Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 52

Thread: Democrats to Americans: Abstinence only, or die a long painful death.

  1. #1
    De Oppresso Liber CitizenCain's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Bottom of a bottle, on top of a woman
    Posts
    3,423

    Default Democrats to Americans: Abstinence only, or die a long painful death.

    Another entry in the "government is here to help you... help you DIE" file, I suppose.

    (Real article has linkies.)

    Quote Originally Posted by NYT
    A Tool to Quit Smoking Has Some Unlikely Critics
    By JOHN TIERNEY
    Published: November 7, 2011


    If you want a truly frustrating job in public health, try getting people to stop smoking. Even when researchers combine counseling and encouragement with nicotine patches and gum, few smokers quit.

    Recently, though, experimenters in Italy had more success by doing less. A team led by Riccardo Polosa of the University of Catania recruited 40 hard-core smokers — ones who had turned down a free spot in a smoking-cessation program — and simply gave them a gadget already available in stores for $50. This electronic cigarette, or e-cigarette, contains a small reservoir of liquid nicotine solution that is vaporized to form an aerosol mist.

    The user “vapes,” or puffs on the vapor, to get a hit of the addictive nicotine (and the familiar sensation of bringing a cigarette to one’s mouth) without the noxious substances found in cigarette smoke.

    After six months, more than half the subjects in Dr. Polosa’s experiment had cut their regular cigarette consumption by at least 50 percent. Nearly a quarter had stopped altogether. Though this was just a small pilot study, the results fit with other encouraging evidence and bolster hopes that these e-cigarettes could be the most effective tool yet for reducing the global death toll from smoking.

    But there’s a powerful group working against this innovation — and it’s not Big Tobacco. It’s a coalition of government officials and antismoking groups who have been warning about the dangers of e-cigarettes and trying to ban their sale.

    The controversy is part of a long-running philosophical debate about public health policy, but with an odd role reversal. In the past, conservatives have leaned toward “abstinence only” policies for dealing with problems like teenage pregnancy and heroin addiction, while liberals have been open to “harm reduction” strategies like encouraging birth control and dispensing methadone.

    When it comes to nicotine, though, the abstinence forces tend to be more liberal, including Democratic officials at the state and national level who have been trying to stop the sale of e-cigarettes and ban their use in smoke-free places. They’ve argued that smokers who want an alternative source of nicotine should use only thoroughly tested products like Nicorette gum and prescription patches — and use them only briefly, as a way to get off nicotine altogether.

    The Food and Drug Administration tried to stop the sale of e-cigarettes by treating them as a “drug delivery device” that could not be marketed until its safety and efficacy could be demonstrated in clinical trials. The agency was backed by the American Cancer Society, the American Heart Association, Action on Smoking and Health, and the Center for Tobacco-Free Kids.

    The prohibitionists lost that battle last year, when the F.D.A. was overruled in court, but they’ve continued the fight by publicizing the supposed perils of e-cigarettes. They argue that the devices, like smokeless tobacco, reduce the incentive for people to quit nicotine and could also be a “gateway” for young people and nonsmokers to become nicotine addicts. And they cite an F.D.A. warning that several chemicals in the vapor of e-cigarettes may be “harmful” and “toxic.” But the agency has never presented evidence that the trace amounts actually cause any harm, and it has neglected to mention that similar traces of these chemicals have been found in other F.D.A.-approved products, including nicotine patches and gum. The agency’s methodology and warnings have been lambasted in scientific journals by Dr. Polosa and other researchers, including Brad Rodu, a professor of medicine at the University of Louisville in Kentucky.

    Writing in Harm Reduction Journal this year, Dr. Rodu concludes that the F.D.A.’s results “are highly unlikely to have any possible significance to users” because it detected chemicals at “about one million times lower concentrations than are conceivably related to human health.” His conclusion is shared by Michael Siegel, a professor at the Boston University School of Public Health.

    “It boggles my mind why there is a bias against e-cigarettes among antismoking groups,” Dr. Siegel said. He added that it made no sense to fret about hypothetical risks from minuscule levels of several chemicals in e-cigarettes when the alternative is known to be deadly: cigarettes containing thousands of chemicals, including dozens of carcinogens and hundreds of toxins.

    Both sides in the debate agree that e-cigarettes should be studied more thoroughly and subjected to tighter regulation, including quality-control standards and a ban on sales to minors. But the harm-reduction side, which includes the American Association of Public Health Physicians and the American Council on Science and Health, sees no reason to prevent adults from using e-cigarettes. In Britain, the Royal College of Physicians has denounced “irrational and immoral” regulations inhibiting the introduction of safer nicotine-delivery devices.

    “Nicotine itself is not especially hazardous,” the British medical society concluded in 2007. “If nicotine could be provided in a form that is acceptable and effective as a cigarette substitute, millions of lives could be saved.”

    The number of Americans trying e-cigarettes quadrupled from 2009 to 2010, according to the Centers for Disease Control. Its survey last year found that 1.2 percent of adults, or close to three million people, reported using them in the previous month.

    “E-cigarettes could replace much or most of cigarette consumption in the U.S. in the next decade,” said William T. Godshall, the executive director of Smokefree Pennsylvania. His group has previously campaigned for higher cigarette taxes, smoke-free public places and graphic warnings on cigarette packs, but he now finds himself at odds with many of his former allies over the question of e-cigarettes.

    “There is no evidence that e-cigarettes have ever harmed anyone, or that youths or nonsmokers have begun using the products,” Mr. Godshall said. On a scale of harm from 1 to 100, where nicotine gums and lozenges are 1 and cigarettes are 100, he estimated that e-cigarettes are no higher than 2.

    If millions of people switch from smoking to vaping, it would be a challenge to conventional wisdom about the antismoking movement. The decline in smoking is commonly attributed to paternalistic and prohibitionist social policies, and it’s ritually invoked as a justification for crackdowns on other products — trans fats, salt, soft drinks, Quarter Pounders.

    But the sharpest decline in smoking rates in the United States occurred in the decades before 1990, when public health experts concentrated on simply educating people about the risks. The decline has been slower the past two decades despite increasingly elaborate smoking-cessation programs and increasingly coercive tactics: punitive taxes; limits on marketing and advertising; smoking bans in offices, restaurants and just about every other kind of public space.

    Some 50 million Americans continue to smoke, and it’s not because they’re too stupid to realize it’s dangerous. They go on smoking in part because of a fact that the prohibitionists are loath to recognize: Nicotine is a drug with benefits. It has been linked by researchers (and smokers) to reduced anxiety and stress, lower weight, faster reaction time and improved concentration.

    “It’s time to be honest with the 50 million Americans, and hundreds of millions around the world, who use tobacco,” Dr. Rodu writes. “The benefits they get from tobacco are very real, not imaginary or just the periodic elimination of withdrawal.

    “It’s time to abandon the myth that tobacco is devoid of benefits, and to focus on how we can help smokers continue to derive those benefits with a safer delivery system.”

    As a former addict myself — I smoked long ago, and was hooked on Nicorette gum for a few years — I can appreciate why the prohibitionists fear nicotine’s appeal. I agree that abstinence is the best policy. Yet it’s obviously not working for lots of people. No one knows exactly what long-term benefits they’d gain from e-cigarettes, but we can say one thing with confidence: Every time they light up a tobacco cigarette, they’d be better off vaping.
    Another day, another golden goose slain...

    Personally, I'm glad the government hasn't gotten its act together and started regulating and taxing these things (and thus forced me to buy my vaping gear from China ), but I do enjoy all the hypocrisy on the issue from the lefties and some of the medical associations that are willing to condemn millions of people to a long, painful death for tax revenue [ostensibly, though I'm open to other reasonable assessments of their motives].
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  2. #2
    I'd be of the opposite bent. If this can be shown to be a form of nicotine injection without the second hand risks then I'd be happy to eliminate almost all modern anti-smoking regulations ... With traditional cigarettes being outlawed.

  3. #3
    De Oppresso Liber CitizenCain's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Bottom of a bottle, on top of a woman
    Posts
    3,423
    Well, for one thing, why outlaw traditional smokes?

    And for another, anti-smoking regulations don't apply to "e-cigarettes." I suck on mine all day at my desk and elsewhere around the office, bust it out and use it after a nice meal at a restaurant, have used it hospitals and on airplanes, etc. There's no smoke involved, so those delightful laws affirming the government's ownership of all property within its borders don't apply to these things.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  4. #4
    I don't allow smoking in my house, but I did allow my friend to use his vapor cigarette inside once. It set off my carbon monoxide/explosive gas monitor. Guessing it was the aerosol that actually caused it, since that monitor will go off if I'm cooking with alcohol or if I'm baking bread that I let rise in the oven beforehand. Anyway, it was a neat little device; and I liked that it didn't stink like normal cigarettes. Last time I saw him he was back on regular cigarettes but I forgot to ask him why (before that he was trying to quit smoking).

    As an aside rant: I still don't get why cigarettes don't have ingredient labels. Do these vapor cigarettes have them either? Just curious.

  5. #5
    De Oppresso Liber CitizenCain's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Bottom of a bottle, on top of a woman
    Posts
    3,423
    Well, sort of. Maybe. Personally, I use a fairly expensive device that I refill with "juice" rather than the pre-filled disposables you can buy in gas stations and the like these days, so my experience is related to actually buying the juice, rather than a throw-away device with the juice in it already, so that may differ... but the only ingredients in the juice are nicotine, flavoring (optional) and the propylene glycol base (or there's a vegetable-based base available), so you kind of get the list of ingredients with the label telling you "what this bottle is."

    In the case of the bottle in front of me, that's just "PG, Menthol, 24mg," so I don't know if it qualifies as an ingredient label, but all the ingredients are listed as a function of selecting your juice of choice anyhow.

    I'll guess it's the same situation with cigarettes - the ingredients are processed tobacco, the paper to roll it in and the cotton filter... not a lot of need to put those three ingredients (which you can see anyway) on a specific ingredient label.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  6. #6
    Why is the title calling out Democrats? Are you suggesting that the ACA, AHA, and the FDA are agencies of the Democrats?

    The controversy is part of a long-running philosophical debate about public health policy, but with an odd role reversal. In the past, conservatives have leaned toward “abstinence only” policies for dealing with problems like teenage pregnancy and heroin addiction, while liberals have been open to “harm reduction” strategies like encouraging birth control and dispensing methadone.

    When it comes to nicotine, though, the abstinence forces tend to be more liberal, including Democratic officials at the state and national level who have been trying to stop the sale of e-cigarettes and ban their use in smoke-free places. They’ve argued that smokers who want an alternative source of nicotine should use only thoroughly tested products like Nicorette gum and prescription patches — and use them only briefly, as a way to get off nicotine altogether.

    The Food and Drug Administration tried to stop the sale of e-cigarettes by treating them as a “drug delivery device” that could not be marketed until its safety and efficacy could be demonstrated in clinical trials. The agency was backed by the American Cancer Society, the American Heart Association, Action on Smoking and Health, and the Center for Tobacco-Free Kids.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Why is the title calling out Democrats? Are you suggesting that the ACA, AHA, and the FDA are agencies of the Democrats?
    Well, they're all part of the Executive Branch which means they're all under the authority of a Dem President and his Dem cabinet Secretaries and their collected appointees approved by a Dem-controlled Congress, so I wouldn't find it unreasonable to suggest that they are Democratic-controlled agencies right now.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    Well, they're all part of the Executive Branch which means they're all under the authority of a Dem President and his Dem cabinet Secretaries and their collected appointees approved by a Dem-controlled Congress, so I wouldn't find it unreasonable to suggest that they are Democratic-controlled agencies right now.
    Perhaps appointed under a previous Republican administration. That's a bogus charge, that any federal agency is operating under one political party's "agenda", or that all its workers belong to (or operate under) one political party. Especially when it comes to public health issues, or untested and unproven things like e-cigarettes. Political party affiliation doesn't mandate exchanging one (known) health hazard for another (unknown) one. But scientists might be reluctant.

  9. #9
    De Oppresso Liber CitizenCain's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Bottom of a bottle, on top of a woman
    Posts
    3,423
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    Well, they're all part of the Executive Branch which means they're all under the authority of a Dem President and his Dem cabinet Secretaries and their collected appointees approved by a Dem-controlled Congress, so I wouldn't find it unreasonable to suggest that they are Democratic-controlled agencies right now.
    Yeah, that and the charge to ban them has been coming from Dems, not Republicans. The article says as much too, but GeeGee must have not read that part or whatever.

    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Political party affiliation doesn't mandate exchanging one (known) health hazard for another (unknown) one. But scientists might be reluctant.
    Except that it's replacing a known health hazard with a known non-hazard. That bit was also in the article, GeeGee.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by CitizenCain View Post
    Yeah, that and the charge to ban them has been coming from Dems, not Republicans. The article says as much too, but GeeGee must have not read that part or whatever.
    The article said it was health agencies trying to do the "banning". You just glommed onto the part that said

    When it comes to nicotine, though, the abstinence forces tend to be more liberal, including Democratic officials at the state and national level who have been trying to stop the sale of e-cigarettes and ban their use in smoke-free places. They’ve argued that smokers who want an alternative source of nicotine should use only thoroughly tested products like Nicorette gum and prescription patches — and use them only briefly, as a way to get off nicotine altogether.
    Except that it's replacing a known health hazard with a known non-hazard. That bit was also in the article, GeeGee.
    The article suggests theres no proven non-hazard from e-smokes, and that's why the FDA is reluctant to give its stamp of approval. That's got nothing to do with being a Democrat or Republican, but comes from a bunch of non-partisan scientists who want more studies before they give that stamp of approval, or recommend it as a "healthier" substitute for smoking tobacco with the FDA stamp.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by CitizenCain View Post
    Yeah, that and the charge to ban them has been coming from Dems, not Republicans. The article says as much too, but GeeGee must have not read that part or whatever.
    The article said it was health agencies trying to do the "banning". You just glommed onto the part that said

    When it comes to nicotine, though, the abstinence forces tend to be more liberal, including Democratic officials at the state and national level who have been trying to stop the sale of e-cigarettes and ban their use in smoke-free places. They’ve argued that smokers who want an alternative source of nicotine should use only thoroughly tested products like Nicorette gum and prescription patches — and use them only briefly, as a way to get off nicotine altogether.
    Except that it's replacing a known health hazard with a known non-hazard. That bit was also in the article, GeeGee.
    The article suggests theres no proven non-hazard from e-smokes, and that's why the FDA is reluctant to give its stamp of approval. That's got nothing to do with being a Democrat or Republican, but comes from a bunch of non-partisan scientists who want more studies before they give that stamp of approval, or recommend it as a "healthier" substitute for smoking tobacco with the FDA stamp.

  12. #12
    De Oppresso Liber CitizenCain's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Bottom of a bottle, on top of a woman
    Posts
    3,423
    Alright, feel free to let me know when you learn to read and process information that you disagree with.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  13. #13
    E-cigarettes are probably going to get FDA approval and be regulated in the same way tobacco is. I'm not sure if that means they'll be held to lower standards--wrt 1. making unsubstantiated claims and 2. having manufacturing issues such as shitty/non-existant quality control--than when they were viewed as drug delivery devices (which they were, not only in the "nicotine is a drug" sense but also in eg. the "rimonabant is a drug and here it is in an unapproved form" sense).

    But you can stop crying, your FDA-approved e-cigs are coming sooner or later.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by CitizenCain View Post
    Alright, feel free to let me know when you learn to read and process information that you disagree with.
    Gee, I hadn't even posted my own opinion about e-smokes, just my evaluation of the OP article you posted. I was asking why Democrats was in the title, or why you suggested "they" were to blame for e-smokes not being approved by the FDA?

    I don't know why e-smoke manufacturers can't find a temporary way to put their product in stores before FDA approval, just like energy drinks or vitamins do---by (somehow) not being labeled as a food or a drug. Also (somehow) not being an ATF product because it's neither alcohol nor tobacco nor firearm.

    My guess is that the nicotine is deemed an OTC drug, just like Nicorette gum or skin patches. But they don't know what to do about the untested vapors or delivery chemicals being inhaled directly into the lungs. And they're probably worried about future law suits from the millions of folks who bought e-smokes at Walgreen's or CVS, ended up with mesothelioma (or something) and sue the FDA in class action law suits for billions of dollars in damages.

  15. #15
    New drugs have to go through stricter processes before being allowed to be legal by the FDA etc

    There is no doubt in my mind, that under FDA guidelines were traditional cigarettes not already legal and nobody was already addicted and they were invented today - they would never be made legal.

    This leaves us in this weird sticky situation were e-cigs may or may not be legalised/banned. Yes they're safer than cigarettes, there's no disputing that. But "safer than cigarettes" is not the standard required to get FDA approval. I have no doubt there are plenty of drugs not allowed onto the market that are safer than cigarettes.

    The only reason that cigarettes are legal and crack cocaine is not is that there are far more addicted cigarette voters than addicted crack voters.

    E-cigs will almost certainly get cleared ultimately globally, more due to common sense than due to them necessarily passing the bar that new drugs normally have to go through.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    New drugs have to go through stricter processes before being allowed to be legal by the FDA etc

    There is no doubt in my mind, that under FDA guidelines were traditional cigarettes not already legal and nobody was already addicted and they were invented today - they would never be made legal.

    This leaves us in this weird sticky situation were e-cigs may or may not be legalised/banned. Yes they're safer than cigarettes, there's no disputing that. But "safer than cigarettes" is not the standard required to get FDA approval. I have no doubt there are plenty of drugs not allowed onto the market that are safer than cigarettes.

    The only reason that cigarettes are legal and crack cocaine is not is that there are far more addicted cigarette voters than addicted crack voters.

    E-cigs will almost certainly get cleared ultimately globally, more due to common sense than due to them necessarily passing the bar that new drugs normally have to go through.
    But you can't re-write history. Tobacco is a pretty simple and natural plant, easy to grow, harvest, dry...and crumble into smokeable parts. Just like marijuana, or even poppies.

    There's still no scientific basis for e-smokes being "safer" than cigarettes. First, you'd have to compare them to natural tobacco, then commercial tobacco with all sorts of chemical additives. And do a longitudinal study for at least ten years.

    Sure, new "drugs" have to go through a more rigorous process than before. But we're also more inclined to call any damn thing a "drug" even if it's dandelion tea, echinacea, or fish oil with omega whatever.

    I disagree with your take on FDA's legality of smoking tobacco leaves, but I agree with what you mean by the big tobacco companies who added other chemicals and addictive substances.

  17. #17
    That's pretty retarded for democrats to have that stance. If e-cigs are better then I'd be all for their sale. If cigarrets are legal then e-cigs should be legal to. I think if they do turn out to be helpful then i'm all for them. In fact, in high school I had the concept of just having cigs with the nicotine aspect. I had a lot of ideas for nicotine uses that was one of them. Some were geared toward helping people others were not, but the ones not were mostly thought up as a jest... For example imagine a company putting nicotine in something like burgers, if you can put them in cigs that will kill you/cause cancer why not a sandwhich that won't. Get people addicted to these Nico-burgers and you have yourself quite a franchise. People could even use it as a safer substitute to cigs.

    It was more of a jest, in the sense, I really didn't want to addict non-addicted but people, but if cigs can have nicotine, why not something else. If they can get addicted to a harmless but addicting substance win-win. Put that nicotine in anything and everything you can... get your nico-burger today!
    Last edited by Lebanese Dragon; 11-13-2011 at 09:21 PM.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by CitizenCain View Post
    Well, sort of. Maybe. Personally, I use a fairly expensive device that I refill with "juice" rather than the pre-filled disposables you can buy in gas stations and the like these days, so my experience is related to actually buying the juice, rather than a throw-away device with the juice in it already, so that may differ... but the only ingredients in the juice are nicotine, flavoring (optional) and the propylene glycol base (or there's a vegetable-based base available), so you kind of get the list of ingredients with the label telling you "what this bottle is."

    In the case of the bottle in front of me, that's just "PG, Menthol, 24mg," so I don't know if it qualifies as an ingredient label, but all the ingredients are listed as a function of selecting your juice of choice anyhow.

    I'll guess it's the same situation with cigarettes - the ingredients are processed tobacco, the paper to roll it in and the cotton filter... not a lot of need to put those three ingredients (which you can see anyway) on a specific ingredient label.
    I'd consider that a label. Thanks for the info!

  19. #19
    De Oppresso Liber CitizenCain's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Bottom of a bottle, on top of a woman
    Posts
    3,423
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    But you can stop crying, your FDA-approved e-cigs are coming sooner or later.
    Perish the thought! I prefer my unregulated, untaxed drug-fix, even if a lack of government oversight means that my suppliers will eventually ass-rape me for sport, sell my children into slavery and start injecting plutonium and industrial waste into the products I buy.

    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Gee, I hadn't even posted my own opinion about e-smokes, just my evaluation of the OP article you posted. I was asking why Democrats was in the title, or why you suggested "they" were to blame for e-smokes not being approved by the FDA?
    Yeah, kind of depressing, isn't it? No matter how low the bar is set, you manage to find a way to dig your way under it.

    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    New drugs have to go through stricter processes before being allowed to be legal by the FDA
    And what does that have to do with the price of prostitutes in Pyongyang? This drug hasn't been "new" [to the West] for hundreds of years.

    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    There is no doubt in my mind, that under FDA guidelines were traditional cigarettes not already legal and nobody was already addicted and they were invented today - they would never be made legal.
    Implicitly accepting that the natural order is that all things must be banned until reviewed and approved by our government owners masters.

    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    But they don't know what to do about the untested vapors or delivery chemicals being inhaled directly into the lungs.
    This is just like that thing of yours where you were freaking out about the propane embers from all the backyard grills in the middle of the wilderness causing wildfires. The base used (which is the only ingredient besides nicotine and flavoring) is classified GRAS by the FDA, and is used in a wide variety of products, including pharmaceuticals, and as a food additive. We have plenty of data on the effects of the other two ingredients as well, so there are no "untested vapors" here, which is more than can be said about a fart, so there's really no need for the government to get involved at all, thank you very much.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  20. #20
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    In the forests of the night
    Posts
    6,239
    Quote Originally Posted by CitizenCain View Post
    I'll guess it's the same situation with cigarettes - the ingredients are processed tobacco, the paper to roll it in and the cotton filter... not a lot of need to put those three ingredients (which you can see anyway) on a specific ingredient label.
    Actually, no. There's more stuff in cigarettes than that.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cigarette_additives

    The amount of smokers would be less if they actually had to smoke pure tobacco. The additives are needed to make a harsh experience "survivable" and, of course, to enhance the addictive nature of nicotine. Ammonia would be a pretty prominent example of such an addiction-enhancing additive.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  21. #21
    I don't see why pure tobacco would cause a decrease in smokers. The only reason there isn't more people smoking cigars is because everyone thinks they're no different than cigarettes.
    Praise the man who seeks the truth, but run from the one who has found it.

  22. #22
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    In the forests of the night
    Posts
    6,239
    Pure tobacco is pretty harsh. It is, after all, smoke. That's why there are those ingredients like menthol - to make it possible for everyone to take a drag without coughing their lungs out.

    And cigars are not much different to cigarettes. Same cancer risks (even elevated cancer risks to mouth, lips, et al. since they come into direct contact with the dried leaves), same health risks, same everything. Only real difference: The smoke of cigars is fouler than the one of cigarettes.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  23. #23
    How is cigar smoke fouler? Cigars are straight up tobacco with no chemicals added, a much better alternative than cigarettes. It's true that they might cause cancer, but then again so does sunlight and getting x-rayed at the doctor and it's not that big of a risk unless you smoke them frequently. And you've clearly never smoked a cigar because you're not supposed to inhale it.
    Praise the man who seeks the truth, but run from the one who has found it.

  24. #24
    Some people should probably be more careful wrt their exposure to UV radiation and x-rays.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  25. #25
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    In the forests of the night
    Posts
    6,239
    Quote Originally Posted by Knux897 View Post
    How is cigar smoke fouler? Cigars are straight up tobacco with no chemicals added, a much better alternative than cigarettes. It's true that they might cause cancer, but then again so does sunlight and getting x-rayed at the doctor and it's not that big of a risk unless you smoke them frequently. And you've clearly never smoked a cigar because you're not supposed to inhale it.
    Yes, you're not supposed to inhale it. However, your lips and the oral cavity in general are subject to higher dosages of nicotine and the assorted chemicals when smoking a cigar than when smoking a cigarette. The risks to contract cancer are similar - it's only the locations of the cancer types which differs.

    And fouler is my personal impression - I can't stand the smell, and I'm not alone in that regard.

    And you're comitting to a logical fallacy when you think that "no additives" makes for a "healthier" option. First of all, the additives are (safe for their intended purpose) almost negligible in their toxicological impact, it's the slow, low-temperature, low-oxygen burn of the tobacco itself that matters. For that matter, cigars are even worse than cigarettes because the burn has even less oxygen and an even lower temperature - which means that it burns dirtier.
    At those temperatures, it doesn't matter what you burn - it will always be toxic. That's also the reasons why burning waste is always done at very high temperatures - to burn the dioxins, aromatic and assorted other organic compounds into "clean" carbon dioxide.

    Lastly, regarding your sunlight argument: Best let that particular part of your diatribe lie - it makes you look like a fool. Think about what Paracelsus said in regard to poisons.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  26. #26
    De Oppresso Liber CitizenCain's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Bottom of a bottle, on top of a woman
    Posts
    3,423
    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    Actually, no. There's more stuff in cigarettes than that.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ette_additives
    Hence the word "processed." And yes, the "processing" involves adding crap to the tobacco in cigarettes to make it more... palatable and more addictive.

    But now that I think about it, US labeling laws apply to things you eat or drink, not things you inhale, so that's probably why there's no specific ingredient labels on cigarettes or nicoteen vaporizers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    The amount of smokers would be less if they actually had to smoke pure tobacco. The additives are needed to make a harsh experience "survivable" and, of course, to enhance the addictive nature of nicotine. Ammonia would be a pretty prominent example of such an addiction-enhancing additive.
    I don't know about that... ever tried a hooka? Way less harsh than a cigarette, even using pure tobacco. Of course, American law enforcement's war on personal liberty and self-ownership of our bodies makes them rare in these parts ("it's a [Marijuana] bong, seize and destroy it" ), but they seem to provide a counter-example to your assertion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Knux897 View Post
    How is cigar smoke fouler?
    In every possible way. Cigarette smoke is one thing - you can walk into a room thick with cigarette smoke from hundreds of cigarettes (like bars around here used to be, <sigh>) and you'll still feel better than walking into a room with one cigar burning. It's just nastier and thicker and dirtier.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  27. #27
    At the end of the days cigs, and cigars, and all sorts of drugs will naturally be only used by a small percentage of the population as people become more educated.

    I think they'll always be a percent (legal or illegal) that will choose to do it for whatever reason. But that the number will continually shrink (percent wise).

  28. #28
    Cigarillos smell the best, you can actually enter a room where people recently smoked them and the smell will be pleasant. Since as far as I can tell cigarillos are just cigars downsized to cigarette size I don't see why the smoke from cigars would by necessity be fouler, perhaps different flavors are popular among cigar and cigarillos smokers?

    And there is also a pipe option also which seems to smell quite nice as well at least the tobacco with addition of vanilla that my friend smokes does.

    I have tried electronic cigarettes, it is not the same as the real thing. I found it easier just to quit, but the fact that I was waking up with an unpleasant feeling my throat when I smoked more then 5 cigarettes the day before greatly helped. Wouldn't want them to ban tobaco thou, it is still a pleasure to permit myself to smoke 1 or 2 cigarillos once in a while with a glass cognac.

  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
    Cigarillos smell the best, you can actually enter a room where people recently smoked them and the smell will be pleasant.
    Urgh, that is most definitely a personal opinion. Smokers never realise how vile their habit actually smells, its like walking into the bathroom after someone else has had a shit.

    I have never smelt a cigar, cigarette, cigarillo etc that has not smelt absolutely vile. I would say IMO that cigars frequently smell somewhat less vile than cigarettes.

    Bongs/spliffs etc smell far more pleasant than cigarettes etc do.

  30. #30
    Obviously smell is a personal opinion, I do not agree that it depends on whether the person is a smoker or not thou. I smoked all the listed products at one time or another, it is true that while you are in the room and smoking your senses get attuned to the smell and you do not smell anything pleasant or otherwise, but when you come back to the apartment having been outside in fresh air for some time the smell hits you just as hard as any non smoker (being non smoker now I can tell.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •