View Poll Results: Did DSK rape the chambermaid ?

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Thread: So, did he or didn't he?

  1. #301
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    İ am sure that a lot of people who ever had to deal with a person so drunk he or she lost control of himself could imagine a perfectly logical reason as to what happened. No matter how bad it may look to people who were not there. İ had the pleasure once of having to deal with somebody losing it at a club, puking over me in the taxi back home and winding up half naked in my shower. The last thing on my mind was sex. Quite another crime was, it involved throwing him out a fourth floor window, head first.
    Congratulations America

  2. #302
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    Again, do you have to be convicted in court of a crime in order to lose your job?
    That appears to be the case in the New York police force as the verdict was the trigger for dismissal. Technically they trespassed and that was the official reason for firing them.
    Congratulations America

  3. #303
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    You're trying to say that "utterances" aren't relevant? Perhaps not, but that's up to the judge to decide. Whether it's deemed hearsay, relevant, or whatever. Are you attempting to use the police testimony about 'cuddling' irrelevant?
    Were they charged with it? İf no then the only meaning that story has that as cuddling is not raping they were denying the crime they were accused of.
    Congratulations America

  4. #304
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    Were they charged with it? İf no then the only meaning that story has that as cuddling is not raping they were denying the crime they were accused of.
    And both cops were found innocent of rape. What's your beef again?

  5. #305
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    According to the NYT yes.
    Congratulations America

  6. #306
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    Were they charged with it? İf no then the only meaning that story has that as cuddling is not raping they were denying the crime they were accused of.
    It could not be proven as rape, but it was crystal clear that both these cops were guilty of...trespassing, at least.

  7. #307
    Hazir, time for you to come clean. What exactly is your motivation for this thread? Do you want to prove that US justice is corruptible by the wealthy or special interest groups? Do you want to make accusations against our media? Do you want to push and support the French media? Do you have biases either way?

  8. #308
    Aw screw it. Ten pages mostly telling Hazir he lost on limited terms, with no group fantasy ratings.....hope you find check-out quick and easy, Hazir. Also hope you read about and connect the dots, for the biggest scam in history.....

  9. #309
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    Telling something in court is something different than confessing. You may hear this for the first time but those people in robes in the court room are not priests taking confessions. Talking about a non-crime you weren't charged with is not a confession. İn the case at hand telling about being in bed with a half naked woman would have to count as the 'İ didn't do it'
    You're missing the fact they were convicted, of multiple charges but just not rape.

    Cops are not supposed to be convicted of any crime, in the UK (I suspect its the same in the US), if someone has a criminal record they can not even apply to join the Police. If a cop gets a criminal record, then that's a violation of their contract and they can be dismissed.

  10. #310
    Not going to lie, I didn't realize so few cases in France were heard by a jury and cases were entirely managed by appointed judges. No wonder important people rarely get prosecuted.

    It's an interesting system though.

    May 28, 2011

    French System Tints View of the Strauss-Kahn Case

    By SCOTT SAYARE

    PARIS — The sexual assault case against Dominique Strauss-Kahn, which continues to crowd out much other news here, is becoming something of a civics lesson in American justice — one that has inspired both biting criticism and some respect.

    Legal experts say much of the consternation here over what many consider rough treatment in the news media and the courts is rooted in a general unfamiliarity with an American justice system that differs profoundly — in procedure, tone and philosophy — from the French model.

    “There is an aspect of pageantry that we don’t have in our country,” said Judge Marie-Blanche Régnier, who is national secretary of a French magistrates trade union.

    While the American justice system has its origins in British common law and involves ordinary citizens at almost every level, the French judicial system is rooted in the Napoleonic Code and is largely conducted behind closed doors. Suspects are typically ushered into courthouses through discreet side entrances, out of view of the public.

    State-appointed magistrates prosecute and pass judgment in most trials without the oversight of citizen jurors, who serve only in the most serious cases. In such cases, formal charges come — if they come — only after a lengthy inquest by an investigating judge, who collects evidence on behalf of both the prosecution and defense before determining if a trial is warranted.

    And in further contrast to the American system, investigating magistrates are legally bound to secrecy during an inquest.

    All too often, critics say, the French system allows cases against well-known people to go nowhere or result in reduced charges without explanation. “For the powerful,” Judge Régnier said, “there is a treatment that can be different.”

    Because the magistrates are considered impartial investigators, and are tasked with seeking the truth without bias, the defense typically does not conduct a separate investigation.

    Building their arguments primarily on evidence collected by investigating magistrates, and only rarely introducing significant evidence of their own, French lawyers seldom attack the credibility of witnesses or plaintiffs, a common tactic in American court cases.

    “We’re going to see the man who could have been the embodiment of the French left obligated — because it’s the American judicial system that wants it — to crush this woman,” Jean-Dominique Merchet, a deputy editor at the weekly magazine Marianne, said on France Info radio. “It’s going to be terrifying.”

    Much also has been made here of the 74-year sentence that Mr. Strauss-Kahn, who stepped down as the managing director of the International Monetary Fund, could face if convicted on all counts. American audiences pay little heed to such numbers. But French law puts far stricter limits on sentencing, and discrepancies between maximum terms and sentences as they are handed down are often less drastic.

    Noting that the Manhattan district attorney is elected, many French also see the influence of politics in the muscular approach taken toward Mr. Strauss-Kahn, accused by a hotel housekeeper of attacking her in his room.

    The “deliberate destruction” of Mr. Strauss-Kahn would probably be a “very winning” electoral strategy, Robert Badinter, a Socialist senator and former justice minister, said on France Inter radio.

    Bradley D. Simon, a New York defense lawyer and former federal prosecutor, said some American lawyers also disliked the “theatrics of the criminal justice system.”

    But he rejected French assertions that Mr. Strauss-Kahn had been unfairly singled out. Rather, Mr. Simon said, he is being “treated as badly as everyone else.”

    The European Court of Human Rights has repeatedly criticized the French judiciary as lacking independence.

    Writing on his blog after Mr. Strauss-Kahn was arrested, the respected Paris magistrate Philippe Bilger praised the diligence of an American system that “does not hesitate to apprehend even the most emblematic personalities with lightning speed.”

    In France, he said, such people “would have had the time to prepare their truth or their lie.”

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/29/wo.../29france.html

  11. #311
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    You're missing the fact they were convicted, of multiple charges but just not rape.

    Cops are not supposed to be convicted of any crime, in the UK (I suspect its the same in the US), if someone has a criminal record they can not even apply to join the Police. If a cop gets a criminal record, then that's a violation of their contract and they can be dismissed.
    If you would bother to read something you would know they were convicted of tresspassing. The rest was not relevant to the conviction, only to them being acquitted in the rape charge.
    Congratulations America

  12. #312
    French minister accused of rape resigns
    Two women allege he attacked then between 2007 and 2010

    PARIS — A minister accused of sexually assaulting two women he once worked with resigned Sunday in an apparent bid to spare the French government the kind of notoriety the opposition has faced since its leading man, Dominique Strauss-Kahn, was charged with attempting to rape a Manhattan hotel maid.

    A preliminary investigation was opened last week against George Tron, who served as a junior civil service minister, after two women alleged that he had attacked them between 2007 and 2010.

    One of the women said she was inspired to come forward after a housekeeper at a luxury Manhattan hotel claimed she was sexually assaulted by Strauss-Kahn, 62, a leading presidential hopeful in next year's elections for the rival Socialist Party. He resigned his post as International Monetary Fund chief after charges were filed in New York.

    Tron, 53, is a member of President Nicolas Sarkozy's conservative UMP party who joined the government just over a year ago.

    Tron's resignation appeared to be damage control as Sarkozy primps his image for a likely re-election bid in the presidential race in a year's time. The popular Strauss-Kahn had been expected to run as the Socialist candidate for president.

    Both Tron and Strauss-Kahn have denied any wrongdoing.

    No replacement for Tron was immediately announced. It was widely reported that Budget Minister Francois Baroin would absorb Tron's functions, seamlessly filling the void in a move to keep the spotlight off the government.

    A statement from Prime Minister Francois Fillon's office noted Tron has denied the allegations and praised him for acting in the "general interest."

    Tron's lawyer, Olivier Schnerb, has said the allegations against him are "unjust" and he has received instructions from his client to sue the women for "malicious slander."

    He claims the women were both fired from their jobs at the town hall of Draveil, south of Paris — where Tron has been mayor since 1995 — suggesting that they had a personal vendetta.

    A preliminary investigation for rape and sexual assault was opened Wednesday against Tron. This initial probe allows prosecutors to decide whether to pursue or drop the case.

    The two women, aged 34 and 36, have claimed that foot massages administered by Tron evolved into assault.

    Tron is adept at foot reflexology, an alternative medicine based on the notion that zones of the foot correspond to certain body parts and pressure on those points can promote health.

    The women told the newspaper Le Parisien last week that Tron assaulted them behind locked doors at the town hall.

    One said she was too ashamed to tell anyone at first, but that she spoke out after the charges were brought in New York against Strauss-Kahn.

    "When I saw that a chambermaid was capable of taking on Dominique Strauss-Kahn, I told myself I didn't have the right to keep quiet," said the woman, who was not identified by name.

    "Other women may be suffering what I suffered. I have to help them. We have to break this code of silence."

    In its online site, the newsweekly L'Express quoted Tron as vowing in his letter of resignation to "make (his) innocence known by combatting the vindictive allegations of two former colleagues," one he claimed was dismissed for allegedly pilfering funds in her care, the other for unfit behavior.
    Source

    More fuel for the fires.

    Is it normal in Europe for employers to administer foot massages to their subordinates?

  13. #313
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    If you would bother to read something you would know they were convicted of tresspassing. The rest was not relevant to the conviction, only to them being acquitted in the rape charge.
    If you would you would realise that was not the only charge and they were CONVICTED. Law makers must not be law breakers.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    Source

    More fuel for the fires.

    Is it normal in Europe for employers to administer foot massages to their subordinates?
    Not that I know of.

  14. #314
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    Source

    More fuel for the fires.

    Is it normal in Europe for employers to administer foot massages to their subordinates?
    I don't know about France, but it's not normal in Holland.
    Congratulations America

  15. #315
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    If you would you would realise that was not the only charge and they were CONVICTED. Law makers must not be law breakers.


    Not that I know of.
    Acquitted of the main charge. Outside the DA's office this should count as a heavy defeat. They tried to prove that a guy who was said to have been in bed with a semi-naked woman while on duty had raped her. And they couldn't. The connection with DSK is that it's bloody hard to prove rape.
    Congratulations America

  16. #316
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    Acquitted of the main charge. Outside the DA's office this should count as a heavy defeat. They tried to prove that a guy who was said to have been in bed with a semi-naked woman while on duty had raped her. And they couldn't. The connection with DSK is that it's bloody hard to prove rape.
    Indeed it is hard to prove rape, which doesn't mean we shouldn't try if we have reasonable grounds.

    However that has no bearing on whether they should lose their jobs or not. They were convicted of crimes, which means they can not be cops. Criminals can't be cops, cops can't be criminals.

  17. #317
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Indeed it is hard to prove rape, which doesn't mean we shouldn't try if we have reasonable grounds.

    However that has no bearing on whether they should lose their jobs or not. They were convicted of crimes, which means they can not be cops. Criminals can't be cops, cops can't be criminals.
    It sounds so much better if you use the wide term 'crime' doesn't it? The real conviction was for 'official misconduct misdemeanors' i.e. trespassing.

    But I guess we can count you (and GGT) with the people who know better than the jury so these guys are really guilty as hell rapists. Funny they didn't get 25 years in prison. It boggles the mind doesn't it?

    Which brings me back to my original question: 'are all cops in the US held to such high standards that they are sacked for trespassing?' Or are only the ones that are accused of rape the subject of this special treatment?
    Congratulations America

  18. #318
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    It sounds so much better if you use the wide term 'crime' doesn't it? The real conviction was for 'official misconduct misdemeanors' i.e. trespassing.

    But I guess we can count you (and GGT) with the people who know better than the jury so these guys are really guilty as hell rapists. Funny they didn't get 25 years in prison. It boggles the mind doesn't it?

    Which brings me back to my original question: 'are all cops in the US held to such high standards that they are sacked for trespassing?' Or are only the ones that are accused of rape the subject of this special treatment?
    I should hope all cops are held to high standards.

  19. #319
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    I should hope all cops are held to high standards.
    Still doesn't answer my question if every cop found guilty of tresspassing is fired.
    Congratulations America

  20. #320
    I guess it would depend on how corrupt a county/city system is, but I'm sure if a cop is caught doing something illegal, especially while ON DUTY!, then I would hope that they would be fired.

    If anything, this thread has really been enlightening; apparently women, especially lowly poor ones, should just keep their mouths shut and let powerful men do as they please to them. At least that's how Europeans feel? I always thought they were so much more equal rights than Americans could be.

  21. #321
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    Still doesn't answer my question if every cop found guilty of tresspassing is fired.
    I hope so.

    Catgrrl, please don't prejudice all Europeans with Hazir. Hazir may claim to speak for Europe - he does not.

  22. #322
    Quote Originally Posted by Catgrrl View Post
    If anything, this thread has really been enlightening; apparently women, especially lowly poor ones, should just keep their mouths shut and let powerful men do as they please to them. At least that's how Europeans feel? I always thought they were so much more equal rights than Americans could be.
    I can't speak for France, but we have the case "Karl Hirschmann" a billionaire that will face court because of sexual abuse (no here this is not the same as rape). And so far his billions didn't save him from the courts in any way.
    "Wer Visionen hat, sollte zum Arzt gehen." - Helmut Schmidt

  23. #323
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catgrrl View Post
    I guess it would depend on how corrupt a county/city system is, but I'm sure if a cop is caught doing something illegal, especially while ON DUTY!, then I would hope that they would be fired.

    If anything, this thread has really been enlightening; apparently women, especially lowly poor ones, should just keep their mouths shut and let powerful men do as they please to them. At least that's how Europeans feel? I always thought they were so much more equal rights than Americans could be.
    Don't be silly, first of all it's definately not 'Europeans' and it's not even how 'the French' think. We don't really know what 'Europeans' think in this matter at all. Some French elitist idiots were like 'a man that powerfull can't be guilty of rape, and that's it'. But all in all they are a tiny minority.

    I sure hope you're not as dumb as Randblade to think that I agree in the least with those French elitists.
    Congratulations America

  24. #324
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    It sounds so much better if you use the wide term 'crime' doesn't it? The real conviction was for 'official misconduct misdemeanors' i.e. trespassing.

    But I guess we can count you (and GGT) with the people who know better than the jury so these guys are really guilty as hell rapists. Funny they didn't get 25 years in prison. It boggles the mind doesn't it?

    Which brings me back to my original question: 'are all cops in the US held to such high standards that they are sacked for trespassing?' Or are only the ones that are accused of rape the subject of this special treatment?
    WTF is wrong with you? Nowhere did I (or Rand) say the cops were guilty rapists, or that we know better than the jury. By his own testimony, one cop was lying in bed with a half-naked woman, while on duty. They were convicted of criminal trespass, not a parking ticket or jay-walking. They were fired for committing assault while on-duty, and for violating their oath to protect and serve the public.

    No one here knows the rules in all 50 states for police 'conduct unbecoming', or the many justifiable termination offenses. Not even you. But it's pretty clear those men lost their privilege to continue being on the police force.

  25. #325
    I think he's saying that testimony/admission doesn't count
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  26. #326
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    I think he's saying that testimony/admission doesn't count
    Ummm... it does in a US Court of law though. Ain't that why we have the 5th over here?

    And why are we arguing this? If a cop commits and admits (or proven to have done) to any boo boo they can lose their job, (just like anyone else) AND they are held to a higher standard to prevent even the appearance of a cover up.
    Brevior saltare cum deformibus viris est vita

  27. #327
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    I think he's saying that testimony/admission doesn't count
    I am saying that exonerating circumstances don't count as proof for a crime you were not charged with. And in this case they didn't even led to the jury finding them guilty of the rape.
    Congratulations America

  28. #328
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veldan Rath View Post
    Ummm... it does in a US Court of law though. Ain't that why we have the 5th over here?

    And why are we arguing this? If a cop commits and admits (or proven to have done) to any boo boo they can lose their job, (just like anyone else) AND they are held to a higher standard to prevent even the appearance of a cover up.
    You noticed the coincidence that they were not fired after the cuddle story came out but after they were convicted of trespassing? Technically, and I will admit that means only technically, they were fired for trespassing and nothing else.
    Last edited by Hazir; 06-01-2011 at 08:16 AM.
    Congratulations America

  29. #329
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    WTF is wrong with you? Nowhere did I (or Rand) say the cops were guilty rapists, or that we know better than the jury. By his own testimony, one cop was lying in bed with a half-naked woman, while on duty. They were convicted of criminal trespass, not a parking ticket or jay-walking. They were fired for committing assault while on-duty, and for violating their oath to protect and serve the public.

    No one here knows the rules in all 50 states for police 'conduct unbecoming', or the many justifiable termination offenses. Not even you. But it's pretty clear those men lost their privilege to continue being on the police force.
    They were fired for trespassing, if the 'naked' incident was the reason for dismissal they could have been sacked months before.

    Except of course that people like you - who are the bane of any legal system - really think they should be treated as rapists who got away with it, but who 'thank God', still can be screwed over on a technicality.
    Congratulations America

  30. #330
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    They were fired for trespassing, if the 'naked' incident was the reason for dismissal they could have been sacked months before.

    Except of course that people like you - who are the bane of any legal system - really think they should be treated as rapists who got away with it, but who 'thank God', still can be screwed over on a technicality.
    Again, WTF is wrong with you? Are you just trolling?

    If you know so much about the US legal system, and the NYPD internal operations, you should have figured out why they were placed on administrative leave pending outcome of a trial. And it's got nothing to do with screwing them over with a technicality.

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