Christian Marine Makes World Better Place

[Aimless]

More for Lewk to ponder:

He who mocks the poor shows contempt for their Maker; whoever gloats over disaster will not go unpunished.

oh no we're heading towards a bible-off...!

[CitizenCain]

Two distinct issues.

1: How is Lewk's view back up by a quote from Christ [no Ian]

A view I don't share and have avoided commenting on? In fact, I said: "Meh, you could argue that ex-Marine boy's attitude is just as unchristian as Lewk's," which seems to pretty plainly state that I don't think Lewk's views are supportable as Christian (or Christ-like).

So yeah, how odd of me not to provide supporting citations for a position I oppose...

[GGT]

I miss Miang, too. Plus many other members that disappeared.

This is a typical Lewk thread agenda: trolling for Christians and gun owners, practicing vigil ante 'justice' to rid the US of scumbag criminals, saving time and energy (and tax dollars) from police enforcement or court trials. Shoot 'em in the back, shoot 'em any way you can....it's faster than Frying 'em. He liked this story in particular, because the guy was also an older man and ex-marine.

[Steely Glint]

They guy was likely justified in running down the guy, who was shooting at him, and his remorse afterwards shows him to be a far better man the Lewkowski will ever be, especially as, despite his bluster, I seriously doubt Lewk has the physical courage to actually confront a criminal, let alone an armed one.

[Lewkowski]

They guy was likely justified in running down the guy, who was shooting at him, and his remorse afterwards shows him to be a far better man the Lewkowski will ever be, especially as, despite his bluster, I seriously doubt Lewk has the physical courage to actually confront a criminal, let alone an armed one.

I probably would not go chasing someone who is armed. That just shows you how much courage this guy had.

[Loki]

Depends, I'd say close to zero for some so-called Christians. Which is why I specifically inquired about a quote from Christ himself.

So you're not really referring to Christianity; you're referring to people who only follow Christ. Christianity hasn't meant that for a good 1900 years.

[Timbuk2]

In an act of courage this senior citizen risked his own life in order to protect the community from violence. He should be held up as an example of what good men do. Most people wouldn't have that kind of fortitude and bravery. But then again most people don't become Marines!

Heh. I highly doubt that the old fella was thinking of 'protecting the community from violence'.

I would think it far more likely he was in the throes of an angry red mist, high on adrenaline, enacting his marine-tuned instincts, and acting entirely in the heat of the moment.

Shouldn't think there were any carefully-reasoned cognitive thoughts going on there, concerning the community or anyone else.

Makes for an interesting story though. Will be curious to see what the courts make of it.

[GGT]

The old man should have put his specs on first, before opening the door. Might have avoided his surprised reaction and adrenaline-pumping car chase to begin with. Isn't that a no-brainer? Especially since he expressed remorse afterward, and said losing the $800 wasn't worth taking a human life....

Sounds like something an atheist non-marine senior might also say, after the fight-or-flight adrenaline has worn off, and there's a dead man lying in the street or under their car. Instead of a live thief for the police to pursue.

[Aimless]

The next robber will prolly shoot the next old man so there's no-one to run him down.

I'm always surprised when I'm reminded of just how decent Christianity can be. I hope my fellow atheists teach their kids not to gloat and take pleasure in misfortune

[GGT]

Jesus Christ was a very decent and compassionate person. He didn't judge prostitutes, lepers, beggars or petty thieves. (He didn't appreciate money-counting in temples or usury, though.) He also said render unto Caesar what is his....so Jesus wasn't anti-government or anti-tax. He'd probably be considered a SSSocialist by today's standards. There's a high degree of irony there.

Christianity, on the other hand, has so many sects, denominations and off-shoots, translations, interpretations, ministers and preachers....Old Testament, New Testament, King James, Church of England, Catholic or Protestant, Greek Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox, Moravian, Anabaptists, New Age, literal or metaphorical......Christ is often lost in all the politics of faith.

It really bothers me to see people like Lewk twist and debase Christ and Christianity, in order to serve his own selfish purposes. But he also butchers the King's English, and sees no problem there either....so, yeah.

[Aimless]

He also said render unto Caesar what is his....so Jesus wasn't anti-government or anti-tax.

Eh, I've seen different conflicting interpretations of that passage.

[GGT]

Eh, I've seen different conflicting interpretations of that passage.

That's the point, right? Different and conflicting interpretations. Then using Jesus Christ as the lone figure and symbol of dissecting beliefs. Another use of the cross, BTW.

[CitizenCain]

He'd probably be considered a SSSocialist by today's standards. There's a high degree of irony there.

Yeah, maybe if one ignores any semblance of reality or intellectual honesty.

Socialists advocate the redistribution of wealth through forcible compulsion. Jesus advocated charity... not forcibly taking people's money. There is an important distinction between voluntarily giving your money to help the needy, and have it forcibly taken from you under that guise. You know, like "tax collectors" do. And what does the Bible have to say about "tax collectors?"

[RandBlade]

And what does the Bible have to say about "tax collectors?"

And he said unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which be Caesar's

[GGT]

Yeah, maybe if one ignores any semblance of reality or intellectual honesty.

Socialists advocate the redistribution of wealth through forcible compulsion. Jesus advocated charity... not forcibly taking people's money. There is an important distinction between voluntarily giving your money to help the needy, and have it forcibly taken from you under that guise. You know, like "tax collectors" do. And what does the Bible have to say about "tax collectors?"

Guilt is just as "forcible" as the tax man, grasshopper.

[Veldan Rath]

Guilt is just as "forcible" as the tax man, grasshopper.

Charity = Guilt???

Really?

[CitizenCain]

And he said unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which be Caesar's

No, that's what the Bible has to say about coins with an image of Caesar on them. That discussion had nothing to do with tax collectors.

Charity = Guilt???

Really?

Yup, seems so. Remember, you heard it here first!

[Aimless]

Yeah, maybe if one ignores any semblance of reality or intellectual honesty.

Socialists advocate the redistribution of wealth through forcible compulsion. Jesus advocated charity... not forcibly taking people's money. There is an important distinction between voluntarily giving your money to help the needy, and have it forcibly taken from you under that guise. You know, like "tax collectors" do. And what does the Bible have to say about "tax collectors?"

Well, what does the Bible say about submitting to the authority of rulers/governments and to their laws?

[CitizenCain]

That Yahweh doesn't give a shit, actually.

[GGT]

Charity = Guilt???

Really?

Depends on church doctrine and dogma. Catholics are known to be heavily influenced by guilt. Forgiveness was conditional. They used to be required to pay alms for forgiveness of sins, pay penance for redemption by reciting rosary bead prayers, ask for absolution by a priest. Special booths were created for that purpose.

After the Reformation, and Luther introduced the concept of Gods' Grace.....well, that's when Protestants split from Roman Catholics. Even today, though, Protestants (and maybe Lutherans in particular) feel a duty to feed the hungry, tend the sick, help the poor. Sharing time, talent, and treasure.

However, none of this is unique to any religion or its adherents. Atheists and Agnostics also feel a duty to their fellow man, their neighbors and communities. The Golden Rule doesn't have exclusive rights to any group.

[Aimless]

"Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God."

"Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves."

"Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor."

An anti-authoritarian religion wouldn't get very far.

[Veldan Rath]

Duty = Guilt?

I give to charity (Goodwill mostly) and neither out of duty or guilt...so try again.

[Nessus]

So you're not really referring to Christianity; you're referring to people who only follow Christ. Christianity hasn't meant that for a good 1900 years.

It's a bit unfair to talk of a monolithic Christianity before the council of Nicaea, but certainly a majority has taken influence from non-Jesus sources over those 1900 years.

[CitizenCain]

An anti-authoritarian religion wouldn't get very far.

Based on statements about the Judaic theocracy and (later) authorities who rule on behalf of God, and provide services to the governed. Sorry, but so not applicable today, at least not over here.

The closest you can get is with that third quote, with submitting as a necessary action to avoid punishment. I can achieve the same end (not getting punished) by using my brain, and not getting caught.

[Loki]

It's a bit unfair to talk of a monolithic Christianity before the council of Nicaea, but certainly a majority has taken influence from non-Jesus sources over those 1900 years.

I'm not claiming there was or is a single Christianity; I am claiming that no major school of thought within Christianity within the last 1900 years based their dogma primarily on Christ's teachings.

[RandBlade]

I'm not claiming there was or is a single Christianity; I am claiming that no major school of thought within Christianity within the last 1900 years based their dogma primarily on Christ's teachings.

Which was kind of my point, though they all claim to believe in Christ if you ask them to back up their beliefs then its just whatever they really wanted to believe anyway and any quotes (if there are any) never have anything that was really to do with Christ.

I again challenge anyone, but especially Lewk, to find anything at all from Christ that would justify this OP.

[Loki]

They believe in Christ, among many other things.

[RandBlade]

Just not what Christ says or believed in himself.

[Enoch the Red]

Guilt is just as "forcible" as the tax man, grasshopper.

This is ridiculous GGT, even for you.

[RandBlade]

Not that unreasonable actually - especially biblically. Go back and a tithe was in many cultures about as optional as taxes. Much of what government does now, religion did. Only by confusing eras would you not reasonably equate the two.