It doesn't seem that Putin cares much about his image abroad, and his image in Russia is better than ever. The Russian media does everything to blame the Ukraine for this.Originally Posted by GGT
It doesn't seem that Putin cares much about his image abroad, and his image in Russia is better than ever. The Russian media does everything to blame the Ukraine for this.
"Wer Visionen hat, sollte zum Arzt gehen." - Helmut Schmidt
Let's see how popular he stays once the new rounds of sanctions is debated in the EU. Also it seems that public opninion in Russia isn't fooled that easily. Most people who Dutch journalists talk with think that most likely this is the responsability of the rebels who are seen as a bunch of wankers, with Putin in the role of somebody who got in too deep without an exit strategy.
Congratulations America
How will that change his popularity. He will just blame any consequences on the West.
"Wer Visionen hat, sollte zum Arzt gehen." - Helmut Schmidt
His popularity is based on the fact that he makes Russia look on top again, at no cost. Once real sanctions ar imposed, the no cost side falls away and Russians will realise they don't want to pay for a bunch of wankers in eastern Ukraine.
Congratulations America
And yet Russian support for a full-out invasion of Ukraine has increased from virtually nothing to over 40% since the Russian propaganda machine started.
Hope is the denial of reality
Are you sure that statistic was not produced by the Р.п.м.??
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
It's from a pretty reliable agency.
Hope is the denial of reality
Just got a message on our intranet that one of my collegues was in MH17 with her family. Not really a big surprise given the number of people that work in this organisation.
Congratulations America
Deepest regrets, Hazir. Was it anyone you knew personally?
The light that once I thought compassion still casting shadows in your action
The words you shared were cold transactions that bring me to curse what you've done
When you're up there absorbed in greatness with such success you've grown complacent
I hope you scorch your many faces when you fly too close to the sun
Sorry to hear that Hazir
Hazir, I'm very sorry to hear that. Hopefully their remains and effects can be brought home soon.
Netherlands is investigating the incident as a potential war crime. Doesn't it need to be intentional for it to be a war crime?
Firing rockets without due care and attention?
The light that once I thought compassion still casting shadows in your action
The words you shared were cold transactions that bring me to curse what you've done
When you're up there absorbed in greatness with such success you've grown complacent
I hope you scorch your many faces when you fly too close to the sun
Negligence might still be considered a war crime. And the cover-up seems pretty intentional to me.
Hope is the denial of reality
A war crime is whatever you can get states to say is a war crime
Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"
War crimes often fall under one of two categories: distinction and proportionality. Distinction probably applies in this case - failing to distinguish between civilian and military targets (in this case, planes). Proportionality, less so.
A colleague of mine just posted a link to a conspiracy theory on her Facebook page. Due to the fact that I'll have to work with that women for some time, I'm not touching that one with a 9 feet pole.
I think I'll opt to hide her postings instead - the last one I saw was also borderline conspirational (though it was hidden better: The main argument was one I agreed with as well so that I missed the undercurrents at first glance).
Well, it happened during a sort-of civil war and they definitely wanted to shoot down an airplane. Doesn't really matter that they didn't hit the one they wanted.
When the stars threw down their spears
And watered heaven with their tears:
Did he smile his work to see?
Did he who made the lamb make thee?
That too.
The light that once I thought compassion still casting shadows in your action
The words you shared were cold transactions that bring me to curse what you've done
When you're up there absorbed in greatness with such success you've grown complacent
I hope you scorch your many faces when you fly too close to the sun
Just heard from my colleague his kids were in class with and friends with a family with four kids that was on the plane
Keep on keepin' the beat alive!
I read that given that there were so many Dutch fatalities that statistically almost everyone in the Netherlands will be connected to someone who died in some way
My dad worked for a long time for an international Anglo-Dutch company with offices in Malaysia and said he used to take that flight very regularly. Though he no longer works there he's convinced there'll have been at least a few people from that company on the flight.
Well, connected.. I mean, friends of the kids of a colleague isn't exactly connected to me anymore. But yeah, 200 people from all over the country, you're bound to at least know somebody who knows somebody who was on that plane.
Keep on keepin' the beat alive!
No, she was working at a different location, same department though.
About the war crime thing; I think it's going to be quite hard, with the cover up about who actually fired the missile in combination that I am pretty certain that the chain of command can't be really held accountable to lack of an actual command to down a civilian airliner.
Something interesting was pointed out on TV earlier today; some bodies might give up shrapnel giving definite proof that the plane was hit by a missile (not that I don't already think that).
BTW, if I wouldn't know better I could have sworn a Dutch plane was shot out of the air.
Congratulations America
What a shame but not such a surprise the vaunted sanctions have been announced and are a slap on the wrist. France won't even cancel the scheduled sale of warships to Russia as it'll cost them money to cancel the order. Even a quasi-Dutch plane being attacked isn't enough to get certain countries to stand up to Russia.
Hope is the denial of reality
Isn't Europe having trouble "leading" the sanction effort because their individual economies are tied to Russian energy resources and financial investments, and they don't want to fall into deeper recession? If any one nation is going to sanction doing business with Russia...then will every country follow suit in important ways (including British banks/financiers *or arms deals in Loki's link*)?
Someone has to move first to break the vicious chain if it can't be done jointly or cooperatively. Sadly ironic since Putin wanted to force Ukraine to move away from the EU and toward Russia, but the EU can't get its act together. btw I'm under the impression that final EU sanctions won't be published until Thursday, so we'll see.
I think it's a bit more complicated than that, even though I agree with the emotion. Delivering weapons to Russia at the moment indeed is the wrong signal. On the other hand, as disgusting as the thought is, we need the cooperation of the very same people we are considering imposing sanctions on. That demands a modicum of caution already. But more importantly, what we want is to make Putin feel destabilizing a neighbouring country comes at a high cost, but we also don't want to destroy the entire Russian economy. We also want to make certain that the Chinese don't come to the rescue of the Russians because we lost reason in our sanctions.
Finally, let's not forget that both UK and The Netherlands only recently moved from the column of sanction doves to sanction hawks.
Congratulations America
Yeah, exactly. And we won't even get into the relationship between Russian kleptocrats and the City. No one comes out of this smelling of roses, really.
The light that once I thought compassion still casting shadows in your action
The words you shared were cold transactions that bring me to curse what you've done
When you're up there absorbed in greatness with such success you've grown complacent
I hope you scorch your many faces when you fly too close to the sun
This has gone from being a crisis at our very back door to a crisis that has killed over a hundred Dutch and a dozen Brits. That should change things. Its worth noting that the ex-USSR new-EU member states are the most hawkish. They know first hand how serious a threat Russia is. We ought to do more.
Nothing we are doing comes remotely close to a medium cost let alone destroying the entire Russian economy. There must be a level between a slap on the wrist and destroying their economy. An arms blockade seems a very basic first step - and that includes any UK deals.I think it's a bit more complicated than that, even though I agree with the emotion. Delivering weapons to Russia at the moment indeed is the wrong signal. On the other hand, as disgusting as the thought is, we need the cooperation of the very same people we are considering imposing sanctions on. That demands a modicum of caution already. But more importantly, what we want is to make Putin feel destabilizing a neighbouring country comes at a high cost, but we also don't want to destroy the entire Russian economy. We also want to make certain that the Chinese don't come to the rescue of the Russians because we lost reason in our sanctions.
Agreed completely.
Depends which ones. Bulgaria and Romania are marginally pro-Russian. Slovakia is in that direction as well. Haven't heard anything about the Czechs. The only ones that are clearly against Russian aggression are Poland and the Baltics, and they're not exactly doing much to hurt Russia either.
Destroying the Russian economy is the only way you get Putin and his supporters to rethink their rather dangerous domestic and foreign policy.
Hope is the denial of reality
Destroying the economy of a nuclear power is not a good idea. You might find yourself longing back for the good old times when a 'reasonable KGB thug like Putin'was running the show.
Congratulations America
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