as it's also an ethical issue.
    Science is the tool we can use to determine whether the conditions we set are met. Science itself dictates nothing.

    If we determine that a person needs to have awareness, science can help us determine when that awareness kicks in. A fetus without a Cerebral Cortex cannot be aware, so we need to use science to determine when this has developed for instance.
    Last edited by Ziggy Stardust; 10-31-2011 at 02:29 PM.
    I could have had class. I could have been a contender.
    I could have been somebody. Instead of a bum
    Which is what I am

    I aim at the stars
    But sometimes I hit London

  25. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    I'd be interested for Wiggin to weigh in on this one, I suspect he has some views on this.
    Hmm. I'll do my best, but to be honest my attention on this thread wandered once it got to the Schiavo case, so I'll just write whatever the hell I want and hope it's vaguely relevant.


    First on a philosophical note about the role of science vs. ethics in making these determinations:

    Science does not make any prescriptive statements. It is not normative, but rather descriptive; science tells us how things in the world work, but does not make determinations about what we should do about it. Furthermore, science is incapable of answering 'fuzzy' questions - it can only answered very clearly defined queries. As such, asking the question, "Is it alive?" is irrelevant to science unless you provide it with a clear, testable definition of life. (And believe me, there's quite a bit of debate in science over whether certain things are alive - e.g. viruses - that hinge on our definition of life). The point is that ideas like "life" and "personhood" and all of this other stuff are human overlays on existence that are fundamentally semantic distinctions. I don't mean semantic in the sense of trivial, but in the sense of relating to language and meaning. We, as people, assign meaning to the ideas of life and personhood and death, when all science sees is processes - things that happen, not nebulously defined states.

    As such, science is a useful tool for these discussions - to provide us with information about the beginning and end of life and the processes involved - but it cannot make a semantic distinction for us. It can only describe the events that happen and let us draw our own line in the sand. These questions are fundamentally ones of ethics/morality/religion. Obviously, science helps provide the information that guides that decision, but it can't make the decision on its own. Thus, I have no doubt that it's possible to articulate an ethical or religious viewpoint that would indicate that personhood begins at the fertilized egg. The only problem is that it would probably require a definition of personhood so broad as to include a lot of things that we don't consider people. It might be possible to resolve these issues - I don't know - but I can definitely see it would be a challenge.

    Onto the broader question:

    If we were to accept the axiom that the legality of an abortion rests on when the fetus becomes a 'person', then we have to articulate a reasonable definition thereof. Currently, my understanding is that absent special conditions (e.g. danger to the mother), abortions in most of the US are legal until approximately the earliest moment of viability. Thus, it would seem that the current definition suggests that a fetus is not a 'person' until it can theoretically survive outside the mother. Of course, this itself is a fuzzy definition - there's a survival curve for fetuses at different ages, so selecting a cutoff is scientifically challenging, but possible if we make certain determinations (say, 50% survival rate being determined as viability). Even then you have issues, since clearly such a premature baby cannot possibly survive on their own without extensive outside support. Supposing we were able to extend the available technology to move technical viability earlier and earlier, would we move back the date of acceptable abortions?

    Obviously this isn't a serious concern now, since the viability limit now has to do with the development of certain critical organ systems, and going earlier simply isn't possible. But what if we were able to create artificial wombs that would allow the baby's organ systems to fully mature outside the mother? Would we have to move abortion limits up, or would we instead have to revisit our definition of 'personhood'?

    Other criteria exist - neural function, for example - but those are also pretty iffy. A baby born as early as the earliest cerebral function (I believe Ziggy quoted something along these lines?) is likely to have extremely serious neural/mental deficits that would stretch the definition of 'personhood', though obviously if you move the benchmarks a few weeks you start to get much better outcomes. The point, though, is that this is a complex and fuzzy issue, and there's a reason we have any number of ethicists - religious or otherwise - who grapple with these issues. I would argue that such discussions need to be guided by the available science, but not determined by it. I would imagine that there are multiple valid ways of drawing the line of 'personhood' or whatever else.

    One last point before I disappear back to my hidey-hole: while there are similarities between the definitions of the beginning of human life and the end of it, there are pitfalls in taking the comparison too far. Death is a degenerative process, an ending. Thus, the definition of death merely needs to be some point after which recovery to doing the things that people do is irrevocably impossible - for example, total brain stem death, which means you'll never have another thought or freely drawn breath/heartbeat again (though I would caution to all of you that rarely is brain stem death verified in the clinic by rigorous methodology; we declare death in a rather more cursory manner). Beginning life is tougher, since it's a process of gradually gaining more capabilities and characteristics of being a 'person'. There isn't a point of no return so much as a point of diminishing returns, where additional gestation doesn't add much to the fetus' chances or capabilities. It's a complex question, and while definitions of what constitutes a person can be used across both life and death, we shouldn't take the comparison to the nitty-gritty details.

  26. #56
    Excellent post.
    I could have had class. I could have been a contender.
    I could have been somebody. Instead of a bum
    Which is what I am

    I aim at the stars
    But sometimes I hit London

  27. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
    Excellent post.
    He expressed the two issues I was trying to get at in my brief post so much better than I did. If it wasn't for the fact that I don't drink, I'd wonder if I'd been breaking Rule 12 when I posted yesterday.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  28. #58
    De Oppresso Liber CitizenCain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    <Mod hat> Congrats on being more hostile that the Ominous you think you're mocking. Over the top and unnecessary.</mod hat>
    Not just Ominous, and not mainly Ominous, even. He just happens to reliably use arguments that are easily turned against his position.

    But more to the point, and if only for shits and giggles... how was my post more hostile and etc. than the prevailing attitude in this thread (and around these parts in general) that anyone with a religious point of view is a crazy, dumbass nut-job because [incorrectly apply Science in an essentially religious manner here]?
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  29. #59
    Well, worshipping all-powerful nonexistent beings who really don't do much for this world they supposedly created is a bit......well....forget it, this is D&D and I ought not clutter it with my feelings on religion.

    Not that what I just wrote applies to the hostility part....

  30. #60
    De Oppresso Liber CitizenCain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catgrrl View Post
    Well, worshipping all-powerful nonexistent beings who really don't do much for this world they supposedly created is a bit......well....forget it, this is D&D and I ought not clutter it with my feelings on religion.
    Indeed, perish the thought... D&D cluttered with people's thoughts on religion and such matters. <shudder> Why it'd be almost as bad as allowing it to be cluttered with people's thoughts on politics and the like.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

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