Al Guardian of Palestine and Wall Street

[Loki]

We've already been shown "real income" for everyone but the top 1% has remained fairly flat since the 80's

That's a plain out lie.

[Loki]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/01/op...ality.html?hpw

David Brooks wrote something decent for once.

[CitizenCain]

How much of that Soviet Inequity he speaks of is due to the changing pool of college applicants and the shrinking pool of overpaid, mindless labor, you think? Back in the day, plenty of smart people got by and even excelled without a college degree, but these days, not going to college is almost like getting "born to lose" tattooed across the forehead.

[Loki]

It's definitely a major factor. The more information and the ability to process it matters, the less important unskilled sectors of the economy become. After all, why pay an American $10 an hour when you can pay a Vietnamese worker $1 for work that's half as productive.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/02/us...strike.html?hp

The rhetoric seems clearly Marxist to me...

[GGT]

Could you show us what the top 1% should have earned in that period? That might be more helpful.

It's not the amount earned that matters, but that their rate of income grew at massively disparate rates, in relation and context to everyone else. There will always be income gaps, but they used to move roughly in tandem, up and down at similar rates. The wealthiest 1% own 43% of all wealth, something not seen since the gilded age of robber barons and monopolies.

If the any quintile had lost income at a rate of over 250%, people would be appalled....

That's a plain out lie.

No, it's not--unless you've forgotten (or ignored) previous discussions (with links) about jobs and middle class shrinking, and income flat or stagnant since the 80's. Interesting you ignored the rest of my post, and a direct question.

[CitizenCain]

j000000000000000000000000000000000s!!!!!

Or do I need to come up with a new one for Marxist shit? I mean, the Marxists have historically been pretty anti-Jew too, so I think it still fits.

Anyway, GeeGee, your eyes aren't just there to keep your eyebrows from falling onto your cheeks. Many of us use our eyes to read things. Things like graphs. Graphs like the one we've all been talking about, which clearly shows the middle class and bottom quintile's real income increasing over time. Now, if those people have their increased income stolen by j00s after the fact, that's a different criticism, and one you need to address differently. Perhaps you could try something different, like blaming the j00... oh, nevermind. But it's still a different criticism.

[Ziggy Stardust]

Nessus wept.

[GGT]

j000000000000000000000000000000000s!!!!!

Or do I need to come up with a new one for Marxist shit? I mean, the Marxists have historically been pretty anti-Jew too, so I think it still fits.

Anyway, GeeGee, your eyes aren't just there to keep your eyebrows from falling onto your cheeks. Many of us use our eyes to read things. Things like graphs. Graphs like the one we've all been talking about, which clearly shows the middle class and bottom quintile's real income increasing over time. Now, if those people have their increased income stolen by j00s after the fact, that's a different criticism, and one you need to address differently. Perhaps you could try something different, like blaming the j00... oh, nevermind. But it's still a different criticism.

The CBO report has many graphs, use your eyes to read it, and look at more than one. There's nothing "Marxist" about wanting/needing a healthy middle class (or middle quintile earners) to make the bulk of our economy. There's nothing wrong with preferring a fat and healthy middle majority, over a top or bottom heavy hour-glass economy. Our mixed economy of 70% consumerism, with market capital and labor capital, with some regulatory supervision thrown in to even the playing field.

Now, instead of trolling around making insults, it's your fricking turn to post some constructive criticism...not toward me...but as a response to everything in the news that confirms: the shrinking middle class, flat or stagnant wages for two decades (relative to COL that includes healthcare and education inflation), underemployment, unemployment, inadequate retirement, high levels of consumer debt, etc. As published by the CBO, Bureau of Labor Statistics, Census Data, and academic Economist analyses (including The Economist or WSJ as 'magazine news', and peer-reviewed published university studies), all of which I've mentioned here and/or linked in other threads.

If you disagree with those results, or see no problem with the dismal growth picture it paints for the US, or have no idea why millions of Americans are angry and fed up.... explain why. With citations.

[Loki]

http://news.yahoo.com/nyc-arrest-rec...045625415.html

Totally unexpected.

[Hazir]

j000000000000000000000000000000000s!!!!!

Or do I need to come up with a new one for Marxist shit? I mean, the Marxists have historically been pretty anti-Jew too, so I think it still fits.

Marxists being anti-Jewish? Where did you get that nonsense from? Maybe you mixed them up with Bolsheviks etc; Marxism can be accused of a lot, but really not of anti-semitism.

[Hazir]

http://news.yahoo.com/nyc-arrest-rec...045625415.html

Totally unexpected.

People with property and/or good jobs are not allowed to be angry at the way we've all been taken for a ride by bankers?

[Loki]

Shows that they're as much as a part of the "1%" as the bankers they attack.

[Flixy]

I would say that with the houses listed in the article, most if not well are still in the bottom 99%, just not as low as you expected

[Enoch the Red]

I'll do you one better. I personally guarantee that every single one of them are in the bottom 99.9999991%.

[Hazir]

I would say that with the houses listed in the article, most if not well are still in the bottom 99%, just not as low as you expected

With a house in the $500,000 range you score in the 85-90 percentile, still way off from the top 1%. If you own the house free of any liens that is.

Also, living in a house doesn't mean you own that house. It could belong to their parents. But none of that is relevant, the fact that they are not homeless and dirt poor doesn't mean they don't have the right to protest against banks running amok.

[CitizenCain]

Now, instead of trolling around making insults, it's your fricking turn to post some constructive criticism...not toward me...but as a response to everything in the news that confirms: the shrinking middle class, flat or stagnant wages for two decades (relative to COL that includes healthcare and education inflation), underemployment, unemployment, inadequate retirement, high levels of consumer debt, etc. As published by the CBO, Bureau of Labor Statistics, Census Data, and academic Economist analyses (including The Economist or WSJ as 'magazine news', and peer-reviewed published university studies), all of which I've mentioned here and/or linked in other threads.

OK, fine. None of that shit you claim to have cited exists, (at least in any form that says what you're claiming) so stop making shit up and start accepting and understanding reality instead, which is that the middle class is not shrinking, wages are increasing in real terms (for all income classes in Amerika) and j00s are not stealing the Common Man's gold.

http://news.yahoo.com/nyc-arrest-rec...045625415.html

Totally unexpected.

“Sleeping beside the hardcore activists are increasing numbers of wealthy students turning up to make the most of the party atmosphere, drugs and free food,”



I'm outraged too! Now which way to the pizza and pot?

Marxists being anti-Jewish? Where did you get that nonsense from?

History, mainly.

Maybe you mixed them up with Bolsheviks etc; Marxism can be accused of a lot, but really not of anti-semitism.

Never mind that Bolsheviks are a type of Marxist (and a significant portion of Marxists at that) and Jews have typically emigrated in large numbers from countries adopting Marxist governments. Probably to keep the government from nationalizing all their j00 gold and imprisoning them for worshiping someone other than a dead, discredited German, but it still speaks to the point. Oh, and then there's that bit about rising up against the evil kapitalist money-havers, which in no way disproportionately impacts on the gold-hungry j00s.

[Hazir]

You know how many Jews were not only Marxist but also leading Marxists? Marxism was a highly appealing ideology for Jews in Europe (especially Russia) as it was explicitly not excluding them. Marx himself was a Jew. Also Bolshevism is a departure from Marxism. It has some similarities in that it references to Marxist ideas, but I doubt Marx could have recognized their travesty as a Marxist society.

[CitizenCain]

You know how many Jews were not only Marxist but also leading Marxists? Marxism was a highly appealing ideology for Jews in Europe (especially Russia) as it was explicitly not excluding them. Marx himself was a Jew.

None of which is material to the accuracy of the statement that "the Marxists have historically been pretty anti-Jew."

Just like the US has historically been ruled by a strong central government... despite the fact that it started out on the principles of weak, limited government and [in theory] strong personal liberties and protections for those liberties.

Also Bolshevism is a departure from Marxism. It has some similarities in that it references to Marxist ideas, but I doubt Marx could have recognized their travesty as a Marxist society.

I see. So what would an example of a True Scots...Marxist be, then?

[Dreadnaught]

While I realize my choice of thread title makes this request seem silly, but can we not get sidetracked towards Jewland on this?

Meanwhile, Oakland seems to be breaking-down into low-level riots as people try to start a "general strike".

[GGT]

OK, fine. None of that shit you claim to have cited exists, (at least in any form that says what you're claiming) so stop making shit up and start accepting and understanding reality instead, which is that the middle class is not shrinking, wages are increasing in real terms (for all income classes in Amerika) and j00s are not stealing the Common Man's gold.

Have you been in a drug-induced state of ignorant bliss for the last decade, or just since 2007? I realize you weren't around the forum for a while, and probably missed several threads discussing the facts surrounding our economic mess, but that's not license to accuse others of making shit up.

You also didn't give any links or citations to back up your opinion.

[Loki]

I would say that with the houses listed in the article, most if not well are still in the bottom 99%, just not as low as you expected

It's the 2nd percent being jealous of their 1st percent neighbors.

You also didn't give any links or citations to back up your opinion.

Except your own link proved you wrong. Pretty damn conclusively.

[CitizenCain]

Have you been in a drug-induced state of ignorant bliss for the last decade, or just since 2007?

Sweet mother of holy fucking shit. Irony overload, please bear with me while I reboot my brain.

You also didn't give any links or citations to back up your opinion.

Yeah, like Loki said, you disproved your own assertion pretty well for me, so I didn't need to.

Not that I would anyway, since I'm not in the habit of throwing pearls before swine, which is why I'm generally not going to bother digging up actual facts for you when you have an unblemished track record of ignoring them completely, or at best, twisting them in astoundingly absurd ways.

[GGT]

It's the 2nd percent being jealous of their 1st percent neighbors.

Only if you think the movement is about wealth envy, instead of protesting minority wealth's outsized [b]power[/i] in politics and business.

Except your own link proved you wrong. Pretty damn conclusively.

Only if you use my link to the CBO's [several page analysis] to one damn graph, and selectively decide to ignore/forget my other links from other sources, in other threads. Sure, income "grew" for all quintiles, even the lowest and poorest moved "up" a little bit.

Take a look at the CBO analysis of gov't transfers vs tax structures. It's not specifically mentioned in their report, but Bush's tax cuts in 2001 and 2003 (which were regressive and benefited the top tier) aren't put into relative / contextual terms, other than some vague pronouncement that "tax schemes became less progressive after 1979. Indeed, Reagan's tax cuts in the 80's and Clinton's tax cuts in the 90's are in there, along with trade agreements or other policy changes during that time---like NAFTA, or de-regulating the financial industry.

But the CBO is [supposedly] non-partisan and can't make any political statement. Just the facts. When their analysis is that income disparity has grown massively over the last three decades, it shouldn't matter if you're Democrat or Republican reading their report. This isn't a left or right wing agenda...it's more of an up or down perspective.

[CitizenCain]

Only if you think the movement is about wealth envy, instead of protesting minority wealth's outsized [b]power[/i] in politics and business.

You're right, minorities do have disproportionate power in politics. We should ban the NCAAP to help correct that injustice.

<Marxist shite>

[...]

This isn't a left or right wing agenda...it's more of an up or down perspective.

Actually, it's more of a "failure to understand elementary school level math" perspective... in addition to you moving the goal posts again.

[GGT]

Sweet mother of holy fucking shit. Irony overload, please bear with me while I reboot my brain.

Yeah, like Loki said, you disproved your own assertion pretty well for me, so I didn't need to.

Not that I would anyway, since I'm not in the habit of throwing pearls before swine, which is why I'm generally not going to bother digging up actual facts for you when you have an unblemished track record of ignoring them completely, or at best, twisting them in astoundingly absurd ways.

The facts I've posted only get yer goat when you don't agree with them. You use me as your whipping post only because you don't like the links and citations I've made, and you can't yell at those journalists or legislators. Much easier to yell at me. Here on this forum, oh yeah you get a hard-on by using your bullshit and contentious attitude, with flowery language. But your bullshit abilities only go so far, ya know.

If you think the Middle Class(es) are doing just fine, as a national whole, then maybe you've been living in your suburban Columbus, Ohio enclave just a little too long. Could you take your attitude to Toledo, Cleveland, Cincinnati? Have you taken a good look at the state of Ohio, or its general state of affairs? Compared its COL or standard/quality of life with your neighbor states?

Nah, you wouldn't do something like that. Too Nationalistic, too Federal related, too SSSocialistic, or too Humanistic. Too United States of America, I guess.

[CitizenCain]

You've never posted facts. Spin from someone pushing an agenda, not factual. This is like that "expert" thing all over again, where you keep insist some random inbred hick is an "expert" because he got quoted in some news article. Again, newspaper editorials are not the same thing as facts. Please, some some facts if you're going to claim you do that.

You can start by supporting your earlier claims with factual evidence: claims like the middle class shrinking, lower and middle class wages stagnating and whatever the other one was... something about j00s stealing the Common Man's gold, I believe. Cite facts, actual facts, to support those claims you made. And just to be extra clear, a journalist making vague assertions about perceptions and so on: not a fact.

And, since I have to work in a few hours to make my money, you'll have plenty of time to provide those facts about you and your poor, downtrodden OWS brethren, who apparently are so hard pressed for money they can sit around on the street all day "protesting" instead of getting a fucking job.

(And, just as a P.S., if you could stop being a presumptuous ass while you're at it, that'd be fantastic. I'm much, much more well-traveled than you, both inside North America and out of it, so if anyone here needs to poke their head out of the suburban rut they've been in for the past couple of decades, it'd be the person in the conversation that's been in the same suburban rut long enough to raise children to adulthood, not the person who needs an extra page to fill in the part of the form that asks for all places of residence in the last 7 years. )

[GGT]

You've never posted facts. Spin from someone pushing an agenda, not factual. This is like that "expert" thing all over again, where you keep insist some random inbred hick is an "expert" because he got quoted in some news article. Again, newspaper editorials are not the same thing as facts. Please, some some facts if you're going to claim you do that.

You can start by supporting your earlier claims with factual evidence: claims like the middle class shrinking, lower and middle class wages stagnating and whatever the other one was... something about j00s stealing the Common Man's gold, I believe. Cite facts, actual facts, to support those claims you made. And just to be extra clear, a journalist making vague assertions about perceptions and so on: not a fact.

And, since I have to work in a few hours to make my money, you'll have plenty of time to provide those facts about you and your poor, downtrodden OWS brethren, who apparently are so hard pressed for money they can sit around on the street all day "protesting" instead of getting a fucking job.

(And, just as a P.S., if you could stop being a presumptuous ass while you're at it, that'd be fantastic. I'm much, much more well-traveled than you, both inside North America and out of it, so if anyone here needs to poke their head out of the suburban rut they've been in for the past couple of decades, it'd be the person in the conversation that's been in the same suburban rut long enough to raise children to adulthood, not the person who needs an extra page to fill in the part of the form that asks for all places of residence in the last 7 years. )

I've always linked facts to support my views and opinions. Sorry if pages of posts and threads with links is too much for you to follow, or too hard to contend. In your mind everything appears to be a "fight" of sorts. Your approach is always in fight mode. There is no reason for your attitude, which is just that...an attitude. You're contentious without cause and arrogant without proof. Throwing wild punches and hoping to stay in the ring. That's the ubiquitous gambler profile, intent on defending the gamble for its own sake...to hell with any monetary loss involved...and fuck any people as innocent bystanders.

[Aimless]

http://libcom.org/library/socialism-...-chattopadhyay

http://www.weisbord.org/Ignorance.htm

[Loki]

http://news.yahoo.com/kitchen-volunt...215348689.html

An OWS person rapes one woman and assaults another. Not entirely surprising considering the number of people involved. But how do the OWS people respond? Report him to the police? Hold him to make sure he doesn't flee? No, they tell him to leave.

[Aimless]

Wait, you want people to forcibly restrain a person (who was not in fact trying to flee but rather coming back to the kitchen over and over again ) based on an allegation of rape several days ago? That's ridiculous. He was reported and was in fact picked up by the police.

"hey dawg i hurd this dawg rape sum1" can only get a man so far