No, I get your point, it's just vague and incoherent. Littering is illegal. The legality of smoking doesn't impact that any more than keeping Haagen-Dazs bars legal. And if you're going to operate a public beach, putting out some garbage cans is reasonable in any circumstance. Interesting how you think the presence of garbage cans on public beaches is some kind of raging philosophical dilemma.Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer
You haven't got a clue how this whole internet thing works, do you?The point is that these people drive up the prices (or lower the quality) for everyone. Maybe the government can just pass a law banning people from using more than x amount of bandwidth in a month.
When the stars threw down their spears
And watered heaven with their tears:
Did he smile his work to see?
Did he who made the lamb make thee?
Try again.
careful, you risk clogging his tubes.
Government tells ISPs: don't let anyone use more than x bandwidth or we'll fine you.
Hope is the denial of reality
Umm, no, I'm right and you're being unusually moronic.
I disagree. He's being as moronic as normal.
Hope is the denial of reality
You've always had an issue with neurotic projection, but its unusually strong tonight
I'm curious if anyone else here sees same the wrenching philosophical issues about the size of government in beach garbages.
1. Is this actually true?
2. To what extent? Is it a big problem in the US? You guys don't do the internet thing very well.
Maybe they could, but I didn't know your government was in the business of providing your populace with unlimited broadband internet connections. I was certain they were too busy trying to figure out how many tax-dollars they should spend on cleaning up cigarette-butts.Maybe the government can just pass a law banning people from using more than x amount of bandwidth in a month.
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
I dunno 'bout philosophy but I thought your objection to a smoking-ban on beaches was based on a feeling that politicians were going over the line, which I suppose can be construed as an objection to government interference in beach life or something.
In the OP you dismissed the issue of smell and smoke out of hand, but not the issue of cleanup.
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
I hadn't especially been thinking about this as a matter of government intrusion, but the issue of beach cleanup still seems a bit divorced from the main issues that come into consideration with smoking bans in bars. Litter on beaches comes from tons of sources.
And remember, I support smoking bans in bars.
True, but you've got to admit that cig butts are everywhere. And I've quite often been sitting there, then a group sets up their blanket and stuff downwind of us and starts puffin away. I'm tempted to go up wind of them and take a shit, but frankly it probably would smell as bad for as long, and we know of no health problems assorted with it.
Last edited by ']['ear; 07-12-2010 at 04:39 PM. Reason: Mis-type, fixed and underlined
You may want to consider going upwind.
Not necessarily. It depends on how much you oversell, how good the equipment of the ISP is, the quality of the uplink, what kind of services are used (HTTP, VoIP, SSL, Torrent, FTP,...), if there's some kind of QoS enabled, the type of service they're providing (Cable, DSL, FiOS, ...) and so on and so forth.
When the stars threw down their spears
And watered heaven with their tears:
Did he smile his work to see?
Did he who made the lamb make thee?
Agreed, and I can only hope that the litter argument was based on an actual inquiry into how much could be saved on cleanup if smoking were banned from beaches.
Re. bars, bars are private establishments, and I assumed beaches are public. If that's the case then is it very difficult to accept public displeasure about smoking at beaches as a legit reason for a ban?
How would you feel about restricting smoking to parts of a beach, as a compromise?
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
From what I understand, most of the costs for an ISP are fixed and fully covered by the monthly fees. As long as the tubes are not fully saturated, the costs of someone downloading 50 GB more than his peer are negligible. ISPs try to plan for peak usage for like 95% of their users, and try to get around problems with crowded pipes through various strategies, such as bandwidth throttling during peak hours, encouraging people to move large amounts of data during off-peak hours, etc. Oh, and, of course: by increasing the capacity of their tubes, which is getting easier and cheaper to do for every passing year, even in the technologically stunted USA.
I know that some American ISPs have tried to place the blame of rising prices and unimpressive service on heavy internet users but I don't think those arguments have ever really stood up to close scrutiny.
This article, btw, is fun:
http://www.wired.com/epicenter/2009/.../#previouspost
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
So somebody plunks their cancer-ridden asses down and *I* need to move? OK, I'll make that concession. Then what about the next one? And the next one? Depends on the crowdedness of the beach, but often enough you can't escape it.You may want to consider going upwind.
I'm always thrilled to grant people rights. The right to cause health problems in others is NOT enshrined in the constitution. Just another example of entitlement behavior by spoiled brats.
I think you are mistaking upwind from downwind.
Keep on keepin' the beat alive!
You don't need to go that deep into it. The public has stated that they don't want smokers on the beach. I'm not the only one in this thread to point out that its not a smoke related problem, but a litter problem. Cigs aren't the only the trash on the beach, thats obvious. Cigs are however is the biggest problem. Likely in volume, rate of offending, and the disgusting factor of it. The administration wants to act. They have 3 possible avenues to do so.
1) Increase litter patrols, paying tax funded police to watch beach goers who may be litter bugs. Now as already stated cigs are the biggest offender, so you're either going to end up with possible harrassment, because of how hard its going to be actually catch someone ditching a cig on the beach, or because profiling is going to tell the cop that smokers are the most likely offenders. Not to mention the problem of having all the fines stand up in challenges.
Yes, I'm saying litter laws are mostly useless in this case.
2) Install more cig recepricals. You can't use standard easy to swap trashcans because those things are like tinder to a lit cig on a hot dry day. So you have to purchase and install these cig stations, and you'll have to pay an extra yearly salary for someone to maintain them. Cig stations dont' swap out like trash bags, most of the time you've got someone with an extended arm plucking the butts out of a sandy base. Or you've got a truck driving down the beach swapping stations, so the butt shifting can be done at a station.
This is wasteful government.
3) You ban smoking on beaches. Makes its easier to catch violators, and as the original article already stated, the fines would be modest. Making it sould like those caught are choosing to pay to smoke on the beach, not go bankrupt from government fines. Less litter, and if done right, the collected fines can go towards better litter collection.
but this is oppressive government.
and this appears to have nothing to do with smoking in doors, except they both include smokers as the offending party.
Last edited by Ominous Gamer; 07-13-2010 at 01:15 AM.
Tear, he means that you would probably want to place your pile of poo in such a way that the wind carries the stench from the pile to the smokers. Eg:
direction of wind ============> PoP ===========> smokers
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
AH, I missed the mis-type. Got it.
While the article stated dual issues of second hand smoke and littering, the quotes from various public officials seem to suggest that it remains primarily a second-hand-smoke issue. With littering thrown in to get more support.
Well, cig littering IS generally pretty extreme, especially in water. Where do all those filters go?
Littering in general just strikes me as grossly negligent. I'd argue that it is one of the easiest diagnostic indicators for an asshole. If you see somebody just toss litter on the ground, you can be pretty certain that they are a self-centered jerk.
You're right.
I mean, even the neighborhood kids I most want my children to stay away from drop their litter on the ground (they also eat an enormous quantity of candy, but that's a whole different story).
We're stuck in a bloody snowglobe.
If you see somebody pull out a cigarette in public, then chances are they are a self-centred jerk.
If you see somebody, chances are they are a self-centred jerk.
In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.
I could have had class. I could have been a contender.
I could have been somebody. Instead of a bum
Which is what I am
I aim at the stars
But sometimes I hit London
Self-centered jerk!!!
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
I disagree. Some are very considerate, and some stand in the middle of a crowd at the bus stop with a "fuck you all" look on their face. Usual gamut of humanity, just addicted.
I disagree. Some smokers who smoke in private may be considerate, most I ever see in public are almost by definition doing so where there are other people and almost always litter.
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