There is no right to migrate. There is however a right to asylum. The moment you start treating them as if they are the same you loose control altogether.Originally Posted by Flixy
There is no right to migrate. There is however a right to asylum. The moment you start treating them as if they are the same you loose control altogether.
Congratulations America
OK, so if the long term solution is fixing the problem at its root/source.....that means (somehow) ending the civil wars, tyrannical regimes, and terrorist groups (like ISIS, Boko Haram, Al Shabaab, etc.) causing all the chaos. It's impossible to do all that concurrently, but especially if we focus on military interventions first, diplomacy second, and humanitarian aid last.
If the short and mid term solutions -- like better border controls, registering and vetting asylum-seekers, providing "safe passage", or eliminating human smugglers -- are left to just a few countries that are already collapsing under the weight....then things will probably get worse.
Interesting to watch the back-and-forth between Rand and Hazir about WHO PAYS, and for what. It's worth noting that UN food aid funds are nearly exhausted, which compounds the problem. When people who've been *waiting* in refugee camps for years learn they'll have even less food....is it any wonder they might decide to trek to Europe, any way they can?
Rand, is it helpful or constructive to lay so much blame on Merkel's policies? (The US hasn't fully funded its promises to the UN, for that matter.) I'm more bothered by what Saudi Arabia isn't doing, and what Russia is doing....so that European and North American policies are caught in the cross-hairs of our own making.
Yeah, why aren't we negotiating with ISIS and Boko Haram.
Hope is the denial of reality
If you thought I suggested such a thing, you're wrong.Yeah, why aren't we negotiating with ISIS and Boko Haram.
The main thing I'm saying is that our short-mid-long term goals don't automatically coincide, or align like stars.
For example....why the hell does Europe keep buying Russian oil, when Putin's Russia is a corrupt oligarchy? It's not like 21st century 'first world' European nations don't have alternatives to Russian fossil fuels.
And why does the US ally itself with Saudi Arabia even though they're a kingdom/theocracy that routinely violates human rights? It's not like North America needs foreign oil or OPEC to be productive.
BTW, economies once built on oil are now realizing they were actually built on water. And now that water has become a scarce and valuable commodity.....global economics, and public policy, have changed accordingly, and dramatically.
Syria's farmers experienced a great drought several years ago that couldn't be off-set by the petroleum industry's profits or employment . Syrians had to elect a leader....but in doing so they sealed their own fate when they elected Assad...because he was allied with the petroleum industry.
The petroleum industry (aka oil or fossil fuels) has taken the world on a wild ride. It's insinuated itself in industry sectors like automobiles, buses, trains, planes. Even communication sectors (cell phones that need electric charging) are captured by their monopoly behavior.
I hope that our fossil-fueled mess will lead to new and better "solutions" in domestic and international policy going forward. One problem remains: you can't eat an iPad.
Last edited by GGT; 09-13-2015 at 01:49 AM.
Surprise, surprise rather than fall the number of migrants has continued to escalate faster and faster as long as the green light is shown. Now Munich has gone from saying refugees welcome to we're at our limit as 12,200 arrived yesterday alone.
Again I understand you can't extrapolate based on one day, but at an annual rate that'd be 4.5 million refugees going to Munich over the next year.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...gency-measures And Germany is (temporarily) out of Schengen.
Hope is the denial of reality
Yeah I take it back and apologise, you're completely right this hasn't backfired on Germany* at all
* Or the rest of Europe and the migrants given the impression to make it across without safe or legal transport.
Germany's flip-flopping on this matter makes it even worse. If I was an Austrian politician I'd be absolutely furious with the Germans for first encouraging this flood of migrants, then saying on second thoughts Austria you keep them.
EDIT: Germany is putting at risk the EU's entire credibility on this now. To have the EU's leading nation pull out of Schengen because of their own decisions, while trying to bully other nations into taking quotas is not going to lead to any resentment at all will it. [/sarcasm]
EDIT 2: Just saw from your link Loki that dozens more drowned making the crossing today. I hold Merkel responsible for every one of those deaths when she has actively encouraged people into making a dangerous crossing without providing any legal or safe method of crossing. To promote a policy of "you can stay if you make it here" is one of the sickest Darwinian policies this century has ever seen.
Last edited by RandBlade; 09-13-2015 at 07:10 PM.
Bullshit on Edit 2. There's no indication that the number of people trying to cross across the sea has increased.
Hope is the denial of reality
Months ago we were talking about tens of thousands of migrants into the EU, now its hundreds of thousands or millions. Yet that's not an increase in your eyes?
We were also reading about thousands of refugees dying in the sea months ago. There's no indication that number has risen.
Hope is the denial of reality
You said there's no evidence the numbers crossing the sea hasn't risen, I've pointed to the numbers rising from tens of thousands to possible millions. They weren't crossing the sea to go to other destinations. Can you point to any evidence that the numbers crossing haven't increased dramatically since Merkel implemented her Darwin policy?
As far as I could tell, most of the current wave was already in Europe.
Hope is the denial of reality
And almost all refugees from Syria were already allowed to stay in the EU, so that incentive hasn't changed much.
Keep on keepin' the beat alive!
Where in Europe where they already? Maps I've seen in the news show them travelling from Turkey (Asia side) across the Med into Greece and then on from there?
There is a massive difference in incentive between saying we're dealing with issues case by case but refugees should stay in their first safe nation ... and a nation ~10 nations away from Syria publicly implementing a Darwin policy of if you make it you can stay.
You seem to forget that one actually needs money to get from the Middle East to anywhere in Europe. And since the Turks are not making it easy to leave Turkey towards the west you need a lot of money.
As for the closure of the border with Austria; that is a decision the Visegrad nations are going to love. Because you can bet your last money on the stream diverting towards the north, the Czech Republic, Slovakia etc will soon learn whether they can really recluse themselves from being part of the solution. Just look at how close Nickelsdorf (where people enter Austria at the moment is to Slovakia) I think what we have seen is not Germany throwing in the towel, but Germany throwing down the gauntlet. We'll see how the tough comments in their national newspapers translate into rejection of cooperation with a Germany that's obviously willing to let non-cooperation come at a cost. My bet is that at this emergency summit that is in the making as we speak will result in bloody heads and resignation to a quota-system, a list of safe nations, and a rapid procedure to send back anybody who's not a refugee.
Congratulations America
I'm not forgetting that, that is why this Darwin policy is leading to dividends for the people traffickers.
You are constitutionally incapable of admitting that Merkel made a mistake aren't you? Even though until recently you and I were both saying we need to deal with the people traffickers, her actively encouraging them changes things.As for the closure of the border with Austria; that is a decision the Visegrad nations are going to love. Because you can bet your last money on the stream diverting towards the north, the Czech Republic, Slovakia etc will soon learn whether they can really recluse themselves from being part of the solution. Just look at how close Nickelsdorf (where people enter Austria at the moment is to Slovakia) I think what we have seen is not Germany throwing in the towel, but Germany throwing down the gauntlet. We'll see how the tough comments in their national newspapers translate into rejection of cooperation with a Germany that's obviously willing to let non-cooperation come at a cost. My bet is that at this emergency summit that is in the making as we speak will result in bloody heads and resignation to a quota-system, a list of safe nations, and a rapid procedure to send back anybody who's not a refugee.
She has all the nous in this instance of the Grand Old Duke of York. She marched up to the top of the hill and proclaimed everyone is welcome, then was horrified to see people took that to mean they should come. So then she said to her neighbours, you should also make everyone welcome and they've said no this is your mess we're not agreeing to that. So now she's marching down the hill again.
Yet she's a genius and kind and not at all cold-hearted and Darwinian in all this. People who were being sensible should all bow down and repeat her mistakes because 28 wrongs make a right.
Yes, she made mistakes. But it's not the mistake you think she made. Her first mistake was to under-estimate the stupidity of Orban, who by resisting the quota system saddles Hungary with many more refugees than it can support. Her second mistake was to under-estimate the lack of basic decency in the Visegrad nations. Now Germany is effectively punishing them for their actions.
Congratulations America
Before Merkel unilaterally gave a blank cheque inviting millions of people to come illegally* through Hungary to get to Germany or die trying, did she bother to check with Orban first? It seems not, in which case she can hardly be upset at Orban being upset.
* She's not giving either legal or safe passage.
You're essentially saying a pyromaniac is upset as after she threw oil on a fire that others weren't so happy to join her in that.
As for the Visegard, they're showing a lot of human decency. Unlike Merkel who is doing f//k all to help those who aren't willing to pay people smugglers to reach Europe. Once Merkel starts a policy that doesn't rely on the people smugglers as method of transportation you might have a point.
The most you can really say is that she sped up the process. There is some evidence that her actions have increased the number of migrants from Afghanistan though.
Hope is the denial of reality
No that is not the most I can say which is why it got so much publicity when she said what was said, and why so many more people are crossing and drowning and crossing borders since the Dublin Regulation was replaced with the Darwin Policy.
Now instead of calming things and leading to a smoother process the Schengen Area is collapsing. Following on from Germany reinstating border controls, now Austria is sending the army to enforce its border with Hungary. Slovakia and Hazir's own Netherlands too.
But now we've gone from Merkel's Darwin Policy being described by its supporters from "generous" to "meaningless". That's the height of success.
Great to see David Cameron finally come out say that other European nations should step up to the plate and follow our lead on this crisis. I know you might be constitutionally incapable of saying that the UK is doing the right thing Hazir buts its about time to end this nonsense that Germany's futile unilateral Darwin people traffickers policy and failure to provide funding was generous. We've given a billion pounds in aid to those in need and are taking refugees directly and safely from the camps.
Its about time that nations shirking their responsibilities like Germany and France and follow our lead.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34242346
Actually, it seems that Merkel has gotten exactly what she wanted; a quota system has been agreed upon. Despite all the talk of vetoes only hours ago.
Congratulations America
This mistake isn't working, why don't we get everyone to do it and then it will work. Will quotas deal with the people traffickers?
Didn't you once have a signature along the lines of "we've got to the bottom; let's keep digging"? Seems apt here.
And how well is the UK approach working? Have you set up points yet where people can apply for entry to the UK in Turkey, Jordan or Lebanon? How many people have you processed and how many people are on their way to the UK in government paid seats on a plane? Or for that matter, how many people have you kept from making a perilous journey by giving them a decent home, food and a chance of education or work in the neighbouring countries? What exactly has the UK done besides bleating theoretical solutions so far? Or how much safer have you made Syria with your inability to stop Jihadi's from joining ISIS and Al Qaida or with your limited air strikes?
And you seriously wonder why nobody would give a damn no matter what you say?
Congratulations America
Yeah Rand, is anyone meant to take the 5k a year number seriously?
Hope is the denial of reality
Absolutely Loki. It's more than we have been taking and considering we're spending more on aid for those who need it than anyone else why would it not be taken seriously? How many are the USA taking or spending? How much is Germany spending?
What exactly the UK has done Hazir is spend a billion pounds on providing shelter etc for the over 90% left behind who need it. Far more than anyone else in Europe. Only the USA has spent more than the UK and considering the relative sizes not that much at all, in fact proportionately its about half. Frankly Hazir it's embarrassing that nobody else than us will do the right thing and I couldn't give a damn at all if a bunch of incompetent cheapskates who won't do the right thing and are running around like headless chickens give a damn about what we're actually doing while they do sweet f*** all. Except for b***h at each other and reinstate border controls of course, apparently that now classes as doing something - anything I suppose other than spending money where it matters.
While continental Europe squabbles with each other making it up as they go along but refusing to spend anything all; all I see the US doing is taking less than relatively half as many refugees as us (10k is the latest figure I can see) and is spending about relatively half of what we are.
Considering we're not just doing the right thing but have both the moral and practical high grounds here I can't see anyone else having any right to condemn it.
Are you Saudi Arabia now? Going to clear your conscience with cash?
No one said the US is doing a great job here. You're the one claiming that taking in 5k immigrants is somehow a benefit to humanity.
Hope is the denial of reality
Taking 5k of those who are most desperate while providing billions for those who need it who can stay behind (as is standard operating procedure)? Absolutely that's the best thing we can do.
Who is doing what practically or ethically that is better?
Lebanon, Jordan, Iraq, and Turkey, by taking in millions.
Hope is the denial of reality
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