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Thread: How Much Morality in Politics?

  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    What happens if 2/3 of the population are against gay marriage? Or even 9/10? Isn't having a society where the belief that people should have the right to marriage trumps the belief that political authority is ultimately derived from the people in itself a form of morality?
    It depends on the basis. It could also be amoral.

    God, I know I'm going to start getting catcalls for this, but here it goes:

    If the foundation for the basis of the legal code is, instead of morality, liberty, then opposing gay marriage becomes indefensible, regardless of how many people don't like it. Allowing it does not remove or threaten the liberty of anyone else, and gives greater liberty to those who would do it, so on that basis it must be allowed. If you make all decisions of law by trying to find the optimal path to create as many open doors for as many people as possible, then situations like this wouldn't happen. I'll admit that there's still some value judgements you have to make in there, since you still have to figure out which freedoms are more important than others and okay to sacrifice, but there's a lot less wriggle room for things like gay marriage.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    All of these ideas/political viewpoints are based in morality. Now from an objective viewpoint someone's reason for their moral argument be it secular or theological should make no difference. If one person says we should have laws against prostitution because it is sinful (wrong) how is that different from someone who says we shouldn't let people go hungry in the streets because it is wrong? I ask this question because I suspect that many folks on the forum think religious morality based laws = bad. And yet at the same time they believe secular morality based laws are somehow different and more acceptable.

    So how much morality should be in politics and do you see any difference between religious morality and secular morality?
    The difference between the two is that a society whose laws are based on religious morality find it very difficult to adjust to changing times and base their beliefs on irrationality. I.E. We should outlaw X because holy book Y said so (coincidentally, that's not very far from saying that we shouldn't do anything to change the Constitution, it being a perfect document and all).

    Meanwhile, the other set of belief is based on reason, however flawed. Reason can be challenged on rational grounds (e.g. having a large safety net leads to more poverty), and it's more likely to change to reflect changing times (e.g. we should treat the internet in a certain way because it benefits us in some way, not because God might or might not approve it).

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    It depends on the basis. It could also be amoral.

    God, I know I'm going to start getting catcalls for this, but here it goes:

    If the foundation for the basis of the legal code is, instead of morality, liberty, then opposing gay marriage becomes indefensible, regardless of how many people don't like it. Allowing it does not remove or threaten the liberty of anyone else, and gives greater liberty to those who would do it, so on that basis it must be allowed. If you make all decisions of law by trying to find the optimal path to create as many open doors for as many people as possible, then situations like this wouldn't happen. I'll admit that there's still some value judgements you have to make in there, since you still have to figure out which freedoms are more important than others and okay to sacrifice, but there's a lot less wriggle room for things like gay marriage.
    Not allowing people any say over certain laws deprives them of liberty. You might be depriving them of less liberty than they'd deprive gay people, but you're probably taking liberty away from more people. It's not clear which would be better on utilitarian grounds (assuming we're trying to maximize liberty).
    Hope is the denial of reality

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    I'll admit that there's still some value judgements you have to make in there, since you still have to figure out which freedoms are more important than others and okay to sacrifice, but there's a lot less wriggle room for things like gay marriage.
    And who gets to decide which freedoms are better than others? And on what basis will they be chosen?
    We're stuck in a bloody snowglobe.

  4. #64
    I already conceded the point that there's still some value judgements needed in such a system.

    The people who make the decision would be your elected representatives, of course!

  5. #65
    Wouldn't the public elect representatives who more or less represent their views? If 90% opposed gay marriage, would they really elect people who thought that a gay person's right to marriage is something to be protected?
    Hope is the denial of reality

  6. #66
    Hey, I'm not saying it'd be easy to convince people to switch to such a system. Most people are probably just going to say "I want representatives who do whatever I want, fuck everyone else!"

  7. #67
    Well, come on. If we're creating a utopian paradise then I'm afraid it's going to be my benevolent dictatorship.
    We're stuck in a bloody snowglobe.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    Hey, I'm not saying it'd be easy to convince people to switch to such a system. Most people are probably just going to say "I want representatives who do whatever I want, fuck everyone else!"
    I think there are two semi-solutions to this problem. The first is that you have some rules that simply cannot be changed. It wouldn't be terribly democratic, but it would prevent any sub-group from having less rights than another sub-group. The other alternative is to make it hard to take away rights, i.e. require super-majorities and/or constitutional amendments. The problem is that there will occasionally be such super-majorities, and there's nothing you can do during those times. Not that I think there's a perfect solution; if there was, someone would have thought of it by now.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    The difference between the two is that a society whose laws are based on religious morality find it very difficult to adjust to changing times and base their beliefs on irrationality. I.E. We should outlaw X because holy book Y said so (coincidentally, that's not very far from saying that we shouldn't do anything to change the Constitution, it being a perfect document and all).

    Meanwhile, the other set of belief is based on reason, however flawed. Reason can be challenged on rational grounds (e.g. having a large safety net leads to more poverty), and it's more likely to change to reflect changing times (e.g. we should treat the internet in a certain way because it benefits us in some way, not because God might or might not approve it).
    Wow you don't post for about a day and the thread moves quite a long way... I'll go back to other posts as I have time but I'm going to start from the back.

    Loki - So what you are saying is that secular morality is better then religious morality because its flexible? I don't see flexible as being inherently good. A rigid intolerance of genocide is a good thing for example. A societal bias against murder that doesn't change is also nice. Besides under that rational we should eliminate the constitution in the United States because it asks as a bulwark against change. If 51% of people want to do X then a government that accommodates them quickly is more flexible but I doubt most would agree that it is better.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    If the good feeling is the prime motivator for doing good, then actually, yes, it would sort of nullify (not negate) it. Because, again, as soon as the good feeling ceases to exist...

    Thread drift. And Lewk of course never followed up
    I'm going to have to disagree with you. Positive and negative reinforcement are all that people respond to in one way or another. If someone does a good deed for no positive benefit but just to do a good deed then that person has received some benefit from doing it. Be it the warm fuzzy that lolli is referring to or something else there is a benefit. That something else could be as simple as the satisfaction of doing the "right" thing for no other reason then it is good and moral.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    Wow you don't post for about a day and the thread moves quite a long way... I'll go back to other posts as I have time but I'm going to start from the back.

    Loki - So what you are saying is that secular morality is better then religious morality because its flexible? I don't see flexible as being inherently good. A rigid intolerance of genocide is a good thing for example. A societal bias against murder that doesn't change is also nice. Besides under that rational we should eliminate the constitution in the United States because it asks as a bulwark against change. If 51% of people want to do X then a government that accommodates them quickly is more flexible but I doubt most would agree that it is better.
    Do you trust man enough to have created perfect laws? If not, why make it all but impossible to change them?

    As for your genocide example, let's say we have a holy book that forbade it, and that was the reason a society refused to commit genocide. Unless there was also a prohibition against politicide and other forms of mass slaughter, would this society refrain from committing those acts? Meanwhile, a society that used reason to decide that genocide was wrong would quite likely realize that politicide is also enough in character to be wrong as well. What happens if a society forbids polygamy because of its holy book and then loses 90% of its men in a war? What do you think would be the consequence of inflexibility in this scenario?
    Hope is the denial of reality

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    I still think that Lewk's approach is deeply flawed, inasmuch as he ignores the basis of secular laws (i.e. Kant et al.). Without mentioning those, we can't have a useful discussion about the difference between religious and secular morals/ethics.

    "Act only according to that maxim whereby you can, at the same time, will that it should become a universal law."
    Just our of curiosity what percentage of the population do you think look at a situation and say "Hmmm let me think am I making this decision because of whatever maxim Kant said we should follow?"

    There are tons of different types of secular morality and many are based on religious morality. My main interest is why some people think secular morality is innately more relevant then religious morality?

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Do you trust man enough to have created perfect laws? If not, why make it all but impossible to change them?

    As for your genocide example, let's say we have a holy book that forbade it, and that was the reason a society refused to commit genocide. Unless there was also a prohibition against politicide and other forms of mass slaughter, would this society refrain from committing those acts? Meanwhile, a society that used reason to decide that genocide was wrong would quite likely realize that politicide is also enough in character to be wrong as well. What happens if a society forbids polygamy because of its holy book and then loses 90% of its men in a war? What do you think would be the consequence of inflexibility in this scenario?
    Well the United States has changed the constitution more then a few times. Take a look at drinking... 18th amendment outlawed liquor sales. Didn't work out too well and the 21st amendment overturned it. I'm sure your aware of it but for our foreigners here I wanted to point out how amendments can and have been made to the constitution.

    The concept of using "reason" based morality as opposed to theological based morality in the genocide example is rather false. Your questions imply that a reason based morality system is going to make the "right" choices. With no firm footing a reason based morality society can end up choose to say that genocide is pretty fun if your people have a bunch of debt and another group of people that are culturally different are the creditors... You can reason your way into almost any position and think your are doing the right thing with enough self justification.

    My personal view of course is that both secular morality and religious morality are going to be deeply flawed if those are the only ways to run a country.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    This is a great topic. As a side note, its interesting that you didn't add a very basic moral issue that plagues politics: honesty. Personally, I'd like to see a somewhat rigorous requirement for honesty in political speech.

    You hit on the key point here that there's more than 1 kind of morality - secular and theological - and complicating the matter, many moral issues fall into both realms. But there's more to it than just that. When you ask the question how is feeding starving children fundamentally different from outlawing prostitution, with your eye on the secular vs. theological moral conundrum, the answer is in fact quite simple. Prostitution, were it legal and regulated, would be a matter of personal choice and not of life and death, two additional moral characteristics that get more specific than simply god/non-god. Children don't choose to starve and when they do starve, they can die or be afflicted with developmental disorders. However, when a woman takes up the oldest profession, in the context of legal prostitution, she's making a decision freely and the choice won't result in her death. The reason the former is unnacceptable and the latter allowable is rooted in these characteristics, not something to do with religous law.

    Moving along, here are my thoughts on the topics you listed:

    Morally speaking, the above answers this one. There isn't that much difference, morally, in letting children starve vs. adults. There is, however, a more practical dimension to providing for the needy. Starving people that are forsaken by the rest of society have every incentive to attack and rob that society to get food. Desperation creates rebels and thieves and that's bad for everyone.

    This one's good because there's the gluttony issue, a god rooted moral. There's also the quality of life issue - fat people, arguably, have a lower quality of life than fit people. There's also the free choice issue - children are easily exploited by crap food manufacturers and don't understand the health implications of eating bad food. And then there's the practical issue too - fat people are less healthy and put further pressure on the already strained health care system. Theoretically, thinner children in the long term means less overall health care expense.

    This one's a no brainer. The argument's already been had, by the Founders themselves. Freedom of religion is no different than freedom from religion. The personal choice of your religous beliefs is something that should not be infringed by society in any form.

    Ugh. This is a tough one. The simple answer is yes, we should. The complex reality is that we may not be able to stop it. Or be willing to shoulder the burden of stopping it. And worse, our efforts to stop it might make matters worse. In this case, the US was already involved in 2 other wars, deeply in debt from all sorts of governmental mismanagement, got a bloody nose trying to do the same sort of thing in nearby Somalia.... Should it have been stopped. Absolutely. Should the US have stopped it? Not sure - why are we the designated world police force? Why not the UN? Could the US have stopped it? Probably, but the cost would have been high, in lives and cash and who knows what else. And the outcome would have been very unpredictable - it could have worsened the genocide, exposed many more innocents to war and carnage, and so on.

    This is too simplisitic and you know it. I don't personally know anyone that would vote for this based on this logic. And I don't think its really a moral issue as stated.

    See 4 above. Its really the same set of issues.

    There's moral reaons to outlaw racism, both religous and secular. There's practical reasons to outlaw racism. It benefits the country as a whole if all people have the same opportunities. Now, we know that economically that is not the case and righting that inequality entirely would cause far more harm than good, but making sure people don't lose opportunity because of ethnicity is a win-win. I don't see a down side and the up side is big.

    Very sticky issue, balancing the rights of a pregnant mom against those of an unborn child. Personally, while I find abortion to be repugnant, I fall on the side of the mom. It's inside her body, it ends up being her responsibility when its born, the burden of the situation is almost entirely on her shoulders, so let her decide what to do about it. No, its not fair to the dad that wants the child, but there's no good way to right that injustice. In the end, while the fetus is a living human-to-be, its not the same thing as a human being. Its more about potential and its quite literally less than human. And there's very practical reasons to allow people with unwanted and inconvenient pregancies to terminate them.

    I don't see this as a moral issue at all. On the one hand, this infringes freedom, but on the other hand, the results of car accidents are far worse when people don't belt up. That means higher costs to the medical system and higher costs in terms of dead people who are now not providing for their families and leaving their former employers without a valuable employee, and the like...

    I would say a lot of morality should be in politics. But it should be the right kind of morality. Honesty and integrity, of course. Concern and help for those who can't take care of themselves. Concern and regard for preserving personal freedom. Concern and regard for maintaining the nations critical systems on which everyone depends, like the health care system, like the economy, and so on. Things like mandating everyone express certain beliefs based on a religion have no place in government.
    I'm sorry EyeKhan. These were just random examples of views off the top of my head that conservatives and liberals sometimes hold.

    As a side note, its interesting that you didn't add a very basic moral issue that plagues politics: honesty. Personally, I'd like to see a somewhat rigorous requirement for honesty in political speech.
    And who is going to be the fact checkers.

    Prostitution, were it legal and regulated, would be a matter of personal choice and not of life and death, two additional moral characteristics that get more specific than simply god/non-god.
    Well how far are you willing to take personal choice? If I own a company want my secretary to perform sexual acts or be fired should I be allowed to make that choice? Its not a life or death situation so lets take that out of the equation. And the secretary has a choice - keep job or have sex. The owner has the choice of putting the secretary in that position. So if we are looking at morality in the lens that as long as people have the capacity to make choices and they are not life and death anything should go? I don't think that is the argument you are making but that is what I extrapolate from it.

    But it should be the right kind of morality. Honesty and integrity, of course. Concern and help for those who can't take care of themselves. Concern and regard for preserving personal freedom. Concern and regard for maintaining the nations critical systems on which everyone depends, like the health care system, like the economy, and so on. Things like mandating everyone express certain beliefs based on a religion have no place in
    Of course the rub is whose morality should reign supreme? If we choose democratically then we get into issues where some societies have more then 50% of people who want to live under Sharia law...

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    This thread is a pleasant surprise

    I myself have no problems with morality and ethics in politics in principle. I am interested in having my own values supported!

    One reason why I distinguish between religious and secular values is that gods and afterlives probably don't exist, whereas our fellow human beings (and the world/societies in which we all live) clearly do. Therefore I believe that our obligations towards real-world people and to the real world trumps those towards gods and afterlives. The rewards (for society) of focusing on the real world are also more real and of more immediate value (specifically thinking of your examples).

    There are those who want laws against prostitution because they believe strongly (and possibly for good reasons) that prostitution hurts society or specific members of society in real ways. Rather than out of some belief that prostitution is sinful
    You are interested in your own values being supported. And this is the reason why you think ethics and morality do have a place in politics. How far do you think society should go in terms of having people follow your set (or any set) of values.

    You can make several arguments against prostitution. Both from a religious and secular morality. In the end regardless of the type of morality you use to justify the criminalization of prostitution you deny freedom to someone and force them to work under the yoke of values that they probably would not share.

  16. #76
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    I'm going to have to disagree with you. Positive and negative reinforcement are all that people respond to in one way or another. If someone does a good deed for no positive benefit but just to do a good deed then that person has received some benefit from doing it. Be it the warm fuzzy that lolli is referring to or something else there is a benefit. That something else could be as simple as the satisfaction of doing the "right" thing for no other reason then it is good and moral.
    If you're doing it solely because of that fuzzy warm feeling - well, then, sorry, you're no better than a trained dog. You're proposing a rather behaviouristic view of humans - there's a reason why social sciences have moved away from that perspective.

    If you're doing something because of a stimulus then your action is neither good or bad, wrong or right. After all, you did not think about it, you did not decide anything about it, you just reacted to the stimulus.

    And that's something even a mollusk is capable of. I'd rather hope that we humans do have some amount of free will.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    Just our of curiosity what percentage of the population do you think look at a situation and say "Hmmm let me think am I making this decision because of whatever maxim Kant said we should follow?"

    There are tons of different types of secular morality and many are based on religious morality. My main interest is why some people think secular morality is innately more relevant then religious morality?
    One can be based on reason (y'know, the very own gift from God to us humans, according to your man in the sky). The other is based upon what a mystical man in the sky said.

    And as to your first question: You yourself talked of politics, my dear. Political decisions are usually discussed. Which then very well brings Mr. Kant into play since, y'know, the political process actually allows for "looking at a situation". Please don't try to muddle your own discussion by conflating spontaneous and political decisions, okay?
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    Well the United States has changed the constitution more then a few times. Take a look at drinking... 18th amendment outlawed liquor sales. Didn't work out too well and the 21st amendment overturned it. I'm sure your aware of it but for our foreigners here I wanted to point out how amendments can and have been made to the constitution.

    The concept of using "reason" based morality as opposed to theological based morality in the genocide example is rather false. Your questions imply that a reason based morality system is going to make the "right" choices. With no firm footing a reason based morality society can end up choose to say that genocide is pretty fun if your people have a bunch of debt and another group of people that are culturally different are the creditors... You can reason your way into almost any position and think your are doing the right thing with enough self justification.

    My personal view of course is that both secular morality and religious morality are going to be deeply flawed if those are the only ways to run a country.
    I was referring to people who claim that we shouldn't touch the constitution at all (i.e. including amending it).

    I don't think reason always leads to good outcomes; in fact, it quite often leads to very bad ones. The point I'm making is that we can change our minds about the utility of something based on reason. Communists came up with collective farms, most people realize that was a very bad idea, and now virtually no one wants to see that done again. Meanwhile, if a holy book claims that interest is illegal, very little can be done to allow interest in that society, even though we know that having credit is integral for an economy to grow. Reason can lead to us thinking that slavery is ok, but we can eventually change our minds. A holy book says that women get half the inheritance of men, and nothing can be done to change that.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  18. #78
    It's not an amount just a principle to go by. I think acts of the government need to be agreeable by the governed, and moral action should always be encouraged, but not coerced. There is rare occasion for the need of coercion.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    I'm sorry EyeKhan. These were just random examples of views off the top of my head that conservatives and liberals sometimes hold.
    Sorry for what? You took the time to bring them up so I posted my thoughts. Are you apologizing because you didn't take the time to read and comment?

    And who is going to be the fact checkers.
    The main advantage of this argument, and it's key problem, is you can use it to basically argue against doing anything to improve our civilization. I humbly believe that it is possible to build an institution with the ethical standards and the integrity to provide a truly objective assessment of truth and fact in many if not most cases. There will always be subtle and borderline cases that will remain a gray area where people would have to agree to disagree; in fact this would end up being the vast majority of disagreements because the blatant stuff would go away, which is of course the whole point.



    Well how far are you willing to take personal choice?
    This isn't rocket science. People should be allowed to do whatever they choose so long as unreasonable harm isn't done to someone else. A standard of reasonableness is longstanding in our legal system so don't bother going there. In the case of blackmailing an employee for sex, I think it's pretty clearly a violation of her free will and pretty clearly unreasonable harm. It doesn't have to be life and death - the ability to work, providing for yourself and or family is very important as well.



    Of course the rub is whose morality should reign supreme? If we choose democratically then we get into issues where some societies have more then 50% of people who want to live under Sharia law...
    That's the biggest pitfall of true democracy, the tyranny of the majority. There again has to be an objective institution to keep this sort of thing in check. In our case, the institution that has kept the religious fundies in check, in spite of the majority sentiment, has been the supreme court. It's not perfect, take the "in god we trust" on our money for an example of failure, but with a reference document to work from and a high degree of integrity, you can have a workable check on this kind of thing.
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  20. #80
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    That's the biggest pitfall of true democracy, the tyranny of the majority.
    True democracy is just that. What you're meaning is "ochlocracy", the rule of the mob.
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  21. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    This isn't rocket science. People should be allowed to do whatever they choose so long as unreasonable harm isn't done to someone else. A standard of reasonableness is longstanding in our legal system so don't bother going there. In the case of blackmailing an employee for sex, I think it's pretty clearly a violation of her free will and pretty clearly unreasonable harm. It doesn't have to be life and death - the ability to work, providing for yourself and or family is very important as well.
    This isn't as clearcut as you seem to believe. Philosophers have been grappling with this problem for a long time. For example, should I be allowed to grow flowers in my backyard if they worsen the allergies of my neighbor? What if I could sell those flowers for $1 million? What if it causes the allergies to get worse by 1%?
    Hope is the denial of reality

  22. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    There are tons of different types of secular morality and many are based on religious morality. My main interest is why some people think secular morality is innately more relevant then religious morality?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    My personal view of course is that both secular morality and religious morality are going to be deeply flawed if those are the only ways to run a country.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    Of course the rub is whose morality should reign supreme? If we choose democratically then we get into issues where some societies have more then 50% of people who want to live under Sharia law...
    That's why our constitution is unique, as a living document open to interpretation and changing contexts. Separation of church and state, the ability to make amendments, SCOTUS, etc.

    Holy books can have strict orthodox and fundamental sects, or liberal and fluid interpreters. But I don't see anyone adding "Scriptural Amendments" to the Bible, Torah or Koran.

  23. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    This isn't as clearcut as you seem to believe. Philosophers have been grappling with this problem for a long time. For example, should I be allowed to grow flowers in my backyard if they worsen the allergies of my neighbor? What if I could sell those flowers for $1 million? What if it causes the allergies to get worse by 1%?
    My knee jerk response is yes. OTOH, should you be allowed to grow poison ivy? Knee jerk, no, unless you have a fenced yard, perhaps. I think both of these questions are much less straightforward than whether it should be legal to require your employees to have sex with you against their will. These sorts of questions can, and have been, parsed out ad nauseum over human history. The interesting thing is what is considered reasonable does evolve over time, forcing them to be re-evaluated. But none of that means it's impossible or impractical to do.
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  24. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    Sorry for what? You took the time to bring them up so I posted my thoughts. Are you apologizing because you didn't take the time to read and comment?

    The main advantage of this argument, and it's key problem, is you can use it to basically argue against doing anything to improve our civilization. I humbly believe that it is possible to build an institution with the ethical standards and the integrity to provide a truly objective assessment of truth and fact in many if not most cases. There will always be subtle and borderline cases that will remain a gray area where people would have to agree to disagree; in fact this would end up being the vast majority of disagreements because the blatant stuff would go away, which is of course the whole point.



    This isn't rocket science. People should be allowed to do whatever they choose so long as unreasonable harm isn't done to someone else. A standard of reasonableness is longstanding in our legal system so don't bother going there. In the case of blackmailing an employee for sex, I think it's pretty clearly a violation of her free will and pretty clearly unreasonable harm. It doesn't have to be life and death - the ability to work, providing for yourself and or family is very important as well.



    That's the biggest pitfall of true democracy, the tyranny of the majority. There again has to be an objective institution to keep this sort of thing in check. In our case, the institution that has kept the religious fundies in check, in spite of the majority sentiment, has been the supreme court. It's not perfect, take the "in god we trust" on our money for an example of failure, but with a reference document to work from and a high degree of integrity, you can have a workable check on this kind of thing.
    Well it seemed like you put a lot of thought into the responses but I wasn't looking to discuss those individual points since they were just examples.

    Anyway I think we agree on the problems of the tyranny of the majority. However I don't think you can create a complete objective non-partisan organization. Possibly in a limited sense but not for major things. One politician may say that Reagan won the cold war and another can say he did not. Depending on your point of view you can come to legitimately different conclusions without deliberately stating falsehoods.

    Let me play devil's advocate for the sex with the secretary situation a little further. Clearly she does have a choice just to stop working there. She is not entitled to a job. Heck if we did not have laws on prostitution could not an owner make regular sex a job requirement? People would then be free to take or not take the job.

  25. #85
    Morality is what makes a difference between good and evil. Without it, fascism becomes acceptable and Adolf Hitler becomes a good option.
    The problem of politics is that it is not driven by morality, but driven by convenience.
    So they use moral arguments to justify their convenience. But politicians are more interested about controlling others instead of serving a population.
    So morality or not morality, politics is about the same. However, as population lose a sense of morality, anything becomes acceptable, and inmorality would prevail over morality within the society.
    One good example of this is how acceptable it has become to savebankers instead of saving citizens.
    Another example is how acceptable it has become that bankers abuse people.
    In the end bankers win and future generations will pay.
    Freedom - When people learn to embrace criticism about politicians, since politicians are just employees like you and me.

  26. #86
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    Let me play devil's advocate for the sex with the secretary situation a little further. Clearly she does have a choice just to stop working there. She is not entitled to a job. Heck if we did not have laws on prostitution could not an owner make regular sex a job requirement? People would then be free to take or not take the job.
    It would be in his rights - but from a moral perspective it would be wrong. Your example is not as complicated as you think it is.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  27. #87
    Wouldn't the public elect representatives who more or less represent their views? If 90% opposed gay marriage, would they really elect people who thought that a gay person's right to marriage is something to be protected?
    I really think the reasoning needs to go differenlty, and they need to adopt a agreeable premise throughout society that actions that are done in agreeable circumstances and don't violate other liberties should be legal. As in gay marriage, as in safely usuable drugs, essentially if you can do it without directly hurting others in an unagreeable fashion then it should be allowed. If that premise is agreed upon then as Wraith said issues of gay marriage will be allowed independant of whether you think it's worth doing, or moral.

    Also in reality, on this particular issues, I would wager the majority of the U.S. support it. I don't know how many "real americans" support it .

  28. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Lebanese Dragon View Post
    Also in reality, on this particular issues, I would wager the majority of the U.S. support it. I don't know how many "real americans" support it .
    I'm sure a lot more would claim to support principle than would actually follow through on it.

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