Should would-be citizens have to learn the National Anthem?

[Loki]

Because Africa was a much better continent before the 19th century...

[Aimless]

Well there's an argument for slavery and ruthless exploitation if ever I heard one. No doubt you guys are feeling prouder by the minute

[Khendraja'aro]

Yeah, that argument must've worked really well in US courts: "Well, your honor, the natives here in America were such a lawless and barbaric bunch, we only did them a favour!"

[Loki]

Well there's an argument for slavery and ruthless exploitation if ever I heard one. No doubt you guys are feeling prouder by the minute

Slavery in Africa was going on long before the white man stepped foot there and it would still be widespread if not for Britain. Britain was single-handedly responsible for ending the trans-continental slave trade as well.

[RandBlade]

Well there's an argument for slavery and ruthless exploitation if ever I heard one. No doubt you guys are feeling prouder by the minute

Slavery in Africa was going on long before the white man stepped foot there and it would still be widespread if not for Britain. Britain was single-handedly responsible for ending the trans-continental slave trade as well.

Exactly. British Colonialism had many problems, slavery was not caused by it but was finished by it.

[Aimless]

Slavery in Africa was going on long before the white man stepped foot there and it would still be widespread if not for Britain. Britain was single-handedly responsible for ending the trans-continental slave trade as well.

Of course, but one good deed does not erase centuries of villainy I was however talking about the US, so a little tangent. As for slavery in Africa, well

[Steely Glint]

Yeah, that was a good one. One of our finer hours.

[Loki]

Well there's an argument for slavery and ruthless exploitation if ever I heard one. No doubt you guys are feeling prouder by the minute

How's that relevant to Khen's absurd claim that British colonialism was responsible for the current state of Africa?

[Steely Glint]

He shouldn't say things like that when really it was the French.

[Aimless]

How's that relevant to Khen's absurd claim that British colonialism was responsible for the current state of Africa?

Not to mention that his own country (and pretty much all the other European countries as well, while we're at it) plays a large part in why Africa is generally such a chaotic continent. Colonialism with its arbitrary drawing of borders really didn't do them any favours.

[Loki]

Ignoring the fact that the vast majority of African conflicts have little to do with international borders.

[Aimless]

I can't comment on that, you'll have to look for someone with more knowledge of Africa's history and who also has some integrity

[Loki]

Hopefully none of your patients ever make an argument you disagree with. Wouldn't want to hear about an unnecessary amputation on the news.

[Aimless]

Are you high? You can't go a single day without meeting patients you disagree with or who disagree with you. What was the point you were trying to make?

[Khendraja'aro]

Ignoring the fact that the vast majority of African conflicts have little to do with international borders.

Yeah, there's of course the present schemes by the G20 which are disguised as "developmental aid" which in reality don't really help the countries in question.

I'm thinking of stuff like building dams for hydroelectrical power where the money for said dams flows right back to the G20 because the locals don't possess the expertise to build it.

[RandBlade]

Because providing clean, cheap and sustainable electricity to other people is in our interests solely.

If we wanted to spend billions on creating jobs we could just as easily to it at home - and end up with the infrastructure here.

[Knux897]

Exactly. British Colonialism had many problems, slavery was not caused by it but was finished by it.

But wasn't that because it was cheaper to exploit workers who worked for next to nothing rather than housing, feeding and providing other essentials for slaves?

[Khendraja'aro]

Because providing clean, cheap and sustainable electricity to other people is in our interests solely.

If we wanted to spend billions on creating jobs we could just as easily to it at home - and end up with the infrastructure here.

Those dams are not cheap. And they're also not clean - they usually involve massive ecological damages due to the flooding of large areas which also require displacement of former residents. Just because it's "water" it's not automatically clean.

And, as I said, it's a cheap trick - the giving countries "donate" money for the project which, due to the lack of experts and professionals in the project country, flows right back to the giving countries. Which means that the money intended for developing countries just turned into industry subventions. Genius, really. You get to say: "Hey, but we did something for those poor devils!" and you get to support your own industry at the same time.

[RandBlade]

But wasn't that because it was cheaper to exploit workers who worked for next to nothing rather than housing, feeding and providing other essentials for slaves?

No, it was because for centuries slavery was viewed as wrong.

Had it been a simple case of cheaper we could just not use slaves ourselves, but instead we reached out and enforced a global ban on the slave trade and fought for stopping it.

[Aimless]

No, it was because for centuries slavery was viewed as wrong.

Had it been a simple case of cheaper we could just not use slaves ourselves, but instead we reached out and enforced a global ban on the slave trade and fought for stopping it.

And no doubt you were loved by your enemies for that

[Asmodian]

I don’t understand what is the point of learning a national anthem if the person does not want to is that some sort of patriotism test?
The arguments raised against it are pretty bad as I believe that a language test would be much more appropriate, you are coming to live in a country you should probably have a good command of the language. I agree that if your nations main song prompts a gag reflex from you, you should probably pick a different country to live in. When I was applying to Swiss citizenship I sang the Swiss national anthem together with the rest of the people, but we were handed the words and it was a fun moment. If I was required to learn it by heart I would have done so but it would not have made me more patriotic about Switzerland. Just seems a useless bureaucratic obstacle.
On the other hand screening immigrants and accepting only those that have an increased chance to be successful i.e. education, wealth is a very good idea. What exactly is the benefit of accepting an uneducated 60 year old, with no education, and no money to be your citizen. Yes it is a nice thing to do especially if his country in a state of war, but you is essentially forcing this charitable act on all your citizens.

[Steely Glint]

But wasn't that because it was cheaper to exploit workers who worked for next to nothing rather than housing, feeding and providing other essentials for slaves?

I don't think it was cheaper to deploy a squadron of ships off Africa with the sole purpose of intercepting slave ships and freeing their cargo.

[Aimless]

I dunno man, first they establish and perfect the Atlantic slave trade and then after amassing slave-generated wealth and kicking the industrial revolution into gear they realise that the slave trade is kinda useless to them but totally awesome for Holland, Spain, France... and then a couple of decades later it's like, hey slavery itself is also bad! I dunno. Sounds like good strategy as much as it sounds like good principles. Don't get me wrong, I'm still glad it happened, better late than never!

[Steely Glint]

There's more than a bit of truth in that, but the picture is also more complex and it's wrong to say there wasn't a moral dimension to the policy.

[Loki]

I dunno man, first they establish and perfect the Atlantic slave trade and then after amassing slave-generated wealth and kicking the industrial revolution into gear they realise that the slave trade is kinda useless to them but totally awesome for Holland, Spain, France... and then a couple of decades later it's like, hey slavery itself is also bad! I dunno. Sounds like good strategy as much as it sounds like good principles. Don't get me wrong, I'm still glad it happened, better late than never!

First of all, the Portuguese were the first to establish the trans-atlantic slave trade. Secondly, slavery was still profitable in British Caribbean colonies when the British banned slavery. Thirdly, the main "victims" of the British enforcement of the slavery ban were the Portuguese and the Spanish, neither of whom was a British enemy (in fact, the Portuguese were a close ally). And lastly, there was genuine British sentiment (from the public and elites) to enforce the slavery ban. The possession of slaves was one of the main reasons the British didn't join the Confederacy in the US Civil War.

[RandBlade]

I dunno man, first they establish and perfect the Atlantic slave trade...

I don't think it was established by England, the Spanish and Portugese crossed the Atlantic long before us and the Spanish were quite keen on slaves I believe.

EDIT: Sorry just seen Loki's reply. Wasn't there concern that the British might join with the Confederacy and that was one of (not the main by far) the reasons for the Emancipation Proclamation?

[Steely Glint]

I don't think joining with the Confederacy was ever likely except in the minds of Confederate leaders. What was on the table was recognition by Britain and France and Britain pushing for mediation and an end to the war, which would have been a de facto Confederate victory. However, doing so would have meant antagonizing with the United States for no appreciable benefit - the UK being far more dependent at that time on grain from the North than cotton from the South. The Emancipation Proclamation just sealed the deal.

The Slave Trade was established by the Portuguese, but by the British were the ones who really went to town on it and the majority of slaves that were moved across the Atlantic were moved by British traders.

[Aimless]

First of all, the Portuguese were the first to establish the trans-atlantic slave trade. Secondly, slavery was still profitable in British Caribbean colonies when the British banned slavery. Thirdly, the main "victims" of the British enforcement of the slavery ban were the Portuguese and the Spanish, neither of whom was a British enemy (in fact, the Portuguese were a close ally). And lastly, there was genuine British sentiment (from the public and elites) to enforce the slavery ban. The possession of slaves was one of the main reasons the British didn't join the Confederacy in the US Civil War.

I don't have any primary sources, but:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_slave_trade

The Second Atlantic system was the trade of enslaved Africans by mostly British, Portuguese, French and Dutch traders. The main destinations of this phase were the Caribbean colonies and Brazil, as European nations built up economically slave-dependent colonies in the New World. [41] Only slightly more than 3% of the enslaved people exported were traded between 1450 and 1600, 16% in the 17th century.

It is estimated that more than half of the slave trade took place during the 18th century, with the British, Portuguese and French being the main carriers of nine out of ten slaves abducted from Africa. [42] The British were the biggest transporters of slaves across the[43] ]

So I guess we mean different things with the word "established".

Moreover:

http://www.h-net.org/reviews/showrev.php?id=8918
http://economics.stanford.edu/files/Darity11_16.pdf

And who did the brits sell slaves to btw? As for enemies, I used the word as a poor synonym for "competitors" and "rivals" but I suppose it's possible that Britain had nothing to gain from shafting the economies of other empires.

I have no doubt there was strong public moral-based support for the abolition of the slave trade or for the later abolition of slavery. I do doubt however that RB's and David Cameron's portrayals are accurate

[Steely Glint]

And who did the brits sell slaves to btw?

Other Brits in the colonies. Who owned, for example, plantations.

[Aimless]

Other Brits in the colonies. Who owned, for example, plantations.

Naturally but I thought half of them were sold off the french colonies, eg. one of the ones Britain later tried and failed to conquer.