It's planned obsolescence, wiggin. For the same reason, we can't repair small appliances (like toasters or microwaves) or larger appliances (like washing machines) for less cost than buying a new replacement. Yay?
It's planned obsolescence, wiggin. For the same reason, we can't repair small appliances (like toasters or microwaves) or larger appliances (like washing machines) for less cost than buying a new replacement. Yay?
Except the planned lifetime, based on cell phone reimbursement plans, is 24 months. If my phone broke irreversibly after 3 years I wouldn't care too much.Originally Posted by GGT
Really? Even if you paid $300 for that phone you wouldn't care too much if it broke after 3 years? Gosh, maybe I don't want to know what you think is a reasonable price to pay for a washing machine.
Consumer electronics are disposable for the most part; by the time it's 3 years later, the same quality device is essentially free - would you have a problem with updating your computer every 3 years? (Exceptions abound of course - e.g. televisions, which can easily last for decades, though even there power/quality vs. cost has a similar trajectory.)Really? Even if you paid $300 for that phone you wouldn't care too much if it broke after 3 years? Gosh, maybe I don't want to know what you think is a reasonable price to pay for a washing machine.
And please, phones cost a lot more than $300.
It's not unreasonable to "update" a computer every 3 years.....but that shouldn't mean replacing the entire machine.
I'm curious how you view "consumer electronics" in the laundry category, and how much you'd pay for a HE washer/dryer with electronic controls?
BTW, I think it's outrageous that "phones" can cost more than $300 in the first place. Those aren't "phones", but small computers, which makes the price point an entirely different thing. God help us all if washer/dryers take on the computer/tech capabilities of smart phones, and we're so ready to buy the newest machine, made in China....even if it costs $900. Oops, that's already happened.
Last edited by GGT; 02-21-2014 at 05:15 AM.
I've got some serious reservations about 3 year old tech being essentially free. Maybe the bottom of the barrel, no name, knock off crap, maybe. But tech is holding its worth a lot better now than it was a decade ago.
And phones can cost most than $300, but they don't have to. Just like a car can cost more than 50 grand. My Nokia 521 wasn't anywhere near $300 and you can get them unlocked on amazon for under a 100. Hell most of the higher end lumias cost less than $300 without contract.
"In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."
anyway, the original reason I was planning to post in this thread today.
I've got a windows phone, windows laptops and computers, and now I have 50gb of Onedrive cloud storage. Except I have no reason to use it. It makes me feel like I'm missing the point of this cloud storage idea to have all these supported and connected devices and no reason to use the cloud that they all connect to.
"In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."
Reasonable price for a washing machine is as related to this as a reasonable price for a sandwichReally? Even if you paid $300 for that phone you wouldn't care too much if it broke after 3 years? Gosh, maybe I don't want to know what you think is a reasonable price to pay for a washing machine.My phone, if it breaks after three years, I'd be sad - but not care that much. It's something you use heavily, carry around, plus after three years it's likely to be somewhat outdated anyway.
Keep on keepin' the beat alive!
There's precious little you can update in a laptop, and very few people have desktops any more. Case in point: my laptop is 2.5 years old and the battery is about to die. Is it worth it to spend over $100 on a new battery, or should I just get a new laptop? In my case, since I'd need pretty high specs to run my programs for work (and I'm cheap), I'll probably shell out for the battery and update the laptop in another 1.5-2 years. But if it was purely a personal machine? I'd just drop another $500 and get an entirely new computer.
That's absurd; washer/dryers are hardly consumer electronics. They're appliances, and those should last indefinitely with reasonable maintenance. I'm talking about the likes of MP3 players, smartphones, computers, tablets, etc. Their batteries don't last too long, and their specs are continually being superceded by significant margins at the same or lower price points.I'm curious how you view "consumer electronics" in the laundry category, and how much you'd pay for a HE washer/dryer with electronic controls?
So? We all agree that smartphones are more than just phones, and that they cost a lot of money.BTW, I think it's outrageous that "phones" can cost more than $300 in the first place. Those aren't "phones", but small computers, which makes the price point an entirely different thing.
I admit to using a bit of hyperbole earlier, but I think we'd both agree that older technology - easily within a 3 year grace period - is MUCH cheaper than the newest 'standard' device. Just look at the original iPhone 4 - it's just about 3 years old, and you can't even purchase it any more (other than refurbished models). They've gotten several iterations past that, with an accompanying variation in price point. Within 3 years, I can generally discard my old device and get a better one for MUCH cheaper than I paid for the first device. Why get worked up over losing a device in such circumstances?
It's when a device fails twice in less than a year and a half that I get upset.
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_no...rds=iphone%204
But this has pretty much everything to do with Apple's business model and very little to do with 3 year old tech being worthless. I also question being able to go bigger and better at a much cheaper rate. The only thing that does that is extremely new tech, like bluray players. These incremental upgrades; printers, cell phones, computers, TVs, no they don't do that within a 3 year window.
Out of the 5 main components. CPU, motherboard, RAM, Harddrive, and battery, A vast majority of laptops allow you to change out at least 3 of those.
Last edited by Ominous Gamer; 02-21-2014 at 05:58 PM.
"In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."
(1) look at the reviews, it looks like it ain't new.
(2) Apple isn't manufacturing them anymore (and haven't been for some time), so you can only get people either pawning off used stuff or clearing our inventory. Ditto for the iPhone 5, I believe.
I never said 3 year old tech was worthless, just that it was so much inferior and cheaper than the newest standard that it's generally not worth getting upset about if it fails on you.But this has pretty much everything to do with Apple's business model and very little to do with 3 year old tech being worthless. I also question being able to go bigger and better at a much cheaper rate. The only thing that does that is extremely new tech, like bluray players. These incremental upgrades; printers, cell phones, computers, TVs, no they don't do that within a 3 year window.
Regardless, let's take the iPhone 4 as an example. In 2011, an iPhone 4 with 8 GB was $550 unlocked. Today, an 8 GB 4S is $450 unlocked. I'm using Apple as an example just because it's a good apples to apples comparison (heh), but the same trend applies across the board. Is the iPhone 4 useless? Absolutely not. But if you can replace it with something better for a significantly reduced price, why get upset if it fails after a while?
I have acknowledged that there are exceptions to the rule - for example, I have a 5 year old television that I see no need to replace for the foreseeable future (10 years? 20?). I view printers are largely disposable since they're generally cheap to free (you pay for them with the ink), but I certainly don't get a new one unless the old one is irretrievably broken - no one cares about 'quality' in a printer anyways, since if you need something good you'll go to a professional anyhow. Computers and cell phones, though, I think fall into the broad category of rapidly obsolescing electronics, and after a few years it's no big tragedy if they fail.
And yet there's normally a limited amount you can do with the CPU and motherboard - they're nowhere near as exchangeable as in a desktop since you're stuck with certain form factors and compatibility problems. Sure, you normally have some (limited) RAM and HD upgrade capability, and everyone swaps out their batteries, but it's nothing like the complete rebuild you can do on a CPU. It's fiendishly difficult to replace (let alone upgrade!) something like a screen on a laptop, when it's easy-peasy on a desktop. Even getting to something like the motherboard or CPU is quite challenging. Let's not even get into something like graphics cards or wireOut of the 5 main components. CPU, motherboard, RAM, Harddrive, and battery, A vast majority of laptops allow you to change out at least 3 of those.
The point is that even now, there's limited modularity in many laptops - because of size and form factor constraints, many laptops don't leave you much in the way of upgrade options. Regardless, it's become so commoditized that it's not really a big expense any more. I'm not bothered with replacing a computer every few years.
I linked to multiple models...
Did you just compare the launch price of a iphone 4 8gb (which was released several months after the 4 was launched, beside a $650 4S) to the current price of the iphone 4S? Thats not very apples to apples. Besides this comparison only works once. Since you went from launch price to current price, your next upgrade will be current price to current price (at best).Regardless, let's take the iPhone 4 as an example. In 2011, an iPhone 4 with 8 GB was $550 unlocked. Today, an 8 GB 4S is $450 unlocked. I'm using Apple as an example just because it's a good apples to apples comparison (heh), but the same trend applies across the board. Is the iPhone 4 useless? Absolutely not. But if you can replace it with something better for a significantly reduced price, why get upset if it fails after a while?
Consumer electronics are disposable for the most part; by the time it's 3 years later, the same quality device is essentially free
Last edited by Ominous Gamer; 02-21-2014 at 08:18 PM.
"In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."
Like I said...planned obsolescence. I'm somewhat disturbed by wiggin thinking modern laundry appliances aren't consumer electronics, or that they should last indefinitely with proper maintenance.
And I'm pretty sure I can use a washing machine created a decade ago and not have to worry about it being obsolete in every way imaginable...
Hope is the denial of reality
Washing machines made 20 years ago, with manual technologies, are still working. The ones made ten years ago, with digital components, not so much. Try again.
Now go find a 20-year phone or computer that does what modern consumers want those technologies to do.
Hope is the denial of reality
Well, I have a 50 year old phone that still works quite well. But I don't expect it to act like a computer. And I don't really expect my washing machine to act like a computer or smart phone, either. But I do expect it will work longer than 3 years without needing to be replaced.
edit: "modern" phones have batteries that routinely fail, but my land-line phone works using a 50 year old appliance.
Then stick to products in dying industries that no longer see a point to rapid technological improvement.
Hope is the denial of reality
Well if you don't use the new functions, you'd be stupid to pay through the nose for the new fancy versions, you don't have to buy them. You can still buy (plenty) phones without batteries for at home. But it's not very honest to compare that to an iPhone, they're entirely different products. For example, I couldn't be posting this using your phone while in a train in another country while listening to music on spotify.
Keep on keepin' the beat alive!
Okay, so I discovered that 3 experiments I had looked at for my pupils required an UV lamp (wavelength specific (254 nm & 366 nm)).
Granted, the narrow wavelength requirements might make it a bit more expensive, but shouldn't be too dire.
Until I looked into the catalogue of one of our suppliers. 450€ for a 4W UV light.
Fuck me.
When the stars threw down their spears
And watered heaven with their tears:
Did he smile his work to see?
Did he who made the lamb make thee?
while the fax machine may be one of the few "tech pieces" that hasn't changed in 20 years, 10 years ago I could have done this on my ngage.
"In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."
I never knew those were so expensive. I actually have two of those laying around - they're fairly old, and the 254 nm lamp flickers a bit (not sure if the problem is with the lamp, or the ballast) on one of them, and I'm not quite sure if the other wavelength is 366 (definitely 360-something) but they work. We use those at work to visualize spots on TLCs, and they were being replaced by a newer model, I was allowed take them for myself, since they were going to be disposed of anyway.
Carthāgō dēlenda est
Yeah, they're moderately pricey depending on the intensity required. I used to work in a lab that did UV-driven radical polymerizations, and we blew through a lot of lamps. We found that the 'cheapest' lamps for the 365 nm range were higher end tanning bulbs - they often peaked right around 365 and were relatively inexpensive. I don't remember the wattage, though; we only cared about intensity at a specific distance. 254 nm is a bit tougher to find cheaply, as it has little consumer use; all of the equipment I've used at that wavelength has been specifically for industry/clinic/research and has been very expensive.
If you can get away with a not-so-tight wavelength, tanning bulbs might help you on the 365 nm end. You can probably get an emission profile from the manufacturer.
Well, I found handheld lamps for 200€ from other (non-school suppliers). Same Wattage, just battery-driven.
I don't quite see where the 250€ markup comes from.
When the stars threw down their spears
And watered heaven with their tears:
Did he smile his work to see?
Did he who made the lamb make thee?
Well, that's what I meant. You're not really using a phone but a portable computer. It makes sense to spend hundreds of dollars for that technology....but I don't think it makes sense to replace it every 3 years, whether it's because a component failed or the latest upgrades only work on newest models.
But consumers are funny that way. They'll even stand in line every time a new version iPhone comes out, even though the changes aren't very dramatic (and often cosmetic). That'd be like people replacing their W/D every year, just to get the latest designer color or special feature that doesn't really 'pay' for itself in functionality.
While listening to Spotify? :P
Might be that the other lamps are meant for lab use and have a better defined, more constant spectrum, better calibrated, etc. Or might just be an expensive company
W/D? If you are still talking about washing machines/dryers, that's still a bad comparison, improvements in phones are bigger than in washing machines (has there even been a significant improvement there in the past 10 years?). Plus, especially with iPhones, it's fashion accessoires as well, which is why people stand in line (don't forget the vast majority doesn't do that, and a large part also waits until it drops in price).
And don't forget the other portable computers (laptops), if you don't just use them as a mobile computer for your couch but actually drag them everywhere, rarely live properly past 5 years and usually start showing a decrease in functionality after 2/3 years, especially the cheaper laptops (which are in the price range of a phone). Writeoff for computers is three years, usually.
Anyway, speaking of phones, my xperia had an android update and it changed the keyboard functionality in a way I do not like, ánd it forgot all my saved words.
Keep on keepin' the beat alive!
It's not a bad comparison for "consumer services", or consumer expectations. Most US Americans expect a certain degree of laundry services, whether at home or off-site laundromats. As a general rule, people who don't have a W/D in their homes expect to trek their dirty laundry to a laundro-mat. That's like a service provider.
My washing machine failed about a week ago. The rubber gasket seal was cracked and leaking. Replacing it would cost more than getting a new machine (planned obsolescence).
Just because something is used by consumers does not make it equal. I honestly don't understand a thing of your post here. Because people use a phone, and people use a washing machine, it's equal?
Keep on keepin' the beat alive!
I'm off of work all this week... and just caught a cold. /rage
I'm stupid, I just realised I've been using the wrong brand particles for a week. I took the wrong one the first time, and subsequent times I just didn't check but took the same vial. Luckily they were the same particles and the same concentration, just a different brand, but it could explain some of the problems we've been having.
I hate myself right now...
Keep on keepin' the beat alive!
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