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Thread: Ireland to go bust

  1. #301
    Bankruptcy is a legal definition that some think can't apply to states, mainly because it hasn't happened before. It's probably possible. After all, if a state can't pay debts, has no cash and no one will lend to them, that's pretty much the prerequisite for bankruptcy. But our bankruptcy code isn't really written for states.

    The federal government would have to improvise on the fly to put a state in the receivership of the federal government and negotiate with creditors. That is of course assuming the federal government has the right to do so, I don't think that's explicitly stated in bankruptcy code and could be challenged in court.

    http://www.slate.com/id/2246915/

  2. #302
    I laugh at all the borrowing going on. I mean, come on, is there any government that isn't in hock to somebody? I bet Ierland even holds some U.S. debt. It all looks like a shell game to me.
    Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
    If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?

  3. #303
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    The tough talk was toned down significantly over the weekend. Ireland got its bailout (implicit message Portugal will get it too if it needs one) and Portugal doesn't have a real estate bubble or a banking sector on the brink. Nor does it have government finances in a shambles like Greece. So please explain to me how the situation got worse for Portugal over the weekend? The risks for holding Portugese bonds significantly improved over the weekend. How does that add up to a higher spread ?
    "When the facts change, I change my mind" ~ Keynes

    Ireland's bailout (and the talk from Germany etc that went with it) was a significant change in the facts and you're surprised that there was a reaction to it?

  4. #304
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    Bankruptcy is a legal definition that some think can't apply to states, mainly because it hasn't happened before. It's probably possible. After all, if a state can't pay debts, has no cash and no one will lend to them, that's pretty much the prerequisite for bankruptcy. But our bankruptcy code isn't really written for states.

    The federal government would have to improvise on the fly to put a state in the receivership of the federal government and negotiate with creditors. That is of course assuming the federal government has the right to do so, I don't think that's explicitly stated in bankruptcy code and could be challenged in court.

    http://www.slate.com/id/2246915/
    It would depend on who is running the federal government at the time. If a Democrat were running it I'm sure the state would get a bailout. But can you see a Republican surviving any type of re-election rescuing California from their own terrible decisions?

    The best solution would be to have the state sort it out. If it can't pay its workers, honor its debt; too bad for it, the federal government has no requirement to make sure states stay solvent.

  5. #305
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    It would depend on who is running the federal government at the time. If a Democrat were running it I'm sure the state would get a bailout. But can you see a Republican surviving any type of re-election rescuing California from their own terrible decisions?

    The best solution would be to have the state sort it out. If it can't pay its workers, honor its debt; too bad for it, the federal government has no requirement to make sure states stay solvent.
    Not only yes I could see a Republican surviving that, I think they'd find it easier to survive that than a Democrat would.

    The clear demarcation you are trying to make between State and Nation was destroyed by a Republican President long ago.

  6. #306
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    "When the facts change, I change my mind" ~ Keynes

    Ireland's bailout (and the talk from Germany etc that went with it) was a significant change in the facts and you're surprised that there was a reaction to it?
    Yes, given that the reaction to a more secure environment was one that was suitable for a less secure environment.

    It's as if a tightrope walker all of a sudden gets scared after stepping off the rope onto the platform.
    Congratulations America

  7. #307
    You may think the environment was more secure. It appears the investors and wiggin think its less secure.

    Personally, I can see why investors are worried given the increased talk regarding haircuts etc - I don't see any reason to think that Portugal etc is now more secure on the other hand. It's as if after walking across the tightrope an initiate realises they now need to face the trapeze, except now there's somebody considering pulling the safety net away.

  8. #308
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    You may think the environment was more secure. It appears the investors and wiggin think its less secure.

    Personally, I can see why investors are worried given the increased talk regarding haircuts etc - I don't see any reason to think that Portugal etc is now more secure on the other hand. It's as if after walking across the tightrope an initiate realises they now need to face the trapeze, except now there's somebody considering pulling the safety net away.
    In the real world there is a decrease in talk about haircuts by the people who are able to administer such, not an increase. So where the hell do you get the increase from? Or are we talking about plain hysteria that translates less insistence on haircuts as meaning that they are more likely?

    Also, nobody is considering in any way to pull away the safety net. Quite to the contrary, the safety net even was put up for a real hopeless case as Ireland.
    Congratulations America

  9. #309
    The "real world"? The markets represent the real world, the people putting their money where their mouth is, not the press conferences of politicians, and the market is showing a distinct drop in confidence.

    Unless you believe the markets don't represent what people are doing with their money? Perhaps its controlled by a zionist conspiracy or lizard people out to cause mayhem and destruction. I know, Dr Evil is behind it isn't he?

  10. #310
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    The "real world"? The markets represent the real world,
    That's a joke, right? The markets have left the real world looong time ago.
    "Wer Visionen hat, sollte zum Arzt gehen." - Helmut Schmidt

  11. #311
    No joke. So Martians are putting the money in are they?

    The markets may not always be collectively sensible, but to err is human.

  12. #312
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    The "real world"? The markets represent the real world, the people putting their money where their mouth is, not the press conferences of politicians, and the market is showing a distinct drop in confidence.

    Unless you believe the markets don't represent what people are doing with their money? Perhaps its controlled by a zionist conspiracy or lizard people out to cause mayhem and destruction. I know, Dr Evil is behind it isn't he?
    Again, the people who can apply the 'haircut' have said that they won't. How do you make that an increase in the probability?
    Congratulations America

  13. #313
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    No joke. So Martians are putting the money in are they?

    The markets may not always be collectively sensible, but to err is human.
    You appear to be entirely unaware of half of the 'market'. Shorting is a way of making money.
    Congratulations America

  14. #314
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    No joke. So Martians are putting the money in are they?
    Investor usually don't gamble with their own money.

    The currency market is currently totally off the PPP values.
    "Wer Visionen hat, sollte zum Arzt gehen." - Helmut Schmidt

  15. #315
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    You appear to be entirely unaware of half of the 'market'. Shorting is a way of making money.
    I was gonna say as much. Traders, speculators, and "bond vigilantes" routinely distort The Markets. Add in moves by ECB or IMF and that Efficient Market Theory is bunk. Moody's is threatening to downgrade Portugal's credit rating.....hard to tell which tail is wagging the dog.

    <Isn't this reminding anyone of the US financial fiasco that played out with Lehman, Bear Stearns, AIG, Goldman Sachs, Big Banks, and ratings agencies? AAA one day, basic junk the next, massive sell-offs until our Treasury and Federal Reserve stepped in to buy toxic crap and guarantee debt? QEI and QEII, buying bonds and printing money?>


    The cost to insure the government debt blew out to records for the other PIGS, Portugal and Spain. But, observes Uwe Parpart, chief economist and Asian strategist for Cantor Fitzgerald, the effect spread from the periphery of Europe to the center, Italy and Belgium. "It's clear that markets are concluding that there's not enough money in the Brussels [the seat of the EU] rescue fund if Spain and then Italy come seriously under the gun…as [credit default swap] spreads suggest they will," he writes in his daily clients' letter.

    One problem is that, unlike Ireland, the governments of Italy, Portugal, Greece and Spain face substantial debt maturities by the end of 2011, according to Parpart. Italy will see debt equal to 20% of its gross domestic product come due by the end of next year, and the market has shown itself inhospitable to rolling over maturing obligations of the dicey debtors. An Italian debt auction went sour, requiring yields of 4.43%, up hugely from 3.89% on Oct. 28, he points out.

    Portugal isn't far behind, with sovereign debt equal to 18% of GDP maturing by the end of 2011. Greece has debt equal to 17.7% of GDP coming due by the end of next year, but no worries, given the EU-IMF lifeline. Not so Spain, with debt equal to 14.4% of a vastly larger GDP maturing by the time 2011 closes out. Ireland's sovereign debt equal to 7.3% of GDP maturing in the next 13 months seems almost trivial, except that doesn't take into account the debt of the bankrupt banking system, which Dublin effectively took on in the wake of the collapse of the fall of 2008.
    http://online.barrons.com/article/SB...mod=BOL_hpp_dc


    Options outlined by economists at Societe Generale SA and Barclays Capital include: Boosting the 750 billion-euro ($975 billion) temporary rescue fund or turning it into an asset- buying program; cutting interest rates on bailout loans; issuing joint bonds for the 16 euro nations or flooding the economy with cash from the European Central Bank.

    All would be unprecedented, and none of Europe’s political leaders -- dominated by German Chancellor Angela Merkel -- has indicated the steps are being considered. Earlier this year, they struggled to cobble together the measures that investors and economists now say are proving inadequate to safeguard the euro and keep speculators at bay.

    “You’ve had repeated interventions, but the markets are still selling in response,” said Andrew Balls, London-based head of European portfolio management at Pacific Investment Management Co., which runs the world’s biggest bond fund. “Policy makers have to move beyond a country-by-country approach and think about the system-wide challenges.”
    Behind the selloff are concerns that the European Union is overcharging Ireland; fear that politically unpopular deficit cuts will flop or trigger recession; suspicion some countries may still restructure their debt; doubts that cash injections can treat underlying debt woes, and speculation that the EU’s fractured politics will negate a pledge by Economic and Monetary Affairs Commissioner Olli Rehn to do “whatever it takes” to maintain financial stability.

    While euro-area governments can lend to each other, they are barred from assuming each other’s debts under rules dictated by Germany in the 1990s.
    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-1...bt-crisis.html

  16. #316
    tbh I think most of those speculators deserve a kick in the face with steel-faced boots, just to make clear they are -as a group- scum.
    But since that's not going to happen we'll have to live with them.

    As this whole thing progresses the less I think the euro will collapse. The stakes for all of Europe are too high. So my prognosis remains: we'll end up with a more unified economical policy on EU-wide basis. There will be crisis for a while to come but the EU (especially where it overlaps with the eurozone) will come out stronger.
    And there's always a chance that somehow the speculators will be relieved of their ill-gotten gains...

  17. #317
    3) Announce a specific plan to boost purchases of government bonds. Some economists contend the ECB has been much too timid to date, and needs to buy hundreds of billions of euros worth of government debt to truly buffer Greece, Ireland, Portugal, Spain and Italy from contagion.

    This is the favored outcome for markets, but the diciest for Mr. Trichet and the unlikeliest outcome. It would provoke outrage not only within the ECB, but in Germany, whose financial support for EU-led rescues is critical to solving the debt crisis. German finance officials roundly criticized the Fed’s recent expansion of its government bond purchases.

    It’s also unlikely that the ECB could come up with a sufficient amount to calm investor nerves.

    Mr. Trichet has one more roadblock: his own mandate. The Fed — which has a dual mandate of low inflation and maximum sustainable employment — was able to justify quantitative easing by arguing that U.S. unemployment was too high, and that Fed policy could help bring it down.

    The ECB’s sole mandate is price stability, and annual inflation is, at 1.9%, smack dab on the ECB’s target of just under 2%, meaning it has little or no disinflation or deflation justification for making large-scale bond buys.

    As J.P. Morgan’s Mr. Fuzesi puts it: “If the ECB were to step up bond purchases in the current environment, it would be monetizing the debt of sovereigns who cannot access capital markets due to concerns about solvency.” If that happens, the ECB risks “making itself subservient to the fiscal authorities.”
    http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2010/...mod=marketbeat

  18. #318
    Hazir - a nice piece talking about this issue is below. Basically, he argues that the markets underestimate the determination by the ECB and European governments to keep these countries and institutions from failing. I personally think this is because the response so far has been so muddled and self-contradictory at times that markets simply don't believe pronouncements by the major players any more. Left without a safety net, it only makes sense for them to drive yields up.

    What bothers me about your approach is that you have a pet theory about how markets should be moving, and when they don't move in that direction you say the market's irrational and being manipulated. Yet my approach is to look a the bond market's gyrations - often tied quite closely to pronouncements from the big players involved - and develop my model from there. On the face of it, it seems quite clear that the market is not convinced that there will be rescues for other heavily indebted countries in the EMU, and that at some point they are at default or haircut risk, so they're pricing that into their purchases.

    I don't doubt that a few sufficiently large players can (and sometimes do) manipulate markets to make some money. But we don't need a convoluted explanation to explain most of the market's pessimism in this case, and at the end of the day prices wouldn't fall this much unless there was some real worry behind any machinations. Markets are scared, and the wishy-washy horse trading going on about every single bailout makes them feel rather insecure.

    http://www.economist.com/blogs/freee...n_debt_worries
    Quote Originally Posted by Free Exchange
    LOTS of people around the internet have lots of things to say about the latest twists and turns in Europe. I've been letting events percolate over the last few days and trying to take a broader view. You should all know, by the way, that the print edition's coverage of the ongoing crisis has been excellent and very thorough (see especially this, and this). Buttonwood and Charlemagne have done a good job tracking the blow-by-blow.

    In terms of the latest twists and turns, there are a few key questions. One issue is the solvency of various governments. Things became messy when Germany pressed for talks about debt restructuring in troubled economies, which spooked markets, especially with regard to Ireland, which had only recently announced a big jump in the cost of supporting its banks. Ireland didn't want a rescue and didn't think it actually needed one; it thought it could accept the austerity necessary to handle its debts, daunting as the prospect seemed. Maybe it could have at lower yields, but markets became nervous as yields rose a bit, which pushed yields up further. Worse, banks began leaking deposits (read Buttonwood on this dynamic) which worried Europe a great deal.

    And so Europe got Ireland to take a deal which provided financing, but at rates that brought Irish solvency into serious question. More troubling, the deal didn't take the opportunity to hash out what restructuring might mean, particularly with regards to the other countries that had been increasingly involved in the contagion of rising bond yields. And so the Irish deal didn't calm markets, and now yields and default spreads are hitting scary levels in big, scary countries like Spain and Ireland, and leading to all kinds of musing about whether the euro area might not be doomed after all.

    It's true: voters are unhappy everywhere. They're unhappy in Germany, which sees itself as preparing to foot the bill the crisis. They're unhappy in the crisis countries, where austerity is biting but failing to sway markets thanks to wagging German tongues. And they're unhappy in previously safe countries like France and Belgium, where the crisis is boosting debt costs and seemingly threatening the European project.

    But people seem to underestimate the commitment to Europe. There is a great deal of pride on the line in every country involved, and pride is a powerful thing. Just as the Irish were willing to suffer greatly for several years to come to avoid a loss of sovereignty and the ignominy of default, so do the Spanish and Portuguese and Italians want to avoid the need for a rescue, and absolutely want to avoid being the derelict that breaks the union. European leaders across the euro zone believe in the project and the gains it has brought to their economies. Meanwhile, global influence within an influential euro zone is something worth having. Even Germany would be a diplomatic and economic lightweight if forced to deal with the world all by its lonesome. Setting aside the threat of financial and economic disaster were the euro zone to fracture, Europeans are serious about maintaining the union and the single currency.

    It's interesting to hear what European Central Bank president Jean-Claude Trichet had to say today:

    " Jean-Claude Trichet, European Central Bank president, has left open the possibility of the bank significantly expanding its government bond purchases and warned markets not to underestimate Europe’s determination to resolve the escalating eurozone crisis...

    The ECB thinks financial markets are badly mis-pricing risk. Mr Trichet said that “pundits are under-estimating the determination of governments”. Eurozone growth was proving surprisingly strong, and Ireland’s bail-out at the weekend had shown the EU was capable of responding to crisis. “I don’t think that financial stability in the eurozone, given what I know, could really be called into question,” he said."

    That's precisely the issue, isn't it? Markets are underestimating Europe's determination to resolve the escalating crisis. Exactly. And that, in turn, implies that Europe is not adequately demonstrating its determination. In particular, the European Central Bank, which could be killing two birds with one stone by engaging in quantitative easing through the purchase of European government bonds, is demonstrating something like outright hostility to the euro zone by acting the most hawkish of major rich country central banks.

    A demonstration of commitment to Europe requires a little bit from everyone, and what it requires from the ECB is that it act like the European Central Bank, rather than just a Bundesbank that gets to impose unreasonably hard money on everyone in the single currency. Mr Trichet, who has had to earn his post by acting as German as a Frenchman can possibly be expected to act, seems to be realising that that's not actually what's required of the ECB.

    As I've said before, this is a political crisis first and foremost. If the politicians want the euro zone to continue, then it will continue.

  19. #319
    wiggin, the ECB has a different role than our Fed.

    Your approach sounds like a resignation for power to the bond vigilantes. "The Market" wants what it wants: government guarantees for everyone's debt and financial funny-business. They don't want to write down their losses or make value investments, so much as make politicians and central bankers jump and ask how high. Then we've got a politicized Fed and monetized debt.

    (which is a big complaint of the US taxpayer. Private gains, public losses.)

  20. #320
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    Quote Originally Posted by wiggin View Post
    Hazir - a nice piece talking about this issue is below. Basically, he argues that the markets underestimate the determination by the ECB and European governments to keep these countries and institutions from failing. I personally think this is because the response so far has been so muddled and self-contradictory at times that markets simply don't believe pronouncements by the major players any more. Left without a safety net, it only makes sense for them to drive yields up.

    What bothers me about your approach is that you have a pet theory about how markets should be moving, and when they don't move in that direction you say the market's irrational and being manipulated. Yet my approach is to look a the bond market's gyrations - often tied quite closely to pronouncements from the big players involved - and develop my model from there. On the face of it, it seems quite clear that the market is not convinced that there will be rescues for other heavily indebted countries in the EMU, and that at some point they are at default or haircut risk, so they're pricing that into their purchases.

    I don't doubt that a few sufficiently large players can (and sometimes do) manipulate markets to make some money. But we don't need a convoluted explanation to explain most of the market's pessimism in this case, and at the end of the day prices wouldn't fall this much unless there was some real worry behind any machinations. Markets are scared, and the wishy-washy horse trading going on about every single bailout makes them feel rather insecure.

    http://www.economist.com/blogs/freee...n_debt_worries
    I knew that piece already. What you see with me is a believe in the ability of the markets to fix the economy in general. But that doesn't mean I have to be blind to some things; besides the governments who didin't get their budget in order there is the market that totally illogically treated all sovereign debts in Europe as if it was as safe as German Bunds. That was never the case and it still isn't the case. For what is happening right now there can be two explanations. The first would be that the market has come to its senses about risk evaluations and is now hysterically trying to address the risks at their appropriatate level. I would find that an acceptable theory if this would have been Ireland and Greece only. Cooked books and unaffordable bank crises can make for nasty shocks. However, the other way of looking at this is that this is a great way to make some quick money and that people in 'the market' are not so much busy re-adjusting but simply adding to the crisis because that is in their interest. Now that we are reaching the point where Portugal appears to be under attack for really no logical reason. The country's public finances aren't in such a horrible state, it doesn't have to deal with a rotten banking sector and there is no bubble to deflate. However, it is small enough to be moved and moving it will cause the transfer of billions of euros from the treasuries of Europe into the pockets of traders.

    I think it is worthwhile to consider that different explanations apply to different situations. And if the level of hysteria was really the only factor deciding the next victim then not Portugal but Spain would have to be in the line of fire. Not so easy to pull that trick off though.
    Congratulations America

  21. #321
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    ...Now that we are reaching the point where Portugal appears to be under attack for really no logical reason. The country's public finances aren't in such a horrible state, it doesn't have to deal with a rotten banking sector and there is no bubble to deflate. However, it is small enough to be moved and moving it will cause the transfer of billions of euros from the treasuries of Europe into the pockets of traders...
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereport...n_of_port.html

    oops?

  22. #322
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    Ok, that is new to me.
    Congratulations America

  23. #323
    This is what happens when you let Socrates rule your country.

  24. #324
    Shorting is a way to make money but it's also a way to lose money. While some speculators can win, some speculators can and do lose - and can lose big. As a whole speculators, like the market, tend to go the way the people behind them expect to go. This isn't just a small amount of money involved where it can be easily fixed with no risk attached by one individual.

    With the story about Portugal's banks problems that you weren't aware of Hazir, that's a change of facts from what you knew about ... does the market reaction now make more sense?

    PS I think it was to your credit that you acknowledged it was new to you

  25. #325
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Shorting is a way to make money but it's also a way to lose money. While some speculators can win, some speculators can and do lose - and can lose big. As a whole speculators, like the market, tend to go the way the people behind them expect to go. This isn't just a small amount of money involved where it can be easily fixed with no risk attached by one individual.

    With the story about Portugal's banks problems that you weren't aware of Hazir, that's a change of facts from what you knew about ... does the market reaction now make more sense?

    PS I think it was to your credit that you acknowledged it was new to you
    Only if the pressure on Portugal started after the release of that report by the Portugese central bank. I don't know the exact timing for that, and I seriously doubt investors knew about it before its publications. Anyway it seems relatively moot now that the ECB has said it will even consider (effective) QE to prevent further contagion.
    Congratulations America

  26. #326
    The German chancellor, Angela Merkel, has warned for the first time that her country could abandon the euro if she fails in her contested campaign to establish a new regime for the single currency, the Guardian has learned.

    At an EU summit in Brussels at the end of October that was dominated by the euro crisis and wrangling over whether to bail out Ireland, Merkel became embroiled in a row with the Greek prime minister, George Papandreou, according to participants at the event's Thursday dinner.

    Merkel's central aim, which she achieved, was to win agreement on re-opening the Lisbon treaty so a permanent system of bailout funding and investor losses could be established to deal with debt crises that have laid Greece and Ireland low and are threatening Portugal and Spain. The Germans also called for bailed-out countries to lose voting rights in EU councils.

    At the Brussels dinner on 28 October attended by 27 EU heads of government or state, the presidents of the European commission and council, and the head of the European Central Bank, witnesses said Papandreou accused Merkel of tabling proposals that were "undemocratic".

    "If this is the sort of club the euro is becoming, perhaps Germany should leave," Merkel replied, according to non-German government figures at the dinner. It was the first time in the 10 months since the euro was plunged into a fight for its survival that Germany, the EU's economic powerhouse and the lynchpin of the euro's viability, had suggested that quitting the currency is an option, however unlikely.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010...y-abandon-euro


  27. #327
    It is more practical for Germany to leave the euro than Greece or Ireland which would essentially have to default on their debts and suffer massive capital flight were it to happen. I suspect Merkel was just bluffing/over-reacting though.

    The idea of losing voting rights is incredibly undemocratic.

  28. #328
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    The only countries that can actually afford to leave the euro are the countries that are the least likely to gain from departure.
    Congratulations America

  29. #329
    Everything's now safe and sound in the eurozone there will be no further problems. If Jonah Brown's saying things are awful they must be OK: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-11953413

    Almost single-handedly destroyed UK Plc and he's got the cheek to now pronounce on Europe? Just go back to Scotland and hide away, you should be used to that by now.

  30. #330
    My Bank of Ireland stock play is up 14%. When should I sell?

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