What the hell is libertarianism?

[']['ear]

What people do in a crowd though, is gather round accidents, rubbernecking. All of your posts have been massive multi-car wrecks since that post by Cain.

True. But I try to help somebody rather than just sitting around and gawking. If I see a crime, I interfere as long as my safety is not seriously jeopardized (strangely, I have broken up 3 bike thefts in my life: 1 at college, 2 in Berkeley where such thefts are endemic.) No Kitty Genovese when I'm around.

And when somebody goes beyond the pale, I jump in. I attacked Silver for this reason when he went after Lolli, and I went after Cain about his twice trying to get depressed tweens to kill themselves. Calling attention to gross misbehavior gets the mods to act, like calling attention to crimes gets the police to act.

How spastic do you have to be not to know that getting a reaction like the one you have given is pretty much him going fishing and landing a fish "THIS BIG"?

How spastic do you have to be to not know that what bullies love best is to have everybody cowed and not stand up to their offenses. Like, erm, here. ONE person has called Cain's behavior unreasonable (Nessie) and that was before his abomination of a post about my disease and health.

His post was much more shocking before you started shrieking about it in every fucking post and thread on this site.

Why? Really, why? Does the magnitude of the crime change based on the amount of attention it engenders? Or is the crime a crime?

Now I wish him luck with his next riposte.

Please tell me that's hyperbole. Surely you are a more decent human being than that.


Cain is a cancer. His vicious attacks on anybody who stands up to him will keep TWF from growing, just like it drove off countless new members in CC. You all know this, you're just too selfishly wrapped up in reality TV to make an ethical stand. When you do make that stand, I will back off, and not until then.

[Steely Glint]

Calling attention to gross misbehavior gets the mods to act, like calling attention to crimes gets the police to act.

Yeah, well, the problem with that is that we have no clear rules for the mods to act on, and no idea of how we should arrive at those rules. This site was set up by Wraith and the software and hosting have been paid for by anonymous donations. No one has any clear 'my site, my rules' authority to just lay down the law, except maybe Wraith who has stated he wants to be nothing more than a technical admin.

Now, if we had some clear rules this whole drama would not have happened because we could have either said, 'Tear is right, what Cain said is not acceptable here' and punished him accordingly *which would have happened with or without your shrieking fit* or said to you, 'we've decided freedom of speech is absolute here, if you don't like it you know where the door is'. Unfortunately, we have neither clear rules or any recognized method of deciding upon them. I knew this was going to be a problem eventually, though I might as well have talked to the wind for all the attention anyone paid me.

[']['ear]

All true. If it's anarchy, Cain will be in hog heaven and I'll be outta here. But an FYI for you guys: the reason there's a community is because it had standards. And part of the ghoat town feel at CC was due to Cain running off almost every new guy. Just facts, what to do with them is up to you. But I'd recommend the insulting "is it as offensive as a 9/11 conspiracy theory to Dread" is a piss poor standard.


Edit: And did anybody say a word to Cain? No. Pisses me off almost as much as his comment. There's a dearth of decency here.

[Spawnie]

And when somebody goes beyond the pale, I jump in. I attacked Silver for this reason when he went after Lolli, and I went after Cain about his twice trying to get depressed tweens to kill themselves. Calling attention to gross misbehavior gets the mods to act, like calling attention to crimes gets the police to act.

Yeah but this is the internet and not only should you have developed a thicker skin by now, you should be wearing full body armour when it comes to cain. Quite simply, his MO isnt to actually accuse you of having gay sex, its just to get a reaction from you via outrageous statements. Which you have absolutely gone mental over. Its rediculous. Stop it.

How spastic do you have to be to not know that what bullies love best is to have everybody cowed and not stand up to their offenses. Like, erm, here. ONE person has called Cain's behavior unreasonable (Nessie) and that was before his abomination of a post about my disease and health.

Blah blah blah, bullies need to be stood up to. Crying louder and louder doesnt help. Manning the fuck up generally does.

Why? Really, why? Does the magnitude of the crime change based on the amount of attention it engenders? Or is the crime a crime?

Its not a crime. You just had an argument and he hurt your feelings. Grow up.

Please tell me that's hyperbole. Surely you are a more decent human being than that.

Nope. And its not lowered my standing as a human one whit. Unless by human you mean "big wuss".

Cain is a cancer. His vicious attacks on anybody who stands up to him will keep TWF from growing, just like it drove off countless new members in CC. You all know this, you're just too selfishly wrapped up in reality TV to make an ethical stand. When you do make that stand, I will back off, and not until then.

Answer this - more likely - everyone is an amoral monster or you are over-reacting?

[Aimless]

The truth is the one Steely and Nessie and others have been repeating over and over again: they should both just give it a rest. They don't have to like each other, they just have to stop letting it disturb every single thread on the forums.

Tear, we aren't retards, we're more than capable of appreciating both that Cain is an asshole who gets a kick out of baiting you and that your reaction is too disruptive to be acceptable. Both of you should give it a rest. Forever!

[CitizenCain]

No. Might feel like it sometimes, but no. Not in a scientific sense.

Yeah, but I'm not exactly using "parasite" in its full scientific meaning, am I?

Are you an anarchist?

No, but I like anarchists. It's really easy to beat them up and take their stuff, since they don't believe in government.

There's nothing wrong with anarchism, per se, except that it's completely impractical and unrealistic. The ones that don't self destruct internally (internal power struggles) invariably get conquered and have some other form of government imposed on them as soon as an organized group of outsiders find 'em. I think it just boils down to the reality that it's a lot easier to steal what you need than it is to earn or create it - so if you don't want to have all your shit stolen, you need some form of organization to protect what is yours. And anarchy necessarily lacks that protection, thus eventually devolving into a might-makes-right power structure.

Do you object to civilization in general? Seriously, you realize all that compulsory money pays for civlization, the technology and economic infrastructure that's provided us all with exceptional standard of living.

To which I would respond that democracies and socialist societies invariably fail through exactly the mechanism you're lauding. People figure out they can vote themselves money, government mission creep expands government liabilities to unsustainable levels, and before you know it, the productive elements that had previously sustained society are bled dry.

You would give that all up so you could reduce your taxes? (I'm assuming you don't object to law enforcement, courts, the military... or do you?)

Not in principle, but certainly in their current forms.

I know Tear told a lot of lies but I wasn't aware that he'd been pretending to be a Contra.

He claimed he was drafted to fight in the Nicaraguan conflict. Since the US didn't use the draft for that little war, but the Contras did... that mans he claimed to have been a Contra, right?

There are plenty of classical liberals who don't support 4 and 5, but I don't think I've seen any hardcore libertarians who did not. The likes of Cato and the Libertarian Party in the US certainly support those points.

It really does depend - all Libertarians would agree that a country/nation has a right to defend itself with a military force, but beyond that point of agreement, it gets complicated. Can a preemptive strike ever be considered "defense?" Is it legitimate to launch an invasion in response to a military attack? What of military alliances and the sort? Can a doctrine of Nuclear Primacy be considered libertarian? Etc. It really boils down to how broadly defined "defense" is, and to a large extent, whether one attaches a level of proportionality to the non-aggression principle.

but I am nevertheless interested in knowing what libertarians believe.

Well, have you read the Wikipedia page I provided? It's a decent run down of the various types of libertarian and their general beliefs.

We may be a relatively small group, but it's still pretty diverse - like asking what "liberals" believe or what "conservatives" believe.

Really, one of the only "all encompassing" definitions of libertarian belief you're going to find is that it's a political philosophy which advocates maximizing personal liberties and [as a consequence of that] minimizing government.

No, of course not. But can you have a society wherein some people live as libertarians and others do not? Basically have two subgroups that play by different rules?

Probably. But certainly not under our current political/government dynamic - one size fits all, no way opt out or select yourself into a different system. There are some interesting books and discussions among libertarians around that topic - the idea of whether or not it's possible to have a country/society with multiple organizations that perform the functions of government, where "citizens" would be free to contract with whichever organization they prefer - but as it's never been tried, it's hard to say whether it's possible or not.

Libertarians advocate deregulation, no taxes, open markets, which is the ideal situation for oligopolies and monopolies to get bigger and more powerful.
Ironically libertarians say they oppose monopolies.
So they say something, and they support measures to achieve the exact opposite.

Stop being bat-shit insane, please. And, as usual, you're just wrong.

There's nothing that says libertarians have to oppose laws against price dumping, price fixing, and/or other assorted monopoly/oligopoly abuse.

Tear, this is the internet. Don't take it seriously. I bet Cain spends his weekends volunteering at an orphanage.

Well, I would, but ever since my conviction, I'm legally required to stay 1000 yards away from children at all times.

FIIIINE, I'll be more realistic; I bet Cain spends his weekdays tending blind puppies and helping the autistics.

No. I've more or less given up my fellow man at this point in time, and am basically sick of helping a mass of ungrateful, vile asshats in exchange for nothing but abuse. So fuck 'em all, may you all get what you want and be damned by it. Enjoy life's "other great tragedy," and do it without me.

Cain is a cancer. His vicious attacks on anybody who stands up to him will keep TWF from growing, just like it drove off countless new members in CC. You all know this, you're just too selfishly wrapped up in reality TV to make an ethical stand. When you do make that stand, I will back off, and not until then.

You know what's funny? Other than you, I mean.

The only new member around here [that I've noticed] is YoungMage. You've flamed him, most of the regs have been essentially telling him to shut up and stop being such a twit, and even the mods have threatened him. (Not without cause, but they've done it all the same.)

But the big, bad, new-user-hating Cain hasn't. Hmm, how odd. Maybe *you* should stop being a vicious cancer who runs the risk of driving off the new blood, and I should keep defending the poor new kid from your cruel and unprovoked attacks.

[Young Mage]

Well, I would, but ever since my conviction, I'm legally required to stay 1000 yards away from children at all times.

Are you seriously a criminal?

No. I've more or less given up my fellow man at this point in time, and am basically sick of helping a mass of ungrateful, vile asshats in exchange for nothing but abuse. So fuck 'em all, may you all get what you want and be damned by it. Enjoy life's "other great tragedy," and do it without me.

But...what about the old people? They're like gurus. You need to help the elderly!

You know what's funny? Other than you, I mean.

The only new member around here [that I've noticed] is YoungMage. You've flamed him, most of the regs have been essentially telling him to shut up and stop being such a twit, and even the mods have threatened him. (Not without cause, but they've done it all the same.)

But the big, bad, new-user-hating Cain hasn't. Hmm, how odd. Maybe *you* should stop being a vicious cancer who runs the risk of driving off the new blood, and I should keep defending the poor new kid from your cruel and unprovoked attacks.

....That's kind of true. Everyone tells me to grow up and stuff and they even insult me on a few occasions. None of them try to troll me as hard as you do Tear. Thing is, I'm smart enough to not get into a pussy-fight with you.

And frankly, Cain kept me on this site. I find his replies too funny and Lolli, she's a milf.

[EyeKhan]

FIIIINE, I'll be more realistic; I bet Cain spends his weekdays tending blind blinding puppies and helping vaccinating the autistics.

Fixed.

Yeah, but I'm not exactly using "parasite" in its full scientific meaning, am I?

Of course not. What are we discussing again?

No, but I like anarchists. It's really easy to beat them up and take their stuff, since they don't believe in government.

Any functional anarchist must also be armed and paranoid, I'd think. I think anarchism is absolutly impossible for a sane human being. Practically as soon as you get two guys in a room, someone's dominant and the rules begin. That's just how we are. (Human Condition )

To which I would respond that democracies and socialist societies invariably fail through exactly the mechanism you're lauding.

But there's no historical precedent/evidence for that at all. In fact, its the exact opposite. Liberal society has flourished beyond all imagination in the last 100 years. That's what I don't get about conservatives (and you libertarians, as if there's a difference ) - they want to tear down the mechanism that's made this nation, and Western society generally, a fantastic success.

He claimed he was drafted to fight in the Nicaraguan conflict. Since the US didn't use the draft for that little war, but the Contras did... that mans he claimed to have been a Contra, right?

A funny, related annecdote: I was in my first year of college when that conflict was going strong and my mother had a habit of asking me what I was doing in school but not listening to my response. I told her things like we were splitting atoms in chemistry class and she'd nod and smile. So one time I told her there was a recruiter for the Contras on campus and that for serving 4 months over the summer you were guaranteed 40 acres of land in Nicaragua when the war was over - and that I'd signed up. That got her attention - she was totally pissed off... "What!?! OH NO YOU'RE NOT GOING TO NICARAGUA!"

[Timbuk2]

and Lolli, she's a milf.

Lolli m'dear, we've found your new sig.

[littlelolligagged]

Lolli m'dear, we've found your new sig.

I don't need to advertise.

[GGT]

[QUOTE=EyeKhan;22439]

Of course not. What are we discussing again?

Any functional anarchist must also be armed and paranoid, I'd think. I think anarchism is absolutly impossible for a sane human being. Practically as soon as you get two guys in a room, someone's dominant and the rules begin. That's just how we are. (Human Condition )

You snake.

<snip>

A funny, related annecdote: I was in my first year of college when that conflict was going strong and my mother had a habit of asking me what I was doing in school but not listening to my response. I told her things like we were splitting atoms in chemistry class and she'd nod and smile. So one time I told her there was a recruiter for the Contras on campus and that for serving 4 months over the summer you were guaranteed 40 acres of land in Nicaragua when the war was over - and that I'd signed up. That got her attention - she was totally pissed off... "What!?! OH NO YOU'RE NOT GOING TO NICARAGUA!"

You evil snake.

[EyeKhan]

You evil snake.

Ok, that post eitehr needs some editing or I'm more clueless than I thought.

[GGT]

Damn tags. I need more coffee. You?

[EyeKhan]

Damn tags. I need more coffee. You?

You know you're fascinated by the human condition too.

[Crowheart]

A funny, related annecdote: I was in my first year of college when that conflict was going strong and my mother had a habit of asking me what I was doing in school but not listening to my response. I told her things like we were splitting atoms in chemistry class and she'd nod and smile. So one time I told her there was a recruiter for the Contras on campus and that for serving 4 months over the summer you were guaranteed 40 acres of land in Nicaragua when the war was over - and that I'd signed up. That got her attention - she was totally pissed off... "What!?! OH NO YOU'RE NOT GOING TO NICARAGUA!"

She's pissed because it's supposed to be 40 acres and a mule.
Sneaky Contras and their mule-omitting small print..

[']['ear]

The only new member around here [that I've noticed] is YoungMage. You've flamed him, most of the regs have been essentially telling him to shut up and stop being such a twit, and even the mods have threatened him. (Not without cause, but they've done it all the same.)

But the big, bad, new-user-hating Cain hasn't. Hmm, how odd. Maybe *you* should stop being a vicious cancer who runs the risk of driving off the new blood, and I should keep defending the poor new kid from your cruel and unprovoked attacks.

You've insulted him ten times as much as I have. Typical lying snake.

[Nessus]

Oh for Pete's sake

[littlelolligagged]

Don't drag poor Pete into it.

What did Pete ever do to you?

[EyeKhan]

Don't drag poor Pete into it.

What did Pete ever do to you?

Didn't he deny Jesus three times before the Cock crowed twice. Or something? That's pretty fucked up bein' it was god and all.

[Young Mage]

She's pissed because it's supposed to be 40 acres and a mule.
Sneaky Contras and their mule-omitting small print..

I GET THAT REFERENCE. Freedman's Bureau!
Ultimate goal: integration of free blacks during the Post antebellum era.
General Something Howard was in charge of it
Three "main" goals
- immediate (food and clothing)
- mid (education of blacks, also the most successful) They got a ton of northern teachers to go down south and build schools and shit
- long term (48 acres and a mule) failed hard and largely unsuccessful

I feel so smart. First reference I ever got.

You've insulted him ten times as much as I have. Typical lying snake.

*sigh* have you realized he's just been joking the entire time? He even "helped" me with my MUN paper. Yes, his ideas would have gotten be locked-up in a mental institution, but they made me laugh nonetheless. He's also one of the three members who *gasp* stood up for me!

[LittleFuzzy]

You've insulted him ten times as much as I have. Typical lying snake.

See this, this right here? This is why we don't care. You are completely incapable of perceiving it, but you are both irrational and delusional regarding people you've recently or repeatedly been in conflict with.

[']['ear]

See this, this right here? This is why we don't care. You are completely incapable of perceiving it, but you are both irrational and delusional regarding people you've recently or repeatedly been in conflict with.

Cain and Loki both enjoy calling me a pathological liar nearly every time they reply to me. Since that itself is a lie, and both usually lie about other things in these responses, why should I not point it out? Hackery is hackery. Now, if it ain't directed at me, I usually let it slide. But Cain calling me to task about flaming somebody? 'Tis laughable. He's the #1 initiator of flames in our community, and always has been, and he distributes those flames most widely.

[Young Mage]

Tear, right now all I see is:
You VS Cain
You VS Me
You VS Eye
You VS [insert name of a member at TWF]

What do all those slap-fights have in common? (Hint: there's a whiny pussy involved)

[']['ear]

1) You forgot Loki.
2) You flatter yourself: I'm not paying much attention to you, nor have I gotten in a "fight" with you. You just don't say much that interests me. I realize you WANT somebody to get into a fight with you, but nobody is interested.
3) You've pissed off most of the forum, and they have told you so. So you are hardly isolated in your non-fight with me.
4) Chaloobi and I had a conflict a while back. That was isolated, and is past. We generally get along well.
5) There are no other ongoing conflicts I have with people.
6) You're trolling. In fact this very post of yours shouts a need for attention. Go away.

[Catgrrl]

seriously, you people give me a goddamn headache. Maybe stop the pissing contest, and reread how ridiculous you all sound in this silly ass argument.

[Young Mage]

Yeah, let's all take a woman's advice and get along.

If you consider a post aimed at you "a cry to attention", i don't know what you're doing. You're fighting simultaneously in at least five different threads.

[Catgrrl]

Yes, I am all woman, and if a woman is sick of seeing men bitch and moan, you know that it's gone too far. We women are the queens of bitching and moaning, so our meter is pretty high. And several posters here have exceeded the whiner threshold.

[LittleFuzzy]

Cain and Loki both enjoy calling me a pathological liar nearly every time they reply to me.

Which is the fairly natural consequence of your decision to make up a persona and use it for four or five years, as you've acknowledged a time or two in the past, when your illness didn't have you nerdraging quite so hard. And it's something you're continuing with your constant and obvious switches between saying everything Kane posts is a lie, and insisting that it's serious, he means all of it, and we should ban him for it. Even in your delusional state you can't simultaneously believe his recent pedophilia comments are another made up story and him speaking the truth about himself, but you've still switched back and forth between those positions over the course of a single day. We all understand that you're temporarily willing to take anything negative he says at face value, as possible aids in getting him banned, but it kinda runs counter to your insistence that you aren't constantly lying.

He's the #1 initiator of flames in our community, and always has been, and he distributes those flames most widely.

Again, you've acknowledged in the past, when your physical illness wasn't having such an obvious effect on your mental health, that the above is actually a description of you.

[EyeKhan]

You VS Eye

Hey, leave me out of it. This is nothing I want to be involved with.

[Young Mage]

Yes, I am all woman, and if a woman is sick of seeing men bitch and moan, you know that it's gone too far. We women are the queens of bitching and moaning, so our meter is pretty high. And several posters here have exceeded the whiner threshold.

Chill it was a joke. I come from a matriarchal household and I doubt i'll ever truly be in charge because I consider women having much harder tasks in today's world.