Truly Renewable Energy

[Nessus]

Nuclear, I agree. But solar's not that simple. There's the night issue, first of all. Then the cost of the panels and the grid infrastructure (which I guess is already there . . .. ). Then the maintenance of such a distributed energy infrastructure - who's going to keep the panels in working order on all those houses?

You talkin' socialist talk in here, sonny boy? We don't take kindly to that there kind of commu-nist infiltration, no sirree

[EyeKhan]

I'm not sure what part of that a dingdong would chalk up to socialism?

[Nessus]

Well

Either you have the government mandate regulations on how your solar panels have to be maintained, which is gummint intruding into my life outside the bedroom, that's socialism right there. Or you have the government put solar panels on people's roofs, that's gummint-subsidized energy, which is socialist energy. Or you let the free marketeer energy companies sell solar panel packages where you get so and so much off your power bill if your solar panels work, but then the gummint has to make sure people don't burn grain alcohol or diesel in their back yard to generate electricity into the grid that way, so as to make a profit, and that's the socialist nanny state preventing free entrepreneurship! Every which way you turn, socialism!

[EyeKhan]

Socialism is when the government helps people who can't take care of themselves, chiefly due to economic woes. Even dingaling conservatives wouldn't say everything the government does is socialism in practice. After all, the government maintains the army, it catches toothpaste thieves, it electrocutes suspected criminals to death and it keeps fags from ruining marriage for the breeders. None of that stuff is socialist, now is it.

[Nessus]

But what about "keep [socialist] government outta my medicare!!1 "?

[EyeKhan]

Yeah, don't you just love that? That's how you know people are just following the leader and not thinking much.

[Flixy]

What's your take on Hydrogen fuel cells?

Some Buses in Europe are now hydrogen powered; Mercedes has just such a chassis.

Not heard of the use of hydrogen in road-freight, but it can't be a big step from bus to truck.

The infrastructure for hydrogen refuelling is slowly falling in to place. Pumps are available; Shell has begun rollout - there are 23 so far across California for instance.

The technologies and processes for hydrogen extraction are not yet efficient, but with suitable investment they soon will be.

Hydrogen is the most abundant resource in the universe. The hydrogen fuel cell has zero toxic waste; just water. You can't get a much greener method of transporting goods or people from A to B.

I don't know about the scalability of the cell, whether it can be used to power trains and even container-ships one day? I can't imagine it'd be an insurmountable problem though.

Surely this is the future?

Batteries are nothing more than a stop-gap in transportation till more efficient technologies come along. Batteries are always limited by their charge. When the charge runs out, you can't just recharge in minutes in the way you can just fill up with petrol or hydrogen at a filling station.

Plus, the metals used to make up modern batteries, such as lithium, are becoming much more scarce.

As I understand it, hydrogen fuel cells are sortof like the batteries in electric cars - energy carriers until you change it into electricity and power the car. Problem is that hydrogen is tricky to store and transport, and has a low energy density, so it's not really ideal. And I think fuel cells also use the scarce metals, but I could be wrong about that.

What about switching empty batteries for full ones at refueling stations? With a standardized size and connectors, it should be possible. The fueling station can then charge them overnight before selling them on. (This is also how it works with campingaz bottles, isn't it? You exchange your empty canister for a full one and only pay for the gas in it.)

[wiggin]

Better Place has been working on that in a small scale (e.g. Denmark, Israel, some islands) but getting (a) the infrastructure set up and (b) carmakers to design their batteries for easy switching is going to be very difficult.

[Ominous Gamer]

[wiggin]

Hey, I'm a big fan of Agassi, but I think he's dreaming. Until he gets a major car maker to sign onto his infrastructure ideas, he's going to likely be an also-ran in the market.

[Ominous Gamer]

I don't know anything about them, I just thought the concept you mentioned was cool enough for a video

Telsa seems to have a sweet dealing going on with Toyota right now. If anyone is going to get a standard going, its got to be them.

[Being]

Well, here's an interesting story.

A Cheaper Route to Solar Cells

More info here.

1366

[EyeKhan]

Better Place has been working on that in a small scale (e.g. Denmark, Israel, some islands) but getting (a) the infrastructure set up and (b) carmakers to design their batteries for easy switching is going to be very difficult.

The problem is right now the batteries are huge. A typical busy commuter gas station would have to store and charge hundreds at a time. The space and power reqs would be huge, not to mention the labor and time involved to do the switching. You wouldn't be just retrofitting old gas stations and there would be a lot more operational cost compared to a typical self serve station.

[wiggin]

EK, the idea is to have separate recharging stations, not expanding petrol stations. Furthermore, they're thinking of using a leasing model for the batteries, where you pay by the mile (similar to the way gas works now) - that will help recoup some of the costs. Lastly, if you think gas stations don't have costly space and money requirements, you're dreaming. At least with recharging stations you wouldn't need to have tanker visit the station every few days. Underground storage could probably keep batteries stored while they're recharging.

*shrugs* I don't think that's the real flaw in their business model, personally.

[Flixy]

Better Place has been working on that in a small scale (e.g. Denmark, Israel, some islands) but getting (a) the infrastructure set up and (b) carmakers to design their batteries for easy switching is going to be very difficult.

Agreed, but it has a lot of upsides, too. You can charge efficiently at hours with overproduction, instead of straining the electricity grid to homes even more than it already is (providing people would recharge at home, and if they don't recharge at home it saves a LOT of time at the refueling station). Getting the carmakers to work together on it may prove difficult, maybe there could be a role for US/EU governments in there?

s. Furthermore, they're thinking of using a leasing model for the batteries, where you pay by the mile (similar to the way gas works now) - that will help recoup some of the costs.

?

[Ominous Gamer]

GM was considering selling the Volt with a lease on the batteries. There are commercial uses for them once they're retired from driving service, and frankly, what else is the driver going to do with a dead 400lb battery?

There are Prius owners that are already complaining about dead useless batteries.

[wiggin]

Agreed, but it has a lot of upsides, too. You can charge efficiently at hours with overproduction, instead of straining the electricity grid to homes even more than it already is (providing people would recharge at home, and if they don't recharge at home it saves a LOT of time at the refueling station). Getting the carmakers to work together on it may prove difficult, maybe there could be a role for US/EU governments in there?

I'm very leery of the government getting involved in specific programs. Let's be honest - no one has any idea what would be the best technology to support 50 years down the road from a perspective of economics, environment, etc. Subsidizing one industry or focusing on one company's model to the detriment of other worthy ideas is probably an awful policy. If Better Place's business model makes sense, they'll get the partnerships and infrastructure on their own. If not, it's probably not worth favoring it over other alternatives.

?

Better Place's basic business model is that you don't own your electric car, but rather lease it from the company. Advantage is that you don't 'own' your battery and they can swap them at will. Also, it takes some of the uncertainty about maintenance of the electrical systems off of the customer (similar to the way Toyota guaranteed the Prius hybrid components for 8 or 10 years or whatever, even when they had no real reliability data).

Their business model calls for a subscription model - you pay for how many miles you use, and they pick up the recharging bill, infrastructure, and maintenance. Big disadvantage is that if you can charge your battery for cheaper than their per-mile cost, tough luck.

[Khendraja'aro]

GM was considering selling the Volt with a lease on the batteries. There are commercial uses for them once they're retired from driving service, and frankly, what else is the driver going to do with a dead 400lb battery?

There are Prius owners that are already complaining about dead useless batteries.

Well, they're probably LiIon-batteries. And those are dead after 3 years, regardless of use or non-use.

[wiggin]

Actually, the Prius uses Nickel Metal Hydride batteries as (to my knowledge) do many hybrids. The Volt uses some fancy form of lithium ion battery that, while still having some capacity loss issues, it supposed to last for ~10 years. Lithium ion batteries are hardly all the same technology, and consumer electronics can use cheaper equivalents than cars.

[EyeKhan]

EK, the idea is to have separate recharging stations, not expanding petrol stations. Furthermore, they're thinking of using a leasing model for the batteries, where you pay by the mile (similar to the way gas works now) - that will help recoup some of the costs. Lastly, if you think gas stations don't have costly space and money requirements, you're dreaming. At least with recharging stations you wouldn't need to have tanker visit the station every few days. Underground storage could probably keep batteries stored while they're recharging.

*shrugs* I don't think that's the real flaw in their business model, personally.

Yeah, I'm not feelin' it Wigs. Unless batteries get a lot smaller and a lot lighter I don't see gigantic road-side warehouses where you can go in for a fresh charged battery whenever you need extended range. I think the GM solution is very elegant and takes advantage of existing infrastructure - need to go further than your charge, you run a little gas powered generator to get you through. And it could be adapted to alt fuels or even hydrogen powered ICEs or fuel cells all of which could fit in the same footprint as our existing gas station network. While I think GM's volt ulitmately needs a longer range - like double - to be a decent general purpose electric vehicle, I think they're on the right track.

[EyeKhan]

GM was considering selling the Volt with a lease on the batteries. There are commercial uses for them once they're retired from driving service, and frankly, what else is the driver going to do with a dead 400lb battery?

There are Prius owners that are already complaining about dead useless batteries.

Who the heck changes their own batteries in a Prius? Freakin' do it yourselfers to the extreme... Its not like the old days when you could pour your oil down the sewer when no one was looking...

[Ominous Gamer]

Who the heck changes their own batteries in a Prius? Freakin' do it yourselfers to the extreme... Its not like the old days when you could pour your oil down the sewer when no one was looking...

I didn't mean they had dead batteries just sitting around. I mean they're driving a Prius around on just the gas engine, hauling this huge weight that they can't just detach, because ( as already mentioned) the concept was pushed to public before extended testing was completed. New batteries can cost upwards of 4 grand, but Toyota has been pretty good about taking care of new (first) owners.
The batteries are also susceptible to the same shady dealings that effect other car parts. 2nd hand parts from totalled vehicles being passed along as fresh and new.

[EyeKhan]

I didn't mean they had dead batteries just sitting around. I mean they're driving a Prius around on just the gas engine, hauling this huge weight that they can't just detach, because ( as already mentioned) the concept was pushed to public before extended testing was completed. New batteries can cost upwards of 4 grand, but Toyota has been pretty good about taking care of new (first) owners.
The batteries are also susceptible to the same shady dealings that effect other car parts. 2nd hand parts from totalled vehicles being passed along as fresh and new.

Oh, heh, that makes better sense...

[Khendraja'aro]

Actually, the Prius uses Nickel Metal Hydride batteries as (to my knowledge) do many hybrids. The Volt uses some fancy form of lithium ion battery that, while still having some capacity loss issues, it supposed to last for ~10 years. Lithium ion batteries are hardly all the same technology, and consumer electronics can use cheaper equivalents than cars.

I'm not really convinced. I mean, the charging-discharging-cycles are pure hell for any kind of battery and the ambient temperature ranges from below zero during winter to way above 40 °C in summer in the sun.

Those 10 years may look very fine in a laboratory at optimum conditions, real life use will tell another story.

[Lebanese Dragon]

And if you want to compare efficiency then consider that photovoltaics cost almost as much to produce as the cost of electricity they produce over their lifetime. That's why we subsidize the industry.

As far I know, and I've read up on this issue the cost of solar energy is not more expensive than the energy it collects over it's lifetime. Secondly, as long as the resources stay on Earth that we can keep reforging Solar energy set-ups, and they cost less energy than they produce.. then as long as we have the sun we can use them indefinitely. Even if you want to argue by some other way that'll we'll have to stop using solar before the sun goes up, which i can't think of anything off the top of my head other than we're all dead or B.S. which case it doesn't matter, a few billion years is more than sufficient time to develop whatever else we may need and make it well worth the investment to at least look into perfecting, maybe something else will come up as we do perfect the technology.

Secondly, and I really don't want to argue with you since you're obviously young and a presumption thinker, which hurts all discussion. You need to evaluate how you think about stuff. The first thing you have to do is forget who you were, forget anything you were ever taught or told and assume nothing. Then you can begin to have your real first thought. I agree it's impossible to do this completely, luckily for us to get on the right track we don't need to.

Almost along the lines at what our Lord Jesus Christ said of needing to die and be born again, but this time as an adult.

[Being]

As far I know, and I've read up on this issue the cost of solar energy is not more expensive than the energy it collects over it's lifetime. Secondly, as long as the resources stay on Earth that we can keep reforging Solar energy set-ups, and they cost less energy than they produce.. then as long as we have the sun we can use them indefinitely. Even if you want to argue by some other way that'll we'll have to stop using solar before the sun goes up, which i can't think of anything off the top of my head other than we're all dead or B.S. which case it doesn't matter, a few billion years is more than sufficient time to develop whatever else we may need and make it well worth the investment to at least look into perfecting, maybe something else will come up as we do perfect the technology.

Secondly, and I really don't want to argue with you since you're obviously young and a presumption thinker, which hurts all discussion. You need to evaluate how you think about stuff. The first thing you have to do is forget who you were, forget anything you were ever taught or told and assume nothing. Then you can begin to have your real first thought. I agree it's impossible to do this completely, luckily for us to get on the right track we don't need to.

Almost along the lines at what our Lord Jesus Christ said of needing to die and be born again, but this time as an adult.

Your insight is beyond imagination.

[EyeKhan]

Holy Shit! It's Lebanese Dragon! I thought you were gone Forever. Welcome.

EDIT:

a few billion years is more than sufficient time to develop whatever else we may need and make it well worth the investment to at least look into perfecting,

Uh. I hope so. If we're still trying to get by on photovoltaics in - in - in two BILLION years, well, something's gone wrong. If humanity survives the next 100 years, (that's a significant IF, btw) and we don't decide to return to our caveman roots (like they did in BSG), and our engineering capabilities continue developing at the current pace, then I'd think we could expect a Dyson Sphere in a thousand years. While that's just an estimate, I've been hitting some home runs with estimates lately.

(In a billion years we ought to have every star in the galaxy safely encased in spheres.)
......

Almost along the lines at what our Lord Jesus Christ said of needing to die and be born again, but this time as an adult.

Holy Moly.

[Lebanese Dragon]

Well thank you.. I don't recognize your name to be honest, but thanks for the welcome. It's good to see everyone again, but I'm a little dissapointed that i don't see more recent posting by Minx and Spawnie, but they've always have been allusive by nature. I like how people have developed, it seems Illusions has lost his tear, perhaps that's a good thing. He's still smart though... but more importantly he took over my "..." gig, haha... And RandBlade needs to post more too, tell him he needs to post once a day to maintain his mod status. When we have an intelligent poster we need to encourage him to post! I'll be around and maybe i'll do an official greeting thread, to catch up on things, unless that's against the rules . For now it's good to see everyone.

[Being]

... And RandBlade needs to post more too, tell him he needs to post once a day to maintain his mod status. When we have an intelligent poster we need to encourage him to post!.

You really should catch up. You see, we've established that Randblade is not as intelligent a poster as he would have us believe -- he can't even figure out how to get internet service.

[Dreadnaught]

Well thank you.. I don't recognize your name to be honest, but thanks for the welcome. It's good to see everyone again, but I'm a little dissapointed that i don't see more recent posting by Minx and Spawnie, but they've always have been allusive by nature. I like how people have developed, it seems Illusions has lost his tear, perhaps that's a good thing. He's still smart though... but more importantly he took over my "..." gig, haha... And RandBlade needs to post more too, tell him he needs to post once a day to maintain his mod status. When we have an intelligent poster we need to encourage him to post! I'll be around and maybe i'll do an official greeting thread, to catch up on things, unless that's against the rules . For now it's good to see everyone.

Welcome! And "Aimless" = Minxie.