Well said.Originally Posted by Illusions
Since safety seems to come foremost for most (and is the reason staff aren't allowed to tackle thieves) it is worth noting that from the moment somebody tries to steal then people are getting put in danger. Stopping a thief is not just about the value of the stolen item but the emotional trauma that those who are stolen from undergo and the danger that future victims of that thief will be in danger of.
I've yet to hear that someone undergoes an "emotional trauma" when a $1 item is stolen.
Annoying? Sure. Trauma? Nope.
Due to the fact that there have been successful lawsuits against contracts which have hidden away facts in pages-long legalese, I'm pretty sure that having a vast and deep handbook wouldn't win a company any cookies if they don't actually train their employees. At least over here in Germany.
When the stars threw down their spears
And watered heaven with their tears:
Did he smile his work to see?
Did he who made the lamb make thee?
That says more of your ignorance than the trauma victims of crime go through.
It's retail...
Why would she need a lawyer for that?
No... a thief's life < property. A honest citizen who doesn't steal is worth far more than property. A criminal... not so much they are filth.
Oh, Rand, please, spare the hyperbole. TRAUMA, my dear. Look up what that REALLY means.
It's reserved for people who suffered a major accident, were abused as a child, have been raped, have seen people die and/or were in a war. Did I get through to you?
If I steal a toothpaste tube for 1$, I'm pretty sure that absolutely no one involved will suffer from a trauma. Why should they? What fricking mechanism should create this trauma?
It's not life or death. It's not a massive psychological shock because you're threatened with death or because it was so unexpected. No bones were broken. No blood loss. Nothing which would actually be able to cause a trauma.
Just your moronic statement that shoplifting for some braindead reason would be able to cause a trauma. Geeze, man, get a grip and maybe look up the meaning of the word you're trying to use.
Because what you're currently using is comparing a firecracker to an atomic bomb.
edit: Not to mention that your argument of "being ignorant" can be used against you because you're the one completely trivializing the word trauma, making it harder for actual trauma victims to gain recognition.
Seriously? Trauma from a $1 shoplifter? That's life in retail. It's annoying, yes. It's a problem if you're losing too much.
But if you're actually undergoing a traumatic event because someone stole $1 from you - then you should get the hell out of retail fast.
I mean, trauma from a robbery at gunpoint, no problem. A follwing beating or maybe even being shot, sure, can cause a trauma. But shoplifting? A crime you actually have to watch out for to notice?
Last edited by Khendraja'aro; 10-13-2013 at 12:33 PM.
When the stars threw down their spears
And watered heaven with their tears:
Did he smile his work to see?
Did he who made the lamb make thee?
The value of the items stolen isn't the issue, whether its $1 or $1000. I've had a pregnant colleague had a machete held to her throat by thieves. The value of what they stole is inconsequential to the trauma, yes trauma, that she underwent.
People should feel safe in their homes, in their workplaces, in public.
Clearly the woman in this case noticed however this intrusion happened. I don't care about the value of what was stolen compared to the consequences for those concerned.
That, my dear, is not shoplifting, that is a robbery. Moron. What Lewk referenced and what I talked about, are just that: SHOPLIFTING.
Maybe next time read what I wrote since I actually talked about your argument and countered it. You look a proper fool now. Reading is not your thing, ain't it?
What's next? You're trying to equate jaywalking with shoving an old grandmother before a bus?
When the stars threw down their spears
And watered heaven with their tears:
Did he smile his work to see?
Did he who made the lamb make thee?
In practice you are indeed risking your life and/or health for an inexpensive item and negligible improvement to society, never mind to your own QoL. If you believe your life and health are worth an inexpensive item or putting a shoplifter in jail, okay, sure. A stronger argument may be that it might save people from getting harmed in the future.
Anyway, the store was probably in the wrong here.
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
... has anything anyone has said here caused you to believe that we don't think that having your life and the life of your unborn child threatened by machete-wielding robbers constitutes a trauma?
Apart from a very fussy reading of "... if you're actually undergoing a traumatic event because someone stole $1 from you" I guess
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
The whole reason and justification of the dismissal of this lady is that she helped put herself and her colleagues in danger (because thieves are dangerous). It is the thief who is the danger and yes it is very intrusive and traumatic to be a victim of a crime like that.
Following chasing the thief out of my home (like this lady chased one out of her store) I struggled to sleep properly for the next year because every 'bump in the night' I imagined to be another thief trying to break in and going downstairs to check. Once bitten, twice shy.
People should have a basic right to feel safe and this thief took stole not just a $600 (not $1) product but stole that too away from her and others. It is not right and if you don't care about that then you and I will never see eye to eye.
Just so we're clear, you had someone break into your own home while you and your wife were in bed, while this woman saw someone shoplift something from the store where she works, likely for the hundredth time. The only trauma she's likely to have experienced is the trauma that came from being fired over her actions. I recognise what you're saying about losing one's sense of safety, but I don't think the comparison between your experience and hers is a reasonable one to make, never mind the one about the machete.
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
As I said, we don't see eye to eye then.
Wow Rand do you also think pigs making jokes about boobs online is the same as getting raped?it's not simply that we don't see eye to eye. I get what you're saying about the value of feeling safe and the sense of violation that may come with losing that. What I'm saying is that you're letting your experience colour your opinion of another event that is only superficially similar and most likely nowhere near as disturbing.
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
No I don't consider thieves a laughing matter equivalent to bad jokes.
How about people being teased on facebook? Is that the same as being beaten up at school?
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
Why are you trivializing them as just being "bad jokes"? Seeing them might make a woman feel extremely violated and traumatized and bring back bad memories or make them afraid of engaging in normal online activities.
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
No I don't consider theft equivalent to mere teasing either. Shows how much disregard and scant care you have for how serious it is by belittling it with comparisons to "jokes" and "teasing" neither of which are illegal.
If you want to correlate armed robbery with rape then I'd contrast shoplifting with criminal sexual harrassment. And if an employee broke policy (but not the law) while defending herself in an incident of a member of the public breaking the law sexually harrassing her then I would expect that employee to be treated with compassion and want the criminal prosecuted.
And here I thought we were discussing the psychological impact on the victim rather than the limits of the law. So do you think someone who saw someone else get groped at work is as traumatized as someone who was raped? It is incredible and also saddening to see you trivialize sexism and bullying btw.
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
The idea that I have behind this is that if more people were to make this decision, it would either not be just myself stopping these people, or the person performing these actions would've chosen not to because they'd have to make a cost/benefit analysis between the item they want to steal and whether or not a group of people are going to stop them. I don't believe this would affect major thefts or professional thieves, but it would stop some people like a random soccer mom from thinking "Billy only needs five sheets of construction paper, why should I pay for this pack of 50 when I can just rip it open and take five without anyone stopping me?" because at the very least one or more people would call her out on her poor behavior instead of just watching it happen (Per Standard Operating Procedure I can't call them out on it. At best I can ask them passive-aggressive questions about purchasing said item. If they don't care, I can't stop them). Also the more frequently an individual is called out or stopped for their behavior, the less likely it is they will continue or escalate it.
Retail isn't just putting stuff on shelves or running an item over a scanner and putting it in a bag Lewk. Especially with certain stores like Lowes where customers are not only going to expect you to know where hundreds of products are, but to have an opinion on each one, know how/when to use the product, know which product out of similar products is the best, how to solve problems with the product, or even explain to them how to do their entire project and what products they have to buy because they don't know or haven't researched it. They have to do this all without on the spot access to a guide or Google.
Last edited by Illusions; 10-13-2013 at 05:40 PM.
. . .
I never said they were. But I think someone who is groped at work and reacts should be treated compassionately, just as someone who is stolen from at work should be too.
this is why Home Depot went down the shitter. they let go of their experienced workers for minimum wage teenagers. Making the store and service there useless to all but contractors. Lowes still uses actual craftsmen in their departments.
"In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."
You can work for a retailer for 18 years and not have a contract. I have no idea where Rand is getting this idea.
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I never said they definitely would have one, just surprised if they don't after 18 years. Then again I'm surprised at the lack of recognition of 18 years of loyal service to the company by dismissing her for taking it personally when the store is attacked. That sort of loyalty you can't buy and frankly this decision just seems plainly stupidly bad management.
I agree it's dumb. But most folks that work in retail don't have contracts.
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It's a legal requirement for employees to have a contract here. Not that contracts typically add any extra rights as a retail contract will generally just mirror the legal requirements that are granted by law not contract.
Okay then, but no the case in this...case
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But in this case, they were not stolen from. The store was stolen from. That's quite a big difference.
When the stars threw down their spears
And watered heaven with their tears:
Did he smile his work to see?
Did he who made the lamb make thee?
*Jaw drops* On what do you base this idea that they were working gray-market for the local retail facility of a major national corporation? For 18 years?
edit: Veldan, you have a contract. I've worked retail, there are employment contracts. Even in "right-to-work" states.
Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"
I actually do have a contract, but what you are calling a contract is really putting lipstick on a pig and making it complicated. Are you sure you are not a lawyer?
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