NYC Mayor Considering Push to Ban Smoking At Parks/Beaches

[']['ear]

What the Hell is wrong with you, and can it be treated with modern medicine

I said something wrong?

Are you both that obtuse?

No, I am not a fucking idiot, therefore I know what the original meaning is. What I said was that I had never heard the word used with its original meaning. It's like the original meaning of the word gay being happy, see. It has fallen into such disuse that it is no longer used in that context.

I've never heard the word used in its porn context. I still hear it fairly often in its original context, and it comes up in books and articles I read with semi-regularity. Which again leads me to wonder what the hell your life is like.

But hey, I regularly use scat with its original meaning. This has to count for something, right?

Feces or singing? I use it in both contexts. Taught my little NYC nieces "scat" a couple of weeks back, too. Found some deer scat in the yard, told them what it was, and explained the word. They need that kind of education, since they think that deer are very large rats.

[littlelolligagged]

Singing ...

I had a great book as a baby, too Scat, Scat, Go Away Little Cat. I think it is in a box full of children's books in my basement.

But your nieces think deer are very large rats? That's so depressing. I hope they think pigeons are flying rats.

[']['ear]

Joking. They've seen enough nature TV to know what deer are. We directly abut a few acres of green space, so the deer are ubiquitous. They annoy me, but the nieces were charmed, particularly when a couple of fawns were chasing each other around our back yard. Oh, and a deer came up and started munching on our compost pile in the middle of us grilling. The nieces enjoyed that, because the deer was chowing on corn husks they had just put on the pile.

[littlelolligagged]

There is a rather large community made up of multiple subdivisions with shared amenities near me (I have several friends who live in it). Every time I drive on the main road in it a deer crosses the road in front of me. Drives me insane. One day I won't slam on the brakes fast enough and I'll hit one.

[']['ear]

Yes, they're pests for any developed area with reasonable green space for them to exploit. Grr. Well, that's what happens to ecosystems when we screw 'em up.

[Dreadnaught]

NYC considers banning smoking in parks

By Martha T. Moore, USA TODAY

NEW YORK — In Times Square, people once smoked just about anything. Now you can't even light up a cigarette.
After banning cars from Times Square last year to turn the street over to pedestrians, the city now plans to outlaw smoking in the new plazas.

Mayor Michael Bloomberg announced plans Wednesday to forbid smoking in all city parks, beaches and pedestrian plazas. The list of 1,700 parks and 14 miles of beach includes Central Park, the Coney Island beach and boardwalk, and the new pedestrian plazas in Times Square.

Bloomberg has been aggressive in restricting public smoking, citing the danger to non-smokers of secondhand smoke. Smoking already is forbidden at playgrounds, outdoor sports events and concerts, and in bars and restaurants. The city would not be the first to stub out cigarettes at beaches and parks: Chicago and Los Angeles already have such bans in place.


"When you breathe secondhand tobacco smoke, you're inhaling a bouquet of ... toxins and carcinogens," Bloomberg said, announcing the plan with City Council Speaker Christine Quinn. The bill goes before the council today. With the ban, "when New Yorkers and visitors ... go to the parks and beaches for fresh air, there will actually be fresh air for them to breathe," the mayor said.

There's not much green space or waterfront in Times Square, which is crisscrossed by traffic and 350,000 pedestrians daily. Once both disdained and celebrated for its peep shows, X-rated movies, scam artists and other purveyors of vice, the "Crossroads of the World" is now heavily populated with tourists visiting family-friendly Broadway shows, theme restaurants and corporate flagship stores such as M&M's World and Toys R Us.

If you want to light up, keep moving. Smoking on the sidewalk will be OK, but step into the pedestrian plaza and you'd be in a no-smoking zone — and risking a $50 ticket, mayoral spokeswoman Jessica Scaperotti says.

The ban would mean cleaner streets as well as cleaner air, says Tim Tompkins, president of the Times Square Alliance, a business owners group.

"We won't have to pick up what is at the very least hundreds of thousands and probably millions of cigarette butts in the course of the year," he says. The Alliance employs more than 50 sanitation workers to help keep the neighborhood clean. "The time-honored tradition of throwing your cigarette butts to the curb is alive and well in Times Square."

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...ing16_ST_N.htm

There seems to be very little opposition to this in the City Council. While I will personally benefit from a smoking ban in parks and beaches, I'm shocked and dismayed this is actually being pushed.

My building recently almost sued someone who refused to pay her building fees due to someone smoking on the sidewalk in front of the building. The resident claimed the smoke was drifting up to her 5th floor apartment and "poisoning" her. Furthermore, she claimed we had authority over the sidewalk in front of the building and could stop people from smoking there. Maybe she's just a bit ahead of her time.

[Ominous Gamer]

"We won't have to pick up what is at the very least hundreds of thousands and probably millions of cigarette butts in the course of the year," he says. The Alliance employs more than 50 sanitation workers to help keep the neighborhood clean. "The time-honored tradition of throwing your cigarette butts to the curb is alive and well in Times Square."

I understand you want to approach this as big bad government telling the citizens what to do, its your thing, we all get that.
You originally brushed off the above statement because that wasn't how you saw the problem being addressed. However now you're quoting articles that are addressing the pollution problem. So lets try to move past the "THATS NOT WHAT THIS IS ABOUT" mindset.


The litter is a problem. Smokers have a tradition of "throwing [their] cigaretter butts to the curb." The city wants to address this problem. So how do you want it to be approached?

You obviously don't want the government saying you can't do something somewhere. We all get that, its your thing.
However, I also get the vibe that you don't like what you consider unneeded government expenses, so installing more recepicals, and the extra man hours to maintain them (because of the actions of a few, or even most), wouldn't be a viable option either.

Personally, something that reigns in the problem of people littering, while improving the experience the parks and beaches would offer to everyone, while also possibly reducing the need for 50 sanitation workers, seems like the lesser of a necessary evil.

[Dreadnaught]

As I said, litter is illegal in all circumstances. Smokers litter with impunity. I'd rather see them fined for littering cigarette butts and have it actually enforced.

[Ominous Gamer]

Due to the nature of smoking litter and how hard it is to catch someone in the actual act, you quickly find your self with harassment, profiling, or even quota complaints. Seriously, what type of public to enforcer ratio do you think would be needed to cover smoking litter and already existing duties. Big, bad, and strong armed government, not an acceptable option.

[Dreadnaught]

Police officers stop nuisances all the time. Public drinking, vandalism, etc. It's really not like cigarette butts are any different, except cops have never really tried enforcing litter laws on them.

[Ominous Gamer]

and you're comparing public drinking to flicking or dropping a butt on the ground? As if they are of equal exposure towards being spotted as a violation?
instead of, I don't know, comparing public drinking to public smoking?


I'm not exactly sure where you're able to pull in the "fact" that cops never really tried enforcing litter laws on smokers. But hey, maybe you spend your hobby time watching how many people throw their butts down directly in front of cops.

[GGT]

They should have smoking receptacles on top of all litter bins. Some are even "fashionable" now. I think most smokers wouldn't litter their butts if they had ashtrays around, just as most people with litter won't throw it on the ground if there's a trash bin around. It's not rocket science.

But I can't take anyone seriously about the open-air pollution thing until they ban buses and trains and trucks. Hell, hang around homes and neighborhoods close to O'Hare or Midway and the El trains, add in highways, idling taxis and cars, bus and truck diesel fumes.....it's disingenuous to whine about a few smokers polluting their fresh air .

[littlelolligagged]

I was at a South Carolina State Park last weekend. It was absolutely gorgeous - but there weren't butt-bins on top of the trash receptacles (and there were actually precious few trash receptacles, now that I think about it). I watched the man at the campsite across from ours toss his butts on the ground on a regular basis. They didn't throw their other trash on the ground, though; why should ciggy butts be any different?

[GGT]

No idea. Same reason I see people throw chewed gum wads on the sidewalk? My kid once tossed an apple core out the car window, and I was stunned. But he had a point---totally biodegradable, or food for the crows and opossums so they don't have to forage trash cans.....

Anyway, maybe that guy was "field stripping" his smoke. That means they rip the paper and tobacco bits away from the filter, and pocket the filters. It's only the filter that's considered "litter".

[Dreadnaught]

Because police officers never enforce littering rules with cigarette butts, which has thus conditioned smokers to not consider it litter. If police just started going to the nearest park where lots of smokers congregate and hand out tickets to people who littered their butts, people would stop just throwing them on the ground.

Contrary to what Ominous is suggesting, we don't need Patton's army to stop a very elementary public nuisance. And yes, I have been in very public places around lots of smokers with lots of police officers around. The police simply don't fine people for putting butts on the ground. We can fight petty vandalism with simple police work on the beat, but for cigarette butt litter we need a scorched earth policy of banning public smoking?

[Ominous Gamer]

hand out tickets to people who littered their butts, people would stop just throwing them on the ground.

you're still ignoring the difficulty of actually seeing the act happen. Even if it does, you just mentioned how people still violate the open liquor laws and vandalism, why would butt litter be different? When you started this thread, the original supporters even mentioned how they aren't expecting this to end the act completely, and didn't want the fines to be at break the bank levels. Moving the violation time frame to a larger window allows for quicker identification and easier work.

This is New York CIty, the city that attempts to fine people several thousand dollars for using their car to pick up discarded A/C units. If butt litter was a viable and worthwhile infraction to catch and enforce I highly doubt the police would be ignoring it; as I would say of any city.

[GGT]

Then the people hanging in public with the public litterers could also say something. Silly to wait for a cop to write a ticket. Peer pressure works wonders.

[Dreadnaught]

Police hover around parks are staring at people throwing butts down all the time. Just like police watch people jaywalk all the time. I know you don't live here, but this isn't that hard to imagine things slipping by.

GGT- Funny you should mention...

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/17/ny...17smoking.html

[Ominous Gamer]

this isn't that hard to imagine things slipping by.

thats the exact problem you're ignoring. No I don't live in NYC, which you somehow manage to dodge with in a lot of threads lately, but that doesn't mean NYC is the only city that smokes

Peer pressure works wonders.

The act is done, there is no peer pressure, only a reaction to past event. Dread's link about people addressing the problem, while its happening, only enforces that.

[GGT]

The act is done, there is no peer pressure, only a reaction to past event. Dread's link about people addressing the problem, while its happening, only enforces that.

Only true for butts found lying around. If you see a smoker throw a butt on the beach, I see no reason why you wouldn't say hey, dude, littering isn't cool (or however you speak to strangers). Maybe I'm just one of those obnoxious strangers who would pick your straw wrapper off the sidewalk and say hey, dude, do you expect your mother to pick up after you at home, too? Or variations thereof.

[Dreadnaught]

OG, you were the one trying to make a comparison about NY. When we discuss NY, I may bring up the fact that I live here.

[GGT]

GGT- Funny you should mention...

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/17/ny...17smoking.html

I'm a freeloader. Didn't have access to read your link.

I'm not really sure what OG is going on about. Banning smoking in restaurants moved into banning smoking in bars and clubs, and it has morphed into complaints of smokers on the street. Everywhere. Not just NYC, but in any shared wall apartment or condo, beaches and sidewalks, store fronts and public entries. Airports even have a 50 foot non-smoking area in front of electric doors. Some employers even ban smoking in cars on their parking lots. The next generation is complaining about smokers in free and unobstructed air space, like beaches and open fields. If they can't use the "clean air" argument, they'll try the "littering" one.

It's stupid. Truly, unbelievably stupid.

[GGT]

Smoking. Smokers. I saw this pictorial today. I dare anyone to tell these guys they can't have some cartons of Marlboros, if that's what helps them cope. When they come home, I dare you to chastise them for grabbing a smoke outside a bar/club/theatre/hotel or whatever. Yeah yeah, smoking is bad for you. So are McDonald's french fries and unprotected sex. But if you think your air is pure and clean by banning the few smokers that remain, think again. You may be more likely to die from choking on a fucking peanut or carrot chunks than being harmed from free-air smokers.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38799987

[Nessus]

"For the troops"? Really?

[GGT]

"For the troops"? Really?

You posed that as a question, so what are you asking---before I assume I know what you're saying.

[Nessus]

You seem to be evoking an emotional argument that smoking in NY parks shouldn't be banned because shell-shocked veterans want to light it up sometimes. Or something? Anyway, the whole "think of the troops" shtick is almost as tired as the "think of the children" line.

[oldmunchkin]

Ok, I admit I just now read this thread, since I get tired of defending my right to have a cigarette, whether with my drink at the bar or after my meal in the restaurant or while I'm relaxing in the park!

Yes, the litter from cigarette butts is a bad thing. So is the litter from the 6-pak of soda or the tissue paper the guy at the donut shop put under your donut! People...it's called a fucking garbage can! It's not that hard to put the cigarette out on the grass or pavement, make sure it's cool, and deposit it in the trash receptacle!

As far as it goes, what's the big deal about having a few more employed people who gather up the garbage bags and pick up the butts? Hell, there are millions of people out of work right now! Maybe tie unemployment benefits in with 30 hours a week community service, policing the parks and such and cleaning up the litter! Or what about all those people who get sentenced to community service thru the courts? Why can't they be used for litter control?

Caution: Personal anecdote ahead!

After waiting 3+ hours in the ER last night, I decided it was damned well time for a smoke. The doctor told me the "entire campus" is non-smoking! Considering I was in pain and already more than a little pissed off, I said, "So what! I'm going out this door and take a couple drags off my cigarette! If you wish to call the cops and tell them I am smoking a legal substance in the parking lot, that's completely up to you!" The funny part is, they had one of those fancy-pants smoker's receptacle things outside the fucking door, and it was full of butts!

[GGT]

You seem to be evoking an emotional argument that smoking in NY parks shouldn't be banned because shell-shocked veterans want to light it up sometimes. Or something? Anyway, the whole "think of the troops" shtick is almost as tired as the "think of the children" line.

I make a more rational argument on several levels. If it's about Clean Air, then smoking is a miniscule component (behind smog, pollution, diesel fuel exhaust fumes, etc).

I think it's the other people who are being emotional against free-air smokers. They don't really have a case for banning the use of a legal product like tobacco, any more than they can ban drinking because drunk people MIGHT piss in the alley, or MIGHT drive drunk.

Our troops smoking is just a very good visual analogy of adults using a legal product for its intended purpose: stress reduction or the pleasure principle.

Bloomberg is one of those confusing American pols who says it's a Constitutional right to have certain freedoms, worthy of "fighting for", but then tries to ban things like trans-fats in restaurant food and smoking in open air. But I dare him to tell returning Iraq or Afghanistan vets that now they're home, on New York soil, they pretty much can't smoke anywhere. Not in a bar, restaurant, sidewalk, boardwalk, parking lot or beach. Maybe not even in their own home, if it has shared walls.

It's stupid because it's duplicitous and disingenuous.

[oldmunchkin]

Aren't parks and beaches, at least partially, funded by tax dollars? If so, then shouldn't a NY resident who smokes have the right to enjoy a legal product in those areas? After all, his taxes are helping pay for the upkeep of said park or beach! All whining about "second-hand smoke" aside, these are open air spaces where something a little as a cigarette (or cigar) certainly doesn't contribute that much to the pollution in those areas when you consider all the other carcinogens being released by cars, trucks, buses, etc! And what about pipe smokers? They seldom, if ever, leave litter around when they are done. They tap out their dead ashes and go on their way.

[Nessus]

I don't understand the "legal substance" talking point; substances are legal and illegal by the mercy of the State, if she so chose, she could make tobacco an illegal substance too Whether that'd be sensible is dubious, see prohibition and subsequent war on drugs, but shaming and humiliating the smokers seems like a fairly prudent course of social correction.