The Last to Fall

[EyeKhan]

About the same time you realize that's not what I've been talking about. You're using numbers and metrics, fine. Go write a research paper.

This thread took off with What have we learned?

I'm saying we've learned how to fight in new ways, seemingly benign ways. There are still attempts at genocide (some want to wipe Israel off the map, remember?), religious wars, various forms of slavery, sex slaves, yadayada.


<anecdote: I grew up hiding under school desks to prepare for nuclear fall-out. Now they have bars on the doors, CCTV, code reds, police patrol the hallways. People blow up schools and shoot kids and teachers. We know more and educate better....but the overall picture hasn't changed that much. The ability of one loony tunes to take out thousands of people tips the scale. They don't have to be part of an army or government.>

[GGT]

Whatsamatter, ChoobieKhan? That someone doesn't concur with your world view, or isn't as enlightened about Humanity as you are?

[Being]

Whatsamatter, ChoobieKhan? That someone doesn't concur with your world view, or isn't as enlightened about Humanity as you are?

http://www.theworldforgotten.com/sho...0-gonnagothere

[Steely Glint]

Billy, 6, is learning to ride his bike. He falls of 6 times. After more practice, he falls off twice. He clearly has not learned that falling off his bike hurts.

[EyeKhan]

Whatsamatter, ChoobieKhan? That someone doesn't concur with your world view, or isn't as enlightened about Humanity as you are?

No, just frustrated at nonsensical the-sky-is-green 'discussion.' I don't have enough time to keep wasting it like that.

[GGT]

<snip>

Cultural evolution is part of the Human Condition. I don't believe humanity can't get better vis a vis cruelty and violence. I think to deny we are better today than we were 30 / 60 / 90 / 500 / 2000 years ago completely flys in the face of observed reality.

We've already agreed our hive behaviors are improved, and culturally our standards of 'what's acceptable' are better. You want to compare 21st century to previous times; I'm looking at each time according to its own/higher standards.

We'll always look better than Neanderthal. We'll always seem smarter than when the world was thought to be flat. We'll probably look cruel and violent to anyone in 2525, maybe even barbaric.


You asked about Humanity, not certain cultures. We're smart enough, with plenty of information about the whole globe, which makes us just as violent and cruel as ever before---not in rates of war, academic definitions of conflicts with force, or numbers on a graph, but in context.

I already said why. Military forces are all over the world, armed conflict or civil war is somewhere all the time. (Israelis are issued gas masks.) Gangs, organized crime, human trafficking, terrorism, piracy (groups); gun violence, rapes and murders, sexual exploitation (individuals).

Cruelty is defined differently now, some even argue apathy can be cruel or lead to genocide (sub-saharan Africa). Violence has new terms, too. Environmentalism and energy policy might be taken to that level---trashing our planet is a sure way to wipe out our future---and we KNOW that.

I can give a pass to previous generations who didn't know any better, couldn't even read, certainly had no science information to explain the world (let alone neuroscience or human behaviors) kill or be killed, lived hand-to-mouth. The bar gets higher with each generation, and ours is pretty high now.

And Free Will? No, we don't have Free Will, but that doesn't mean we don't change and evolve.

You're using the term 'evolution' loosely. Societies' expectations of behavior have improved, yes we agreed! Even excluding non-violent criminals, we have the highest prison populations in history. But human nature hasn't 'evolved' as much as you think. Lord of the Flies and all that. Just one disaster and we see looting, violence, riots; people revert and regress fairly fast.


Yeah, mocking is fun, all the cool kids are doing it Put 25 unsupervised 6 yr olds in a room and they'll act just like 6 yr olds did in the 19th century. They'll argue about sharing, bite and pull hair, maybe kick or hit. We don't come out of the womb as peaceful, loving creatures.

[GGT]

No, just frustrated at nonsensical the-sky-is-green 'discussion.' I don't have enough time to keep wasting it like that.

So now you want an anger pill AND a frustration pill with your morning coffee?

You have plenty of time to 'waste' on the forum, you do that all the time.

[EyeKhan]

We've already agreed our hive behaviors are improved, and culturally our standards of 'what's acceptable' are better. You want to compare 21st century to previous times; I'm looking at each time according to its own/higher standards.

The initial statement was that humanity has learned nothing vis a vis violence and cruelty since WW1. Not a comparison to what our expectations are for ourselves at any given time.

I'm not even sure what the heck you mean by a comparison to iteslf in its own time. You mean to say humanity never looks at itself at a given time and approves of how violent it is to itself? Ok, I guess. Maybe that's why we keep striving to do better? :shrug:

We'll always look better than Neanderthal.

Not necessarily. There is some suggestion that we, homo sapiens, murdered the Neanderthals.

You asked about Humanity, not certain cultures. We're smart enough, with plenty of information about the whole globe, which makes us just as violent and cruel as ever before---not in rates of war, academic definitions of conflicts with force, or numbers on a graph, but in context.

I totally disagree and I think the preponderance of evidence supports me to the point that my contention is not an opinion.

I can give a pass to previous generations who didn't know any better, couldn't even read, certainly had no science information to explain the world (let alone neuroscience or human behaviors) kill or be killed, lived hand-to-mouth. The bar gets higher with each generation, and ours is pretty high now.

GG - what does "learning" mean to you??? I'm contending we learned to be better to each other. Here you give the brutes of the past a pass because they didn't know any better. Are you saying we've LEARNED SOMETHING SINCE BACK THEN?

You're using the term 'evolution' loosely.

I think culture evolves, loosely, like biological evolution. And I think, in terms of guiding / limiting / enabling our behavior, culture is a more rigid than we typically think.

Lord of the Flies and all that. Just one disaster and we see looting, violence, riots; people revert and regress fairly fast.

#1. Lord of the Flies was a work of fiction.

#2. What you're talking about is human behavior when cultural influence breaks down. Its completely in agreement with my arguments. "Learning" and "culture" are external to the human organism. Strip it away and of course we revert to more primitive behavior.

So now you want an anger pill AND a frustration pill with your morning coffee?

You have plenty of time to 'waste' on the forum, you do that all the time.

GG - you talk in circles and deny the obvious, invent things to argue against that weren't part of the argument to begin with, support what I say and then tell me you disagree because you're arguing against something else. <see above> It feels like wasting time.

[GGT]

The initial statement was that humanity has learned nothing vis a vis violence and cruelty since WW1. Not a comparison to what our expectations are for ourselves at any given time.

Stop right there. I did not say that. It's like you're continuing a conversation with Nessus, not anything I've said.

~snip~

GG - you talk in circles and deny the obvious, invent things to argue against that weren't part of the argument to begin with, support what I say and then tell me you disagree because you're arguing against something else. <see above> It feels like wasting time.

You'll live. And you'll continue to bring up the Human Condition or Free Will in every fucking thread you can. We'll live with that, too.

If you want to have a propah debate about Wars and historical stats, the numbers folks are in here to argue with.

If you want to explore violence in general, or what future War might look like, or measure it by deaths alone, we can probably tackle that too. Otherwise the thread comes full circle: Last living Canadian WWI vet has died. RIP. Aren't we glad it's history now?

[EyeKhan]

Stop right there. I did not say that. It's like you're continuing a conversation with Nessus, not anything I've said.

If you look at how our discussion began, it was you jumping in to defend the point Nessus was making. Now, when exactly did you abandon that topic, because I've never been discussing anything else.

You'll live. And you'll continue to bring up the Human Condition or Free Will in every fucking thread you can. We'll live with that, too.

If you want to have a propah debate about Wars and historical stats, the numbers folks are in here to argue with.

If you want to explore violence in general, or what future War might look like, or measure it by deaths alone, we can probably tackle that too. Otherwise the thread comes full circle: Last living Canadian WWI vet has died. RIP. Aren't we glad it's history now?

All I've ever been trying to point out is that the comment "we've learned nothing" in regards to war, violence and cruelty in general, is false. I never pretended otherwise.

And I don't bring the Human Condition or Free Will into every thread. They are already there in any discussion about social whatever-the-heck and at worst I point that out. And typically it's ignored. And if a comment on free will or the human condition is tossed my way - like you did in this thread - I reserve the right to make my own comment in return. Its pretty crappy of you to attack me with this when you are the one who brought the two topics up.

[GGT]

If you look at how our discussion began, it was you jumping in to defend the point Nessus was making. Now, when exactly did you abandon that topic, because I've never been discussing anything else.

I jumped in when the rhetorical question of What Have We Learned and posted some lyrics from the 60's.

All I've ever been trying to point out is that the comment "we've learned nothing" in regards to war, violence and cruelty in general, is false. I never pretended otherwise.

Nessie hasn't posted in this thread for a while, doubt she's even following it now.

And I don't bring the Human Condition or Free Will into every thread. They are already there in any discussion about social whatever-the-heck and at worst I point that out. And typically it's ignored. And if a comment on free will or the human condition is tossed my way - like you did in this thread - I reserve the right to make my own comment in return. Its pretty crappy of you to attack me with this when you are the one who brought the two topics up.

Now I'm attacking you and being crappy? Really.

Now that I've read about Stanley your bad mood makes sense, but please don't take it out on me in a thread about war.

We need a peace sign smilie here.

[EyeKhan]

I jumped in when the rhetorical question of What Have We Learned and posted some lyrics from the 60's.

All I've ever been talking to you about is the Nessus comment and my disagreement. That's it. If you thought otherwise it was a simple misunderstanding.

Now I'm attacking you and being crappy? Really.

Yes. How else do you characterize this: "And you'll continue to bring up the Human Condition or Free Will in every fucking thread you can. We'll live with that, too. "

[GGT]

Same way as others telling me I go into "random circular tangential streams of consciousness" postings.

We're not total strangers here. Our posting styles, histories and idiosyncratic ways aren't necessarily bad or ugly, they just ARE.



Back on track (if you want to continue) we've learned many things about war and violence. Sometimes I think we go overboard in our good intentions, by defining every little thing as violence. Like parental spanking or childhood bullying. Or weaponry--nail scissors or butter knives.

Going by the media and mostly all governments, we have a WAR against poverty, a WAR on Terrorism, a WAR against extremism, a WAR on drugs, a WAR is brewing everywhere at all times. But we can't define the terms very well.

[agamemnus]

Yeah, mocking is fun, all the cool kids are doing it Put 25 unsupervised 6 yr olds in a room and they'll act just like 6 yr olds did in the 19th century. They'll argue about sharing, bite and pull hair, maybe kick or hit. We don't come out of the womb as peaceful, loving creatures.

They'll be too fat to do anything except sit and argue.

[Hazir]

No, Ogre, we haven't learned anything. The polarization of the globe that took place after World War Two also meant that the storm of a third world war would, probably very literally, end the human species, not to mention wreak havoc with the rest of the biosphere. Loonies with their loony logic could no longer justify things escalating to the point of war, because only after the invent of the atomic spark did we finally guarantee that the loonies themselves wouldn't have a world to lord over after the bombs fell. Less developed nations still engage in full-scale "classical" warfare, and it is not even two decades since the last mass-scale genocide on European soil. And your nation wages perpetual war because apparently Vietnam was fun times for everybody.

What has anyone learned? Certainly nothing from the mistakes of generations before them. Death and torture are the only sure-fire professions in this world, if you have the knack for them.

And when exactly did this WW III take place? Looks to me that something was learned after all.

[Hazir]

About the same time you realize that's not what I've been talking about. You're using numbers and metrics, fine. Go write a research paper.

This thread took off with What have we learned?

I'm saying we've learned how to fight in new ways, seemingly benign ways. There are still attempts at genocide (some want to wipe Israel off the map, remember?), religious wars, various forms of slavery, sex slaves, yadayada.


<anecdote: I grew up hiding under school desks to prepare for nuclear fall-out. Now they have bars on the doors, CCTV, code reds, police patrol the hallways. People blow up schools and shoot kids and teachers. We know more and educate better....but the overall picture hasn't changed that much. The ability of one loony tunes to take out thousands of people tips the scale. They don't have to be part of an army or government.>

Seems like somebody missed the point where we started to believe that rape was possible inside marriage.