That's my point. The new Iraqi government went out of their way to criminalize everyone in the Hussein regime, which forced the latter to arms. I think Libya can avoid a civil war if it only punishes a handful of top officials (though there's a decent chance of small-scale fighting for the foreseeable future).Originally Posted by Steely Glint
Hope is the denial of reality
Half of them are working for the rebels now.if it only punishes a handful of top officials
The light that once I thought compassion still casting shadows in your action
The words you shared were cold transactions that bring me to curse what you've done
When you're up there absorbed in greatness with such success you've grown complacent
I hope you scorch your many faces when you fly too close to the sun
Those guys must have the most banal conversations. "Sky's blue, Barack." "Grass is green, David"2106: In a phone call about Libya, US President Barack Obama and British PM David Cameron "agreed that the situation had reached a tipping point and that Gaddafi needed to relinquish power once and for all," says the White House.
The light that once I thought compassion still casting shadows in your action
The words you shared were cold transactions that bring me to curse what you've done
When you're up there absorbed in greatness with such success you've grown complacent
I hope you scorch your many faces when you fly too close to the sun
Last week's important conversation:
"Barack, we're the #1 Cricket team in the world", "So what David, you invented the sport. That's like us saying we're #1 in baseball".
Newsflash; Libya is in a full flung civil war.
Congratulations America
Barely. This is hardly a "full flung civil war", it is a revolution, but its hardly a major one. A quite defining part of this revolution is how little either side has actually wanted to fight with the other. Loki mocks them "running away" but seen many quotes from fighters (on both sides) saying they don't want to shoot on their fellow Lybians. Compare this to full-scale bloodletting in the likes of the Congo or Rwanda etc and its not in the same league.
I found this comment somone made on Information Dissemination to be useful:
The jury's still out, but I would argue the opposite: the five month "stalemate" was a good thing for Libya.
Why? Because the likelihood of a post-Ghadaffi power vacuum is lower now than it was back in March. The rebels have had time to set-up (weak) governing institutions, train security forces, reach out to foreign advisors and emigres, create a shared narrative of struggle and sacrifice, and create a balance of power between the various factions (including settling some old scores). It's the kind of stuff that brought together 13 colonies into a union once...
Your preferred alternative was an overnight collapse of state institutions. Didn't Iraq teach us a thing or two about that? Sure, the rebels may all start cutting each others' throats tomorrow, but at least there's a small window of opportunity.
The light that once I thought compassion still casting shadows in your action
The words you shared were cold transactions that bring me to curse what you've done
When you're up there absorbed in greatness with such success you've grown complacent
I hope you scorch your many faces when you fly too close to the sun
Agreed 100% - had this been too easy then that might not be a positive. Hopefully they'll think now they've struggled enough and want to move on.
Can you blame them? I probably wouldn't bother getting shot (or shooting someone else) over Gaddafi either.
Contrary to Loki's mockery, what's going on isn't cowardice or even uselessness, but what's referred to as "ritual warfare," which was actually a rather common practice before Europeans arrived on the scene and taught the world a lesson or six in the bloodbath that is "real" warfare. It's kind of a neat approach to the problem, when you think about it - you want a political objective badly enough to go to war, but both sides are in agreement that the bloodshed should be kept to a minimum, so they shoot in each others general direction without actually shooting at each other, avoid full-out battles, and generally turn the whole thing into an exercise in maneuver and position, rather than the modern, Western norm of piling up incomprehensibly high body counts.
When you really think about it, the humongous waste of "normal" war is really the senseless and absurd approach, not this "ritual warfare" practice where the objective becomes to win by out-maneuvering your opponent and putting him in an untenable position.... while still preserving your troops (resources) as best you can. Hell, it's even the way the best European mercenary companies waged war at various times throughout history, so it's not foreign to our culture(s) either. It makes sense. If you can win without having to lose lots of highly skilled, well trained (and thus, expensive) men, why not? Likewise, if you can lose and not end up dead in a huge heap of corpses, well, that's probably an option worth exploring too...
"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
-- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.
I don't quite follow how losing all your ammunition while killing no one, or how being unable to hold ground after capturing it is a good thing. I should also note that when one side isn't being this incompetent, the other side loses pretty damn quickly.
Hope is the denial of reality
Yes, because your understanding is (or at least seems to be) hopelessly locked to the idea of war's objective being to kill the enemy. This is not the case. War is about politics - moving borders, transferring power, controlling resources. That's the objective. Generally speaking, this need not involve lots of killing and dying. Think of this "ritual combat" as a method of conflict resolution involving odd rituals and firearms if that helps, because, in essence, that's a description you can apply to war in general and ritual warfare in particular. And if it doesn't help, use the Google, and maybe you'll read something on the interwebs that does help.
You're simply applying priorities to the combatants that they [for the most part] don't share. "Hold ground at the cost of lives." "Shoot to kill." Well, guess what? They disagree. Why kill or die to hold an objective when they can leave, return in greater numbers and re-take the objective without risking the loss of life? Why shoot to kill when they can maneuver into an advantageous position and get their opponents (who are also their "brothers," apparently *shrug*) to lay down arms peaceably? Why waste all those human resources over a piece of shit like Gaddafi? Makes sense to me.
Now, in the final phases, as some of Gaddafi's loyalist forces make last-ditch stands and fight to the death (according to the journalists on site, at least) you see the limitations of ritual combat (only works so long as both sides agree to it), but even so, a few hundred or thousand combatants actually trying to kill either is much less bloody and wasteful than a few hundred thousand. Why spill all that blood if you don't have to, when you can resolve your conflict by largely cruising around the desert in your pick-up truck, firing off your weapon like a drunken redneck and occasionally coming into town to resupply? Strikes me as a much more civilized approach to warfare than what we're used to. Hell, throw in some good tunes, some hot chicks, and some cold beers, and you've got yourself a party... can't say that about traditional combat, can ya?
"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
-- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.
BREAKING NEWS: Rebel forces have liberated Qaddafi's golf cartand, additionally, burnt down his tent.
The light that once I thought compassion still casting shadows in your action
The words you shared were cold transactions that bring me to curse what you've done
When you're up there absorbed in greatness with such success you've grown complacent
I hope you scorch your many faces when you fly too close to the sun
It seems the whole world and their dog now recognise the NTC as the true government of Lybia (the UK/US/France have for a while), they control the capital now, Gaddafi is in hiding ...
... So at what stage will the media stop referring to the "rebels"? The BBC still refers to Gaddafi as "the Lybian leader", his forces (what's left of them) as "pro-government" forces - why? What's he leading? Who recognises him as such now - not our government, his people ... the radio last night referred to him in the news as "former leader", I prefer that.
BBC seems to have taken to referring to them as "loyalists" now. Also, fun fact.
On the way home, Radio 4 news trailed their Libya stories with "evidence of revenge attacks by both sides", before going on to reveal evidence of Gaddaffi soldiers torturing and executing rebel prisoners. I was just checking if "both sides" now means "just one side" and no one had told me?
The light that once I thought compassion still casting shadows in your action
The words you shared were cold transactions that bring me to curse what you've done
When you're up there absorbed in greatness with such success you've grown complacent
I hope you scorch your many faces when you fly too close to the sun
Gotta be impartial, dontcha know.
But: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44270675.../#.Tlalaainl_w
Qaddafi is such an epic creeper.
http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmem...rice_photo.php
Qaddafi Hearts Condi? Condoleezza Rice Photo Album Found In Libyan Leader's Compound
David Taintor | August 25, 2011, 9:08AM
The first images to come from the Libyan rebels' ransacking of deposed leader Muammar Qaddafi's compound in Tripoli were fun but fairly benign: fighters brandishing their spoils including his cherished cap, gold chain and a golf cart.
But also discovered in the compound is a photo album of former Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice. As MSNBC reports, Rice visited Tripoli in 2008. She and Qaddafi ate dinner during a brief time where Qaddafi was being welcomed back into the international community.
And in a 2007 interview with al-Jazeera, according to MSNBC, Qaddafi said of Rice: "I support my darling black African woman. I admire and am very proud of the way she leans back and gives orders to the Arab leaders ... Leezza, Leezza, Leezza. ... I love her very much. I admire her and I'm proud of her because she's a black woman of African origin."
See the pictures below:
Well, that's not weird.
The light that once I thought compassion still casting shadows in your action
The words you shared were cold transactions that bring me to curse what you've done
When you're up there absorbed in greatness with such success you've grown complacent
I hope you scorch your many faces when you fly too close to the sun
Frankly, I'm just relieved it was a human woman, and not camel-porn. You just can't be completely sure in that part of the world, and that's not an image you want seared into your mind's eye.
"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
-- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.
Seems like he's dead.
There are contradictory reports.
Most the sources agree he's pretty good and dead. The only variations I've seen are how, either via firefight, after capture, and/or NATO airstrike.
"In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."
I hope he's learned his lesson.
The light that once I thought compassion still casting shadows in your action
The words you shared were cold transactions that bring me to curse what you've done
When you're up there absorbed in greatness with such success you've grown complacent
I hope you scorch your many faces when you fly too close to the sun
He really shouldn't have worn those silly suits...
Such is Life...
There is a video floating around of him being captured and dragged around before dying.
Its really depressing, very savage behavior from the rebels or whatever we are calling them now
"In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."
I could have had class. I could have been a contender.
I could have been somebody. Instead of a bum
Which is what I am
I aim at the stars
But sometimes I hit London
Because up until now, it's been a peaceful and civilized civil war?Its really depressing, very savage behavior from the rebels or whatever we are calling them now
"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
-- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.
Interesting how people that are now concerned that a piece of shit like Ghadaffi got what he deserved, were never heard from when Ghadaffi's victims were tortured, maimed and killed.
It's also very easy to criticize the actions of people in an active war zone from behind your safe screen.
Will the US, France, UK or NATO be reimbursed from Qaddafi's assets?
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