So explain to me why the GOP dude says this measure will help Romney win? And why most people expect the measures will prevent a few percentages of the electorate from voting?
So explain to me why the GOP dude says this measure will help Romney win? And why most people expect the measures will prevent a few percentages of the electorate from voting?
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/we...izards-of-i-d-Originally Posted by Flixy
I mean, seriously America, WTF
PS not meant as a partisan thing, if Democrats do the same thing it's just as bad. But for a democracy, this kind of stuff is pathetic. I don't know any other way to describe it..
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/we...oter-i-d--laws
Don't take the left's word that this is merely a trick to shift the vote. "Voter ID, which is going to allow Romney to win the state of Pensylvania, done" - Mike Turzai. (2nd link 2:00 in)
I could have had class. I could have been a contender.
I could have been somebody. Instead of a bum
Which is what I am
I aim at the stars
But sometimes I hit London
So, this republican think tank of lawyers which only found 300 cases over ten years total for the whole US - they're just a group that's subverted by the left?
When the stars threw down their spears
And watered heaven with their tears:
Did he smile his work to see?
Did he who made the lamb make thee?
First of all, there were two issues brought up, one being voter ID laws and the other being about the retarded early voting rule thing. Secondly, what do you think will be the real life consequences of the proposed voter-ID laws? Like, if you were to weigh, in the real world, fraud against eg. number of people voting from various groups in society. What do you imagine that election would really look like? Who--if any--do you think would become less likely and/or less able to vote?
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
I believe those claims come from the fact of how hard it is for certain people to qualify for those IDs being required at the polls. Its not free or easy for people to request copies of their birth certificate, and thats just one form thats required.
I'd have no problem with Voter ID laws if the financial and technical restrictions to get the required IDs were removed.
"In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."
I don't know why the random Pennsylvania state-level Republican said that, he sounds like an idiot. Or he believes that the Pennsylvania Democratic machine is orchestrating widespread electoral violations (or at least improprieties) to swing the vote for Obama and somehow he's "fighting back". I don't know, I think it's irrelevant. This law was approved by dozens of legislators and it was given the go-ahead by a judge just yesterday.
Once again, please read my earlier post: I don't think fraud is really the issue. This is about the fact that our election system is so scattered and disorganized that, depending on the state/region, its efficacy hovers somewhere between "basically gets the job done" and "barely cutting it."
Some of you may recall that I used to be a resident of Pennsylvania and how much I complained about the voting process several years ago (I was voting for a few Democratic candidates). Pennsylvania is the kind of place where a bunch of people will illegally wear political buttons and hold the door open for you in the polling location. But the police can't enforce the law against propagandizing in the polling station because of insane Philly laws that see cops as "the man" and won't let police within 150 feet of polling stations unless there's a violent crime going on.
You may also remember the two guys from the New Black Panther party who stood outside a polling station in Philadelphia in 2008 in uniform brandishing law enforcement batons. You may also remember the Pennsylvania Republican party's widespread efforts to scare students into not voting by distributing flyers saying they would have to pay PA state taxes if they voted in elections there.
Long story short, there are places in the US where political groups are using opaque laws, voter confusion and a shitty system of organizing elections to gain an upper hand. Pennsylvania is one of them. Requiring photo identification at the polling station isn't part of the problem. You may not think it's the solution, but it's not part of the problem.
Now, if you can take a step back and pretend for a moment that you're not talking to Dreadnaught whose views you always must despise, do any of you three actually have a problem with the idea of requiring identification to vote?
If they're making you jump through hoops in order to acquire said identification, then, yes.
When the stars threw down their spears
And watered heaven with their tears:
Did he smile his work to see?
Did he who made the lamb make thee?
Well, the ID requirements are either the same as they've always been, or some restrictions/fees have been waived to make things easier. So it sounds like you're in the "pro" camp.
Dread playing the victim card because he doesn't understand the multiple layers in how Voter ID laws restrict people from voting.
anyone surprised?
I'm curious what restrictions/fees have been waved. We know the first part of your claim is a lie thanks to the REAL ID act, and at least one form (birth certificate) is an expense charged by all 50 states. So how has it gotten easier, cheaper, or stayed the same?
Last edited by Ominous Gamer; 08-18-2012 at 02:11 AM.
"In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."
Yes, in the case of the US I kinda do have a problem with requiring photo-ID. I'd like to point out that your post does not constitute an answer to my question and also only tangentially addresses the issue of voter ID laws
Last edited by Aimless; 08-17-2012 at 09:14 PM.
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
Dread, I would like to add your examples to my previous conclusion:
I mean, seriously America, WTF
[...] for a democracy, this kind of
stuff is pathetic. I don't know any other
way to describe it..
On the bright side, the early voting thing seems cancelled, but it is worrying that it could get this far in the first place. On a side note, I am not uncomfortable with the fact that cops don't come in the voting station, but replacing him with a Black Panther.. Well, only in Americadon't you have bipartisan committees staffing and controlling voting locations?
The heart, oh how she weeps
In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.
Yes, in the case of the US I kinda do have a problem with requiring photo-ID. I'd like to point out that your post does not constitute an answer to my question and also only tangentially addresses the issue of voter ID lawsCome on, you understand this issue better than you're letting on. Your question was about fraud. My response was this isn't really about fraud, or at least not in the malicious sense. Though I do think there's a decent number of people who make unintentional errors when they vote. I think I may have at one point (I was registered to vote in several places at once). And I think the amount of chaos that can reign over voting in places where keeping track of registrations is so bad amounts to a crime, but only in the metaphysical sense.
If you're asking what I think the impact of voter ID laws will be, I suspect the actual impact won't be too great, especially in the long run. People who can't be arsed to get a basic government ID probably aren't voting en masse. My beef is this completely insincere view taken by many on the US left that wanting a strong identification process at the voting booth is somehow racist or discriminatory. You have to show photo ID to go see your Congressional representative at his/her office. But many object to showing ID to vote him/her into office? It's nonsense.
Police don't need to be in the polling station unless there is some kind of law being broken. Not letting police into the polling station when there is a report of laws being broken unless that law involves physical violence makes sense. Illegally distributing propaganda in a polling station is voter intimidation, and police should be able to forcibly stop that.Dread, I would like to add your examples to my previous conclusion:
I mean, seriously America, WTF
[...] for a democracy, this kind of
stuff is pathetic. I don't know any other
way to describe it..
On the bright side, the early voting thing seems cancelled, but it is worrying that it could get this far in the first place. On a side note, I am not uncomfortable with the fact that cops don't come in the voting station, but replacing him with a Black Panther.. Well, only in America
Why do you not support solidly identifying voters before they vote?
My question wasn't just about fraud:
Now you mention several other potential issues besides fraud but I see no quantification of the hoped-for gains vs the likely negatives. I also don't see how any of your other voting horrors can be neutralised by photo IDs. Like, what, are you going to go through the votes and contact those that made mistakes to offer feedback or let them try again?Secondly, what do you think will be the real life consequences of the proposed voter-ID laws? Like, if you were to weigh, in the real world, fraud against eg. number of people voting from various groups in society. What do you imagine that election would really look like? Who--if any--do you think would become less likely and/or less able to vote?
Okay first of all, why do you think this is simply about "People who can't be arsed to get a basic government ID"? Have you even bothered to stop and think about why someone might not be "arsed" to get a photo ID in the US? Do you know who that "someone" is?If you're asking what I think the impact of voter ID laws will be, I suspect the actual impact won't be too great, especially in the long run. People who can't be arsed to get a basic government ID probably aren't voting en masse.
As for your second claim that they probably aren't voting en-masse anyway--perhaps for the same reasons they don't have photo ID--why do you reckon that is? D'you reckon it's a problem?
You're right, I mean what if someone starts shooting the ballot boxes or somethingMy beef is this completely insincere view taken by many on the US left that wanting a strong identification process at the voting booth is somehow racist or discriminatory. You have to show photo ID to go see your Congressional representative at his/her office. But many object to showing ID to vote him/her into office? It's nonsense.
I think you'll find that most people here aren't against photo ID in principle. We're just not very keen on the likely outcome of suddenly requiring photo ID to vote in the American presidential election, because, in the US, such a change would likely disadvantage a large number of people who--for various reasons--don't have or will have significant difficulties getting photo ID. You may argue that such miscreants are never going to vote anyway and that they--as a group--don't deserve any special consideration... but I can't say I subscribe to that view.
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
What I wonder is why esp. Republicans--esp. in certain states of strategic value--are so incredibly keen on voter ID laws. Why is that, really? Why are Democrats so strongly opposed to them?
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
They don't want niggers or the poor (wherein niggers are vastly over-represented) voting.
In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.
Yes but why?
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
Because niggers' interests are against those the GOP holds dear?
In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.
Okay first of all, why do you think this is simply about "People who can't be arsed to get a basic government ID"? Have you even bothered to stop and think about why someone might not be "arsed" to get a photo ID in the US? Do you know who that "someone" is?
As for your second claim that they probably aren't voting en-masse anyway--perhaps for the same reasons they don't have photo ID
You're right, I mean what if someone starts shooting the ballot boxes or something
I think you'll find that most people here aren't against photo ID in principle. We're just not very keen on the likely outcome of suddenly requiring photo ID to vote in the American presidential election, because, in the US, such a change would likely disadvantage a large number of people who--for various reasons--don't have or will have significant difficulties getting photo ID. You may argue that such miscreants are never going to vote anyway and that they--as a group--don't deserve any special consideration... but I can't say I subscribe to that view.The reason people are keen on these laws is because we had a pretty funky election in 2000 that exposed some key weaknesses in our election system, which relies on thousands of local districts to manage and tally votes. A bi-partisan commission of prominent Democrats and Republicans was convened to look at voting issues (the commission included noted angry leftist Jimmy Carter). Here's what Jimmy Carter signed-off on-
As I said, a well-respected panel of former public servants in Democratic and Republican administrations endorsed the idea that our system is very messy and could use some standardization and stronger ID. For some reason, Democrats have gotten some serious derangement syndrome over this voter ID issue and spent the past decade blocking every attempt to strengthen voter ID because they think it's "racist" and discriminatory. This is nonsense, especially when the resources used to fight these commonsense laws could be used to help stop the corner cases where people don't have proper ID. Nonetheless, the voting reforms in some states have progressed and have been deemed clearly constitutional by our Supreme Court.First, we propose a universal voter registration system in which the states, not local jurisdictions, are responsible for the accuracy and quality of the voter lists. Additionally, we propose that the U.S. Election Assistance Commission (EAC) develop a mechanism to connect all states’ list. These topdown and interoperable registration lists will, if implemented successfully, eliminate the vast majority of complaints currently leveled against the election system. States will retain control over their registration list, but a distributed database can remove interstate duplicates and help states to maintain an up-to-date, fully accurate registration list. This would mean people would need to register only once in their lifetime, and it would be easy to update their registration information when they move. We also propose that all states establish uniform procedures for counting provisional ballots, and many members recommend that the ballots should be counted if the citizen has voted in the correct jurisdiction.
Second, to make sure that a person arriving at a polling site is the same one who is named on the list, we propose a uniform system of voter identification based on the "REAL ID card" or an equivalent for people without a drivers license. To prevent the ID from being a barrier to voting, we recommend that states use the registration and ID process to enfranchise more voters than ever. States should play an affirmative role in reaching out to non-drivers by providing more offices, including mobile ones, to register voters and provide photo IDs free of charge. There is likely to be less discrimination against minorities if there is a single, uniform ID, than if poll workers can apply multiple standards. In addition, we suggest procedural and institutional safeguards to make sure that the rights of citizens are not abused and that voters will not be disenfranchised because of an ID requirement. We also propose that voters who do not have a photo ID during a transitional period receive a provisional ballot that would be counted if their signature is verified.
http://www1.american.edu/ia/cfer/report/report.html
Once again, I maintain that you're buying into the leftist media rhetoric on this. These laws have been over a decade in the making; this isn't "new" or sudden. Several of these state laws are a few years old. We've had a federal law in place since 2002 requiring showing ID when voting in a federal election for the first time, unless the voter registration itself required showing an ID.
Pennsylvania's law is the most recent. It was finally passed in March. It's been under litigation since then. But if someone in PA really cares about voting and happens to not have an identification for some reason, they have a nine month window to get one. You know, just in case the law that was passed in March happens to be the law in effect in November.
All the time spent hand-wringing over the issue could have easily been applied towards getting a fracking ID. They now are free, after all, to people who need one to vote. You can even get one from your university, nursing-home, etc because Pennsylvania was also very careful to make several forms of photo ID permissible (arguably allowing non-profit organizations to make election-worthy IDs has its own problems, but still):
A. WHAT PHOTO IDS ARE ACCEPTABLE ON NOVEMBER 6 AND FOR FUTURE ELECTIONS?
Acceptable PHOTO IDs include:
1. A PA driver's license: Must be currently valid or expired less than 12 months at the time the voter is casting a vote.
2. An ID issued by PennDOT: Must be currently valid or expired less than 12 months at the time the voter is casting a vote.
3. A U.S. passport: Must have an expiration date. Expiration date must be after 11/6/12.
4. An active duty or retired U.S. military ID, including an ID for members of the PA National Guard: No expiration date required.
5. A military dependent’s ID: Must have an expiration date. Expiration date must be after 11/6/12.
6. An employee ID issued by federal, PA, PA county or PA municipal government. (A School District employee ID is not acceptable.) Must have an expiration date. Expiration date must be after 11/6/12.
7. An ID issued by an accredited PA university, college, seminary, community college or two-year college to students, faculty, employees and alumni. Must have an expiration date. Expiration date must be after 11/6/12.
8. An ID issued by a PA care facility (such as a long-term care nursing facility, assisted living residence or a personal care home). Must have an expiration date. Expiration date must be after 11/6/12.
http://www.seventy.org/Elections_Vot...the_Polls.aspx
That commission's stated task was to address the problem of low confidence in elections. How do you think confidence in elections will be affected by laws that are perceived by at least one side to be unfairly restrictive?
Moreover, the commission made recommendations for making voting easier eg. for those who currently lack photo ID. Are all of the commission's recommendations being followed eg. in the states that have implemented new voter ID laws?
PA seems to have put some thought into the matter, but, from your link:
So even this well-thought-out implementation comes with hurdles and relies on one of those horrible inefficient agencies you so love to deride as well as requiring a significant time (never mind money) commitment from the voter, which in turn may rely on things like the generosity of that person's employer. I have no idea how the various redneck states have implemented their laws. The link you provide is a good one, however, and I wonder how many of those who lack photo ID are aware of that site or others like it.D. How can voters obtain a photo ID if they don’t have one?
Unless PennDOT has information about a voter in its computer database, as explained in Question D. below, voters who do not have an acceptable form of photo ID (see Question A. above) must go to a PennDOT Driver’s License Center to obtain one. Voters can go to any PennDOT Driver’s License Center in Pennsylvania. The Driver’s License Center does not need to be in your home county. Getting a photo ID for voting is free of charge.
There are multiple documents voters must submit to a PennDOT Driver’s License Center in order to get a photo ID for voting. The first two are available at PennDOT Driver’s License Centers and can also be downloaded online [...]
IN ADDITION, voters must produce:
1. A social security card, and
2. An official birth certificate (with a raised seal), certificate of U.S. citizenship, certificate of naturalization or a valid U.S. passport,* and
3. Two proofs of residency, such as a lease agreement, mortgage documents, W-2 form, tax records or current utility bill.
E. What happens if an eligible voter does not have two proofs of residency?
Many eligible voters may have a hard time “proving” their residency, e.g., young adults living at home with their families. If this is the case, the voter can bring a parent with a Pennsylvania driver’s license or non-driver’s photo ID to any PennDOT Driver’s License Center. This will “count” as one proof of residency. As a second proof of residency, the voter can bring a bank statement, paystub or a credit card bill as long as the address matches the address on the parent’s driver’s license or non-driver’s photo ID. According to the State Department, if the voter does not have any of these documents, PennDOT will work with the voter to establish the second proof of residency. For example, PennDOT will also accept invoices from doctors’ offices, magazine subscriptions, or cell phone bills.
[...]
Before going to PennDOT, a voter should call 1-800-932-4600 to make sure his/her information is in the database. This is especially true if the voter’s driver’s license (or non-driver’s license photo ID) expired before 1990.
[...]
H. Do voters born in Pennsylvania have to show a birth certificate?
Most voters who were born in Pennsylvania do not have to get an official birth certificate in order to get a photo ID for voting. PA-born voters can go to a PennDOT Driver’s License Center and fill out Form HD01564F (Request for Certification of Birth Record for Voter ID Purposes Only), which can also be downloaded by going to: [...]
If the Department of Health can certify the voter’s birth record, he/she will get a letter back confirming this and also told when they can pick up their voter ID for voting. (The letter will not enclose a hard copy of the voter’s official birth certificate.) The voter can bring this letter to a PennDOT Driver’s License Center to use in place of an official birth certificate (with a raised seal). However, the voter must still complete a Form DL-54A (Application for an Initial Photo Identification Card) and the Oath/Affirmation that he/she is a registered PA voter, does not have an acceptable form of photo ID and needs one in order to vote, as well as bring a Social Security card and two proofs of residency (See Question D. above).
NOTE: This process requires making two trips to a PennDOT Driver’s License Center: One trip to fill out Form HD01564F to get certification of a Pennsylvania birth certificate and a second to actually get the photo ID for voting. According to the Department of State, this two-trip process is required so that an in-person verification of the voter’s identity is completed before the voter’s photo is taken.
I. How can voters get a birth certificate if they need or want one?
As we said in Question H. above, most voters who were born in Pennsylvania do not need to get an official birth certificate. However, if the voter wants an official (hard) copy of his/her birth certificate, or needs to get one, here is what to do:
1. Only certain people can request a birth certificate:
a. Person named on the birth certificate, who is 18 years of age or older (if under 18, an immediate family member must apply)
b. Legal representative
c. Husband/wife
d. Parent/step-parent*
e. Brother/sister/half-brother/half-sister
f. Son/daughter/stepson*/stepdaughter*
g. Grandparent/great grandparent (specify maternal or paternal)
h. Grandchild/great grandchild
i. Power of Attorney (for person named on birth certificate or immediate family member listed above)
*A step-parent or step-child is required to submit parents' marriage record supporting their relationship.
2. Applications for a PA birth certificate – except for the birth record certification request outlined in Question G. above – cost $10. There is no fee for individuals who served or are currently serving in the U.S. Armed Forces or their dependents.
3. Applications for a PA birth certificate can be requested online, by mail or in person. Mail requests are processed in approximately fourteen weeks from the date of receipt. Online requests are faster: The normal processing time for UPS delivery (a signature is required) takes approximately 15 to 18 business days or less. If the voter opts for regular mail delivery, the normal processing time is approximately 25 to 30 business days or less.
J. How can voters born outside Pennsylvania get a birth certificate?
Other states and territories of the United States have different procedures for obtaining a birth certificate. Voters who were born outside of Pennsylvania should visit: http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/w2w.htm to find out how to obtain a birth certificate.
K. How can voters prove name changes?
Documents used to prove a voter’s identity must show the same name and birth date. For that reason, PennDOT voters whose names have changed should bring documents to the PennDOT Driver’s License Center that “connect” the names. For example, if the voter got married or divorced, the voter should bring a marriage certificate or a divorce decree when getting a photo ID for voting. Voters who cannot “connect” the name they are now using with the name on their birth certificate may run into problems getting a photo ID for voting.
L. Where can voters get a Social Security card?
[...]
Here is some basic information to know for obtaining a social security card:
1. To apply for an original card, the voter must provide at least two documents to prove age, identity, and U.S. citizenship.
2. An acceptable document must be currently valid and show the voter’s name, identifying information (date of birth or age) and preferably a recent photograph. A birth certificate is not a form of identification. As proof of identity, the Social Security Administration office must see one of the following:
a. A U.S. passport
b. A state-issued driver’s license
c. A state-issued non-driver’s ID card.
3. If a voter does not have one of the documents identified in J.2 on page 9, and cannot get a replacement for one of these within 10 days, Social Security will ask to see one of the following:
a. An employee identification card/badge
b. Health insurance card (not a Medicare card) or Medicaid card
c. U.S. military identification
d. U.S. government identification card
e. Certificate of Naturalization
f. Certificate of U.S. Citizenship
g. U.S. Indian Tribal card (Social Security has to approve this as an acceptable ID)
h. Certified copy of a medical record
i. School identity card, certified record, or transcript (current year)
j. Life insurance policy
[...]
M. Where can voters find a PennDOT Driver’s License Center?
It’s important to remember that not all PennDOT offices are equipped to give out photo IDs for voting – only PennDOT Driver’s License Centers. PennDOT does not publish the telephone numbers of individual Driver’s License Centers. To find the location of Driver’s License Centers, service information and hours of operation, go to:
https://www.dot4.state.pa.us/locator...20717203913329 or call:
1. In-State: 1-800-932-4600
2. Out-of-State (if calling from a non-PA area code): 1-717-412-5300
3. Hearing Impaired (In-State): 1-800-228-0676 (TDD)
4. Hearing Impaired (Out-of-State): 1-717-412-5380 (TDD)
Also remember that voters can go to any PennDOT Driver’s License Center, not just a Center in the voter’s home county.
N. What happens if a voter can’t afford to get a photo ID for some reason?
Voters who come to the polls in November without a photo ID because they couldn’t afford to get one (let’s say, for example, the voter is indigent and can’t pay for an official birth certificate or for transportation to a PennDOT Driver’s License Center) will be allowed to vote by provisional (paper) ballot. There will be a form at the polling place for the voter to fill out that affirms that he/she is voting by provisional ballot because he/she could not afford to get one. The voter can sign the affirmation and turn it in along with his/her voted provisional ballot at the polling place.
If the indigent voter chooses not to turn in the affirmation on Election Day at the polls, he/she has six calendar days after the election to submit the affirmation to his/her county Board of Elections. This can be done electronically, by mail, by fax – or in person at the county Board of Elections. Provisional ballots of voters who do not comply within six calendar days after the election will not count.
Note: Because six calendar days after the November 6 election falls on Monday, November 12 – and government offices are closed for Veterans’ Day – the deadline for provisional ballot voters to provide information to their county Boards of Elections is Tuesday, November 13.
Note that the solution of casting a provisional ballot only seems to be available to hobos.
What they endorsed was the fact that confidence in your elections is shockingly low. No more, no less. They made recommendations that they believe may help increase confidence in your elections--no more, no less.As I said, a well-respected panel of former public servants in Democratic and Republican administrations endorsed the idea that our system is very messy and could use some standardization and stronger ID.
Are you saying that the laws are not likely to be tougher on some groups than on others? Are you saying that the Supreme Court is a guarantor of constitutionality?For some reason, Democrats have gotten some serious derangement syndrome over this voter ID issue and spent the past decade blocking every attempt to strengthen voter ID because they think it's "racist" and discriminatory. This is nonsense, especially when the resources used to fight these commonsense laws could be used to help stop the corner cases where people don't have proper ID. Nonetheless, the voting reforms in some states have progressed and have been deemed clearly constitutional by our Supreme Court.
A decade "in the making", and how much time/money/energy has been invested into making sure people who lack appropriate ID have it, in that time? I bet most of that time has been spent on purging voter rolls, sabotage, spreading disinformation through brochures, etcOnce again, I maintain that you're buying into the leftist media rhetoric on this. These laws have been over a decade in the making; this isn't "new" or sudden. Several of these state laws are a few years old. We've had a federal law in place since 2002 requiring showing ID when voting in a federal election for the first time, unless the voter registration itself required showing an ID.
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
You're being a complete whacko on this. Or just disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing.
Yes, you have to show up in-person and present documentation to the government to get a government ID. If you don't have much/any proof that you exist, this makes it harder to get a government-issued ID.
This is not unreasonable, and I struggle to imagine you actually think this is unreasonable.
If ID's are so impossible to get then how do people manage to get driving licences?
If they can't get driving licences (and I know how Americans go on about how much more driving is important there than for us in Europe) then isn't that a major issue? Shouldn't the solution be to fix the problem there?
I would imagine not being able to drive would harm my day-to-day life far more than not being able to vote. I would have thought that if the problem to being able to get proper ID's is that its too difficult/expensive then making it easier/cheaper should be the correct solution to that problem? Not just simply saying ID shouldn't be needed which does nothing whatsoever to address the real issue. The objections seem to be entirely spurious since that's not the solution getting called for it seems that something else is the real concern.
When you're 80+, you might not be driving around that much, even in America
In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.
I wonder if this is using the same math that Lewk used to write off ~16 million people as almost no one. What is an acceptable number to you for the number of people who are forced out of voting because of the financial and technical barriers that are put in their ways, much less how those barriers are used in Voter ID laws?
Conform, do not question. Its easier to submit than to point out the problems. The world would be a better place if people simply followed lockstep instead of having opinions and the mind to point out flaws.
Out of your list, I see one form of ID thats not tied to a financial burden, and even that one (government employee ID), my work charges for replacements.
The free ID, while true, is also something thats the states have faught against. Several states have issued directives to their employees to not offer these IDs and not to advertise that they exist. I believe it was Wisconsin that was firing state employees who went against that; damn those job protecting unions!
Making it difficult for people of certain social standings does not mean its impossible to all. Especially to those of a different social standing. As I've stated before I have no problem with requiring ID, but currently its rather prohibitive for certain people to get the required materials to get those IDs. That needs fixed, before Voter IDs are required.
Oh, and Europe has more cars per person than the US.
Last edited by Ominous Gamer; 08-18-2012 at 03:08 PM.
"In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."
I was denied free voter ID today: Pennsylvania
The Pittsburgh DMV is not giving free voter ID, contrary to federal law. Specifically, the DMV supervisor who refused to give it to me is named Dana Nash. This happened today (8/17/2012) at 10AM at the DMV located at 708 Smithfield Street, Pittsburgh, PA 15222. My original intention was just to change my driver's license to a PA license, and I brought all the many required ID and residency forms plus cash and a credit card. I followed the instructions on the DMV website, but it turns out they forgot to mention only checks or money orders were acceptable. That's not a big deal, the main thing is I wanted to make sure to have ID to vote with for the November election. So then I tried to get at least free state ID while I was at the DMV, because I want to vote. I was told I cannot get free state ID, because my driver's license is still valid in another state. They won't change the driver's license for free, and they won't give me a state ID for free, even though I have all the ID and I am renting an apartment here and have all the proof (rental agreement, Verizon bill to the address, and all the forms of ID they require). He told me that people who want free voter IDs have to come back to that DMV office on August 27th, when they will start giving out a state ID that will be valid ONLY for voting purposes (and they are not accepting applications until that date). Their DMV website says nothing about separate voting IDs only starting to be given out on August 27th. I already had to take my whole morning off of work (bike+bus to the DMV, wait to be served, wait for them to decide what to do with my request for free voter ID, then bike+bus to work), and now according to him I should go back on August 27th... except that he also said I wasn't eligible because I have a valid driver's license. According to the DMV website, I shouldn't have to wait until August 27th and have to return and waste more time - I should have been able to get my free state ID for voting TODAY. While I was waiting there, I spoke with a man there was helping his father, who wanted a free voter ID but was told he had to pay $13 for it (and he did). Someone needs to fix this, because clearly the law about not having to pay to vote is NOT being followed.
According to Dread's quote, an out of state ID is not a valid PA Voter ID.
"In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."
Do these requirements constitute obstacles to getting a photo ID? Yes or no. Not just for a young city-dwelling man with money, time and a good job.You're being a complete whacko on this. Or just disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing.
Yes, you have to show up in-person and present documentation to the government to get a government ID. If you don't have much/any proof that you exist, this makes it harder to get a government-issued ID.
This is not unreasonable, and I struggle to imagine you actually think this is unreasonable.
You're absolutely right when you say that: "These requirements are perfectly reasonable provided we instate these unreasonable requirements." If I accept that it's reasonable to place further obstacles in the way of some American voters then I can certainly accept those requirements as being reasonable. I don't however think that it's reasonable or even particularly bright to place further obstacles in the way of some voters in a country such as yours.
Please try to understand that I'm not just saying this because I hate you or because I think you should part your hair on the other side. If you'd been endorsing the implementation of these laws in Bangladesh I'd have agreed with you wholeheartedly. In the US, I don't agree with you. You know what? You haven't yet been able to provide any evidence to support your claims that the gains with these various voter-ID laws would outweigh the problems in the real world.
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
Also, wtf is up with these people:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mary-b..._b_954976.html
???
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
My semi-educated guess would be that it's for the same reason, because it hampers voting-roll based fraud which has been the iconic example of Dem-sponsored cheating since the 1960 presidential election.
Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"
It's nonsense to label as an "obstacle" identification requirements to get an ID, such as providing a birth certificate. These requirements have always been in place. They are "obstacles" insomuch as air friction is an obstacle for planes taking off. If anything, these laws have made it easier to get identification by waiving fees sometimes associated with obtaining government ID. I got my government ID long before I ever had a job. All my unemployed friends have IDs so they can spend all day drinking. Considering that ID is free in many states these days if you don't have the money, the requirements have effectively been eased.
Please step into the real world and realize it's honestly not that hard to get a government ID, and it's also really useful/important to get one. Identifying voters at the voting booth is a pretty standard feature of the brutal dictatorships you Yurps live in. Carrying government identification while voting in government elections isn't a burdensome requirement, especially when the alternative is a completely haphazard and totally decentralized process.
This falls somewhere between being dishonest with the facts to a downright lie. Especially since you're making a sweeping statement for all 50 states.
Florida used to take Hospital announcements or declarations as proof, as a substitute to an official birth certificate. No longer. My mother is also on her 3rd birth certificate because the state keeps changing what they consider a valid birth certificate, and each time she has needed to provide a "valid" birth certificate, she has had to replace her old one with her own funds.
"In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."
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