Finder's Keepers?

[CitizenCain]

Yeah, all you self-righteous posters seem to be unaware that society and law treat lost or abandoned items differently than the shit someone actually has in their possession.

If you leave something at the gym or in the airport or whatever, it's lost or abandoned property, and it's neither illegal nor immoral to capitalize on your good fortune and keep lost or abandoned property you come across. Granted, it is much more ethical to make some small effort to get the property back to its owner, but there's nothing wrong with getting a free Kindle either.

And, FWIW, I can be scatterbrained and frequently leave "my shit" at the bar or work or where ever. (Music player, phones, USB drives, "e-cigs," etc.) I always get them back, because my portable electronics and other small valuables have labels on them with a way to contact me, and the promise of a reward for getting my shit back to me.

[Ominous Gamer]

If you leave something at the gym or in the airport or whatever, it's lost or abandoned property, and it's neither illegal nor immoral to capitalize on your good fortune and keep lost or abandoned property you come across.

This is theft by finding, and yes, it can be illegal

You do not have legal ownership of the item unless you do what you can to find the owner, and in most cases that requires turning it into law enforcement.

[Lebanese Dragon]

So any updates on being able to return it?

[CitizenCain]

This is theft by finding, and yes, it can be illegal

Wearing suspenders on Tuesdays, having a hippopotamus in your bathtub or receiving a blowjob from another man can also be illegal, depending on which petty tyrant's fiefdom you find yourself in, for a few real-world USA examples.

Hell, I hear it may even be illegal to feed homeless people in a public park in some Florida cities.

Any-fucking-thing can be illegal, which says more about the obscene state of our legal code than anything else.

You do not have legal ownership of the item unless you do what you can to find the owner, and in most cases that requires turning it into law enforcement.

Oh, you reddit, so I assume you saw *that* link too, didn't you? Where some dumbfuck found $2000 in an envelope in a parking lot, and turned it in to the local cops... who kept the money for themselves because there's really no way to track down the owner?

Yeah. May as well keep the Kindle or the cash or whatever for yourself than let some other random asshole cash in.

[Illusions]

it's neither illegal

Well...yeah, thats why we were shaming him instead of reporting him to the police...

nor immoral

Last I checked morality is relevant to the group(s) to which one belongs, and can also vary from person to person, unless you want to argue some sort of universal set of morals. This also means that if he comes to this forum and starts a poll about what the "right" thing to do is, then he's asking us for what we believe is "right". Either that or he's just hoping to placate his own conscience, by falsely assuming that we'd be okay with him keeping the Kindle. Regardless of all of this, I wouldn't exactly put you on the top of the list when it comes to altruistic morality.

[CitizenCain]

Well...yeah, thats why we were shaming him instead of reporting him to the police...

Right, being self-righteous twats, which is what I objected to.

Last I checked morality is relevant to the group(s) to which one belongs, and can also vary from person to person, unless you want to argue some sort of universal set of morals. This also means that if he comes to this forum and starts a poll about what the "right" thing to do is, then he's asking us for what we believe is "right". Either that or he's just hoping to placate his own conscience, by falsely assuming that we'd be okay with him keeping the Kindle. Regardless of all of this, I wouldn't exactly put you on the top of the list when it comes to altruistic morality.

And back to your all morality being subjective point, the argument can be made that being "altruistic" (at least in the common usage of that word) is inherently immoral in and of itself, so again, all these responses to Dread are rather self-righteous and twatly.

Ethically, I think it's about a wash either way, and if Dread's going to about returning this its owner, deserves compensation for doing so, which is far from guaranteed, so there's really no moral or ethical high-road here, and ought to do what works best for him. Free Kindle or small reward/free sex that may or may not be consensual, which ever he prefers.

[Khendraja'aro]

Well, Cain, "Theft by finding" is also illegal in the UK, in Germany, in Ireland - and probably pretty much every country under the sun.

Makes sense, too. Because without such a law, pretty much everyone who has to take his eyes off a portable object for even one second could be subject to such theft without repercussions for the thief.

Parents with children would be a nice example.

[Aimless]

Well duh it was lost after he removed it from the gym, although I guess it was less lost after he gave it back to Amazon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost,_m...doned_property

Mindy's safe

[Ominous Gamer]

Oh, you reddit, so I assume you saw *that* link too, didn't you? Where some dumbfuck found $2000 in an envelope in a parking lot, and turned it in to the local cops... who kept the money for themselves because there's really no way to track down the owner?

Didn't come to mind at all. I was thinking more along the lines that its illegal to claim any cash that falls off a delivery truck, which there are plenty of google examples for. Your claim that found items are instantly "abandoned property" is flat out false.

[CitizenCain]

Well, Cain, "Theft by finding" is also illegal in the UK, in Germany, in Ireland - and probably pretty much every country under the sun.

Well, glad we got that settled.

The law being the perfect and completely uniform moral authority it is, I'm gonna go lynch me a nigger, kill a faggot and face-stomp some evil hippie who's providing food to bums in the park.

[Hazir]

In Holland there is no such thing as theft by finding. Upon finding a lost item you are obliged to report it to the authorities, while keeping it. After reporting a one year period starts where you are charged with the item's care in such a way that it does not deteriorate. After that year your keepership turns into ownership and the original owner looses his rights. The only sanction on not reporting is that you will never be the owner of the good and that the original owner may always retake posession.

[Loki]

Is that how you lost Belgium?

[Khendraja'aro]

In Holland there is no such thing as theft by finding. Upon finding a lost item you are obliged to report it to the authorities, while keeping it. After reporting a one year period starts where you are charged with the item's care in such a way that it does not deteriorate. After that year your keepership turns into ownership and the original owner looses his rights. The only sanction on not reporting is that you will never be the owner of the good and that the original owner may always retake posession.

Right. And that "obligation" of reporting doesn't come with a fine if you don't report it?

I somehow don't quite believe that.

[Ominous Gamer]

In Holland there is no such thing as theft by finding. Upon finding a lost item you are obliged to report it to the authorities, while keeping it.

umm...not reporting it would be theft by finding...no?

[Aimless]

Not necessarily, it might just mean that the owner can just take it back. He may or may not be able to sue you for being a dick, who knows. Either way, if you don't report it and it's never found, who's going to fine you?

[EyeKhan]

Dread, there's no question that (b) is wrong; the only question is whether there is a better alternative to (a) along the lines of what Timbuk said. Anything that has personally identifiable information on it (e.g. Kindles are personalized) should be default be returned to the owners using all reasonable means. To do otherwise is theft. Only anonymous goods (e.g. cash) should be treated as 'finder's keepers'. Amazon might actually be able to help on this one; according to some discussions on their website, they'll send you a shipping label, read the serial number, and return it to the correct individual.

A detailed and fairly reasonable discussion of these issues can be found in the second chapter of the Babylonian Bava Metzia, and I've found that it's one of the aspects of ancient legal discourse that applies just as well today as it did 1500 years ago.

Late 2 cents....

Wiggin has the best solution - Amazon knows who owns that kindle.

If that somehow were not the case, I'd turn it in to the gym staff. That's how things are "supposed" to work - if the staff is corrupt, well, that's their problem. I don't believe it's your responsibility to do as Buck said and jump through hoops looking for the owner.

[Hazir]

Right. And that "obligation" of reporting doesn't come with a fine if you don't report it?

I somehow don't quite believe that.

No, the sanction is that you can't obtain ownership for a period of at least 20 years. And you can be held liable for the deteriation of the good by the owner.

[Hazir]

Is that how you lost Belgium?

Belgium wasn't really lost, we knew where it was all the time.

[Timbuk2]

Late 2 cents....

Wiggin has the best solution - Amazon knows who owns that kindle.

If that somehow were not the case, I'd turn it in to the gym staff. That's how things are "supposed" to work - if the staff is corrupt, well, that's their problem. I don't believe it's your responsibility to do as Buck said and jump through hoops looking for the owner.

Asking for a description in a hope of finding the owner, and/or posting a message on the gym noticeboard is jumping through hoops ?

Isn't in my little world.

Though I agree passing it onto the staff is the normal way to respond in this situation.


EDIT: Just went back through this thread. Seems I didn't actually post that Dread should post a message on the gym noticeboard, I just thought it. Christ I'm going senile.

[CitizenCain]

No, the sanction is that you can't obtain ownership for a period of at least 20 years. And you can be held liable for the deteriation of the good by the owner.

That's a pretty lousy deal for the finder, then. Can't imagine anyone actually reporting the finding of anything worthwhile under those circumstances.

[Flixy]

From the way hazir describes it, that's when you don't report it. If you do, you get to keep it after one year, or a finder's fee (10% I think?)

[Khendraja'aro]

No, the sanction is that you can't obtain ownership for a period of at least 20 years. And you can be held liable for the deteriation of the good by the owner.

Still don't believe that, sorry. "Hey, I found a car!"

[CitizenCain]

Still don't believe that, sorry. "Hey, I found a car!"

Are you really this stupid, or are you just acting dumber than an infant so you can be combative and argumentative?

[Aimless]

Still don't believe that, sorry. "Hey, I found a car!"

I presume there's a sliding scale on which a car... wait, how the hell did you find a car?

[Ominous Gamer]

I presume there's a sliding scale on which a car... wait, how the hell did you find a car?

barn finds are serious business

[Dreadnaught]

Dreadnaught, right, you openly talked about keeping the damn kindle in the opening post. The poll option for that is at the top of the page. You can't pretend all you ever wanted was to keep her Kindle out of the hands of thieving gym staff.

PS, "people who think stealing is wrong = high horse" < major lol

PPS "people who think stealing is wrong = high horse" whilst simultaneously portraying the gym staff as thieving scumbags for doing exactly the same thing you were going to do even more major lol

PPPS,

<stoner voice>yeah you just gotta get off your high horse and chillax mang, you're so, like, uptight and stuff</stoner voice>... or maybe it's only wrong to take stuff without paying for it when it's someone other than you doing it?

In your rage, you seem to have missed the point of the thread. The near-certainty that the staff would just take the thing put me in the position of potentially doing the same thing, once I had made a good-faith effort to get it back to the loser. So my question was more about the morality of that, as I saw it as an all-things-being-equal thing due to the particular nature of the staff there.

Separately, the only signs up in the gym are (ironically) signs saying that the gym isn't responsible for lost items and instructing people to protect their belongings.

So any updates on being able to return it?

It's in Amazon's hands now.

Asking for a description in a hope of finding the owner, and/or posting a message on the gym noticeboard is jumping through hoops ?

Isn't in my little world.

Though I agree passing it onto the staff is the normal way to respond in this situation.


EDIT: Just went back through this thread. Seems I didn't actually post that Dread should post a message on the gym noticeboard, I just thought it. Christ I'm going senile.

Someone else suggested this. And I keep scratching my head because people don't seem to understand the volume of people who go in/out of this gym. There is no message board. Any piece of paper or signage put up anywhere would be taken down in minutes. It's a cold place, watched-over by cold people.

Besides fitness class schedules, the only signs up in the gym are (ironically) signs saying that the gym isn't responsible for lost items and instructing people to protect their belongings.

[GGT]

Right, being self-righteous twats, which is what I objected to.

And back to your all morality being subjective point, the argument can be made that being "altruistic" (at least in the common usage of that word) is inherently immoral in and of itself, so again, all these responses to Dread are rather self-righteous and twatly.

Ethically, I think it's about a wash either way, and if Dread's going to about returning this its owner, deserves compensation for doing so, which is far from guaranteed, so there's really no moral or ethical high-road here, and ought to do what works best for him. Free Kindle or small reward/free sex that may or may not be consensual, which ever he prefers.

Being a dramatic troll is slightly entertaining, but ignoring the basic question for those people with a conscience is just lame.

....

Someone else suggested this. And I keep scratching my head because people don't seem to understand the volume of people who go in/out of this gym. There is no message board. Any piece of paper or signage put up anywhere would be taken down in minutes. It's a cold place, watched-over by cold people.

Besides fitness class schedules, the only signs up in the gym are (ironically) signs saying that the gym isn't responsible for lost items and instructing people to protect their belongings.

Whose gym is it, anyway? Seems to me it 'belongs' to the paying members, and the staff are there only at the behest of its membership. If you don't have a message board, and the "staff" can operate as cold people who don't care about its members.....then I have no idea why you bother to pay to belong there.

[Timbuk2]

It does indeed sound like a questionable gym. Blatantly dishonest staff, and no noticeboard, when a gym is exactly the sort of place people do post messages about lost/found items. Over here anyway. I don't know what gyms are like in the States.

[Aimless]

The ginormous gym here is one of the friendliest places in a very friendly town. No wonder Dread's been changing over the past few years. Dude, get away from that gym

[Aimless]

And stop using Jack3d