Our "arab spring" is coming :)

[Enoch the Red]

FOR THE EVENTS. No new stadium or other infrastructure is built specifically for the Super Bowl, Stanley Cup Finals, or Champions League Finals.

That actually isn't necessarily true. Having a maintenance/construction push on infrastructure, especially roads is fairly common before an event of that size. The stadium also has to have a minimum capacity for the city to be chosen. I know of several examples where cities built, or rebuilt stadiums in order to fulfill those criteria.

Now, I'm not sure many cities would say they specifically built a stadium or maintained roads just for a single event, but it is absolutely a consideration.

That being said, I agree with the thrust of your argument. There is a considerable difference in scale between the Olympics/World Cup and the Super Bowl.

[GGT]

Well, like I said....our "systems" are very different. Feel free to disagree, but UK publicly funded infrastructure, transit, and education/academics doesn't rely on Sports like the US does. Does Oxford University give full scholarships for really great boat rowers?

[GGT]

That actually isn't necessarily true. Having a maintenance/construction push on infrastructure, especially roads is fairly common before an event of that size. The stadium also has to have a minimum capacity for the city to be chosen. I know of several examples where cities built, or rebuilt stadiums in order to fulfill those criteria.

Now, I'm not sure many cities would say they specifically built a stadium or maintained roads just for a single event, but it is absolutely a consideration.

That being said, I agree with the thrust of your argument. There is a considerable difference in scale between the Olympics/World Cup and the Super Bowl.

Hey, fellow Hoosier. Does the larger argument need to be limited by scale, when we're debating principle?


Edit: That's my attempt to bring this back to the OP and Brazilian protests. It's almost a no-brainer when 1/3 or 1/4 of any populace isn't fully employed, and can't rely on "higher education" (and its educational debt) to improve their economic situation.

As Kerbie said, While 1 in 2 Brazilians don´t have basic sanitation. They spent 3,5 billion from tax payers to build new or reform old football stadiums!! No wonder they are upset.

[Enoch the Red]

Hey, fellow Hoosier. Does the larger argument need to be limited by scale, when we're debating principle?

I don't agree in principle with public funding being used for private events period, including subsidizing the construction of stadiums.

However, that was not what is being argued. The World Cup and Olympics require vast investments of resources that will often either not be used again, or used infrequently. The Stanley Cup, Superbowl, and other large events typically use existing infrastructure that might be augmented slightly, not constructed from whole cloth, as is often the case with the Olympics and World Cup.

[GGT]

I don't agree in principle with public funding being used for private events, including subsidizing the construction of stadiums period.

However, that was not what is being argued. The World Cup and Olympics require vast investments of resources that will often either not be used again, or used infrequently. The Stanley Cup, Superbowl, and other large events typically use existing infrastructure that might be augmented slightly, not constructed from whole cloth, as is often the case with the Olympics and World Cup.

Seems to me the "main argument", as outlined in the OP, revolves around millions of people being pissed off by politicians....who make legislative (and tax) decisions favoring their main donors, instead of serving the general populace. That's not a model for fair, just, democratic representation.

US voters/constituents share a similar beef with Brazilians. But we're more likely to be blinded by intent as an expression of principle.

[RandBlade]

With respect to the World Cup there's no need to have major "investment" for that either. Most host nations could/should have a number of pre-existing World Class football stadiums for their clubs.

It is a bit of an ego trip for FIFA/The IOC that there should be development.

[GGT]

With respect to the World Cup there's no need to have major "investment" for that either. Most host nations could/should have a number of pre-existing World Class football stadiums for their clubs.

You mean soccer stadiums. The US doesn't have soccer "clubs" like the UK...we have soccer "teams" that are hinged to public education facilities.

[GGT]

It is a bit of an ego trip for FIFA/The IOC that there should be development.

Please explain. If "host nations" should have World Class facilities already in place, in order to win the bid....then venues would rarely change.

[RandBlade]

You mean soccer stadiums. The US doesn't have soccer "clubs" like the UK...we have soccer "teams" that are hinged to public education facilities.

No I mean football, that's one of the F's in FIFA.

Please explain. If "host nations" should have World Class facilities already in place, in order to win the bid....then venues would rarely change.

They wouldn't need to but in order to stroke the ego of FIFA/The IOC bids normally include development that would only happen if they win the rights to host.

[Flixy]

To be fair, almost no countries have enough stadiums of the right size and safety and service class. There's a stadium ranking by FIFA or UEFA, and for example the Netherlands only has four in the highest class, as far as I know. Only those are, for example, eligible for CL or EL finals. And those are still too small for a world cup final. A world cup simply brings out far greater numbers of fans than most clubs in the world.

For example, in my hometown, PSV is one of the biggest clubs in the Netherlands (almost always top three) and the stadium seats 35k. Enough for most matches they have, but too small for a world cup.

[Flixy]

And ggt, that is simply not true, you have major league soccer, not related to education facilities as far as I know.

[Ominous Gamer]

To give her the benefit of the doubt, pro US soccer is laughably small, I would not be surprised at all if some of the teams played in educational stadiums. On the flip side we have plenty of college sports teams that use pro stadiums.

[Flixy]

To give her the benefit of the doubt, pro US soccer is laughably small, I would not be surprised at all if some of the teams played in educational stadiums. On the flip side we have plenty of college sports teams that use pro stadiums.

I only know LA galaxy, and just because they signed Beckham to be honest Looked it up, and their stadium is located on a campus, but not owned by it, nor are the main tenants. Which makes me wonder why it's even on a campus in the first place..

[RandBlade]

To be fair, almost no countries have enough stadiums of the right size and safety and service class. There's a stadium ranking by FIFA or UEFA, and for example the Netherlands only has four in the highest class, as far as I know. Only those are, for example, eligible for CL or EL finals. And those are still too small for a world cup final. A world cup simply brings out far greater numbers of fans than most clubs in the world.

For example, in my hometown, PSV is one of the biggest clubs in the Netherlands (almost always top three) and the stadium seats 35k. Enough for most matches they have, but too small for a world cup.

That's why IIRC if the Netherlands has sought to host the World Cup they've sought to do so in tandem with another nation. It's not that your stadiums alone are too small and new ones will be built, its that your nation is

Plenty of World Class English, German etc clubs for it to be hosted with no development necessary

[Flixy]

That's why IIRC if the Netherlands has sought to host the World Cup they've sought to do so in tandem with another nation. It's not that your stadiums alone are too small and new ones will be built, its that your nation is

Plenty of World Class English, German etc clubs for it to be hosted with no development necessary

Aye, but for the world cup bid this stadium, for example, would have to be upgraded to 45k. And yeah, England and Germany are probably okay (though I'm not even sure they have enough), you need eight stadiums I think), but most countries don't. If you host it in, say, South Africa, or Poland/Ukraine, you're bound to have to improve a bunch of stadiums, or build new ones. And in those countries, improving infrastructure and other facilities isn't really unwarranted, either. My main annoyance is that FIFA gets all the profits, while the country pays the expenses - it would make a lot more sense to me if the investments required from the host are paid by the revenue of the event it's for.

I don't think any new stadiums were built for Euro 2000 over here, not sure about upgrades, but probably no upgrades that weren't useful/wanted anyway.

edit: checked, Germany had more than enough, but the requirement for FIFA is 40k seats for each stadium, which only two stadiums have over here (Ajax and Feyenoord). Champions League finals need 70k, apparently.

[earthJoker]

soccer

[Loki]

RIO DE JANEIRO — One politician was elected to Brazil’s Congress while under investigation for murder after having an adversary killed with a chain saw. Another is wanted by Interpol after being found guilty of diverting more than $10 million from a public road project to offshore bank accounts.

And Brazil’s highest court, the Supreme Federal Tribunal, convicted another congressman of having poor female constituents, who could not afford more children, surgically sterilized in exchange for their votes...

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/28/wo...ngress.html?hp

[Flixy]

Lovely. Reminds me of Suriname, their president was convicted in absentia to 11 years for drug trafficking, is currently wanted by Europol, and is on trial for conspiracy to 15 murders, of which he allegedly killed two himself. And that's just the tip of his criminal iceberg..

[Khendraja'aro]

Loki, your quote is probably topped by this tidbit:

In 1963, Senator Arnon de Mello shot dead a fellow legislator on the Senate floor, only to escape imprisonment, since the killing was considered an accident because he was aiming at another senator.

[Kerberos2002]

http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-...24-709898.html



I hope that mangled sentence is a mistranslation. A debate on a vote for an assembly to debate about reform.

it is a diversion strategy, to say to the people, "hey we will do something about it". The poll will cost 250 million dollars, not gonna happen.

Now, according to the government's proposal is intended to give a period of two weeks for the population to understand the full range of complex issues surrounding reform of the political system, electoral and party. This referendum will ask what?
Just impossible...

[Kerberos2002]

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/28/wo...ngress.html?hp

This week a Brazilian congressman was arrested. Since 1988 constituent assembly, this is the first time a congressman is indeed put behind the jails. We are (slowly) improving

http://br.noticias.yahoo.com/donadon...004055706.html

[GGT]

...My main annoyance is that FIFA gets all the profits, while the country pays the expenses - it would make a lot more sense to me if the investments required from the host are paid by the revenue of the event it's for...

Maybe Brazilians are annoyed by the same thing. Their unemployment rate is ~ 15%, their healthcare system is cracking, and many people (reportedly) go to sports stadiums to get first aid because their clinics/hospitals are overwhelmed and underfunded.

Something like 1/3 of their legislators are under indictment for some crime or other, but they're the ones appropriating money for these public projects....when people need/want better schools, clinics, transportation. Seems like a crazy idea to take a nation struggling in post-boom economic times, rife with political corruption, and build sports venues in order to win the bid for the Olympics. It didn't work for Greece, either, and now they've got huge venues they can't maintain.

[GGT]

To give her the benefit of the doubt, pro US soccer is laughably small, I would not be surprised at all if some of the teams played in educational stadiums. On the flip side we have plenty of college sports teams that use pro stadiums.

Because state tax dollars were used in building those stadiums, and to expand infrastructure (with hikes in police and fire manpower), they often have a legal obligation to share access. But I think they still exchange money to borrow the spaces for summer sport camps or graduation ceremonies at a professional stadium, or small pro teams using school stadiums.

[Kerberos2002]

Because state tax dollars were used in building those stadiums, and to expand infrastructure (with hikes in police and fire manpower), they often have a legal obligation to share access. But I think they still exchange money to borrow the spaces for summer sport camps or graduation ceremonies at a professional stadium, or small pro teams using school stadiums.

We usually don´t use stadiums here for such things, mainly for music shows or for religious events. We have very active (and profitable, since they don´t pay any tax to government) evangelic churches. But it could work for big cities, like Rio or São Paulo, but not for the others, there is no such demand to justify these huge costs.

The Brasilia city (country capital) stadium is costing around 0,8 billion dollars and there is ZERO city teams in the main football league. Why I would spent 0,8 billion dollars of state tax dollars to build a white elephant ? Lot of reasons: Incompetency, demagogy, lack of priorities and so on...

Brazil has money to improve overall, we work 5 months in a year only to pay taxes, so the money is not the problem. The main question is that this money is not well spent.

[GGT]

The main question is that this money is not well spent.

Welcome to the World.

[Loki]

The difference being that Brazil has first world taxes and third world services.

[Kerberos2002]

The difference being that Brazil has first world taxes and third world services.

well said

yesterday was federation cup final, spain x brazil, very few attention from our media about protests around the stadium while the game was happening, some photos :











rubber bullets and tear gas






the police did a circle of 2km radius around the stadium, only people with tickets could get into.


The economy is deteriorating, population is sick of excuses and will-be-better promises.

This will be kinder spiele compared with the mess that will come on World Cup.

[GGT]

The difference being that Brazil has first world taxes and third world services.

Yeah, and it was a bad decision to raise bus fares (for those who can't afford it) in order to build sports arenas.

[Loki]

It's a symptom of a much bigger disease. Brazil extracts 34% of GDP in taxes (incidentally, Turkey isn't far behind). That's 7% higher than in the US, and only a few percents lower than most of the welfare states in Europe. For that money, Brazil has an infant mortality rate more than 3 times higher than that of the US, and more than double of Brazil's neighbors. Brazil is 85th in the UN HDI ranking (Turkey is 90th), behind such great countries as Georgia, Mauritius, and Iran.

[GGT]

Brazil was also considered a growing economy, worthy of 'investment', along with Russia, India, China (BRIC). But that was during boom times, before the global financial crisis and Great Recession.