Finland: Broadband Access is a Legal Right

[Ziggy Stardust]

Fourthed:

[EyeKhan]

This whole thing is probably a waste of money.

How do you define what is a waste and what isn't?

[Illusions]

How do you define what is a waste and what isn't?

By the usage requirements of the people being provided subsidized broadband connections compared to the costs of providing it coupled with whether or not that money could provide larger improvements elsewhere?

[Aimless]

It may depend on what your basic attitude is:

a. The internet is a luxury

b. The internet is an integral part of western societies

[EyeKhan]

Or it could come down to other concepts: Maybe someone wanted Finland to be the first nation in the world to provide internet access to 100% of its population and that distinction is worthwhile. Or maybe the government has some goal, like paperless beauracracy, or classroomless schooling, or who knows what the hell, and the savings will more than offset the cost of servicing the boonies. Or maybe someone thinks that the wonders of the internet are something everyone in Finland who wants, should have, and the Money is <gasp> irrelevant.

[Nessus]

Or it could come down to other concepts: Maybe someone wanted Finland to be the first nation in the world to provide internet access to 100% of its population and that distinction is worthwhile. Or maybe the government has some goal, like paperless beauracracy, or classroomless schooling, or who knows what the hell, and the savings will more than offset the cost of servicing the boonies. Or maybe someone thinks that the wonders of the internet are something everyone in Finland who wants, should have, and the Money is <gasp> irrelevant.

Or the gummint is enshrining into law what is already de facto reality to get leftist feel-good vibes. Maybe.

[EyeKhan]

Or the gummint is enshrining into law what is already de facto reality to get leftist feel-good vibes. Maybe.

Votes! Of course! That's why no one's allowed in my government unless they say emphatically they believe in God. I'd rather have universal internet.

[Nessus]

I doubt this will have a serious impact on voting behaviour.

[EyeKhan]

Can you vote over the internet in Finland?

[Nessus]

Not yet!

[EyeKhan]

Voting's a right. Internet's a right. Soon!

[Nessus]

I don't see why, but sure

[Dreadnaught]

By the usage requirements of the people being provided subsidized broadband connections compared to the costs of providing it coupled with whether or not that money could provide larger improvements elsewhere?

It may depend on what your basic attitude is:

a. The internet is a luxury

b. The internet is an integral part of western societies

I think it's both a luxury and an important service in society. But I also think that, unless this is going to be a free, taxed utility like roads, this is something that should be delivered by the private sector.

[Aimless]

Hasn't the reliance on the private sector in this matter rewarded the US with expensive and summat shoddy broadband with patchy coverage??

[Dreadnaught]

Well everything is going to be expensive compared to a subsidized service.

[Aimless]

Well everything is going to be expensive compared to a subsidized service.

This is true, I'm just trying to figure out why us Europeans have also had better DSL coverage than the US, nevermind the subsidised fibre-cables.

I also wonder how long it takes for a company in the US to recoup the costs of laying down fibre, nevermind the already-existing phone-lines

[Aimless]

Just so we don't get into a pissing-contest: I'm wondering why telecom/IT in the US differs so much from eg. Sweden, or Finland. It's not as if everything here is subsidised. Does it have something to do with low population density? Companies that have had relative monopolies in various areas??

Yes, but we have enormous highways in some places that don't go anywhere productive and sit there nearly empty most of the time. I hesitate on the "if you build it, they will come" mentality of this. Building a new fiber-optic trunk to Utica, NY isn't going to save the economy of Utica, NY because it's still generally a terrible place to do business.

Well yeah, I dunno about the rationale behind those roads, just as I dunno much about the rationale (in the US) behind expanding your broadband infrastructure. I gotta say, though, your broadband strikes me as a safer bet than your roads. I get that Americans have had a thing for travelling everywhere by car, but...!

Re. Utica, tbh, I have no idea if it'd save the economy of that community. If that's the purpose of getting Utica wired, then maybe it's misguided (although I certainly have no data on the results of wiring up a community like that). I'm more on the "keep Utica connected to the world, reduce the digital divide, plan ahead" line. But it would certainly give Uticans access to more online movies and make someone more money somewhere.

[Wraith]

This is true, I'm just trying to figure out why us Europeans have also had better DSL coverage than the US, nevermind the subsidised fibre-cables.

Because the US mostly goes with cable, although there is a shift to fiber-optic to-the-door happening. It's the nature of the technologies: for geographical reasons, DSL isn't as viable in the US as it is in Europe. DSL speeds degrade with distance from the station. Cable performance degrades with number of people on the node. The US has a lower population density on average, which means fewer people per node, and more average distance from stations. Cable is just a better technology for that situation. The reverse is true in Europe, where DSL is a better technology for that situation.

[Khendraja'aro]

Because the US mostly goes with cable, although there is a shift to fiber-optic to-the-door happening. It's the nature of the technologies: for geographical reasons, DSL isn't as viable in the US as it is in Europe. DSL speeds degrade with distance from the station. Cable performance degrades with number of people on the node. The US has a lower population density on average, which means fewer people per node, and more average distance from stations. Cable is just a better technology for that situation. The reverse is true in Europe, where DSL is a better technology for that situation.

Well, Germany's eastern residents were in a weird position for a few years after the fall of the Berlin Wall: The Telekom decided to go all out in Eastern Germany and used FiOS to replace the telecommunication grid everywhere. Problem was: Neither the existing ISDN technology nor DSL were compatible with FiOS, which made it very difficult to get any kind of broadband connection in Eastern Germany.

[EyeKhan]

I don't see why, but sure

Just one more way to avoid talking to other people.

Hasn't the reliance on the private sector in this matter rewarded the US with expensive and summat shoddy broadband with patchy coverage??

Yes sir! GW's administration thought the Market would be best for this job and so didn't put any incentives out there and well, here we are. Yah!

[Nessus]

Just one more way to avoid talking to other people.

The culture takes care of that.

[EyeKhan]

The culture takes care of that.

Not very gregarious?

[Nessus]

I'll give you two guesses

[EyeKhan]

I'll give you two guesses

#1. Yes. #2. No.

Despite your teutonic mental challenges, you seem gregarious enough. I can't think of anything more gregarious than an orgy.

[Nessus]

I'm very picky about people from the get-go, but after that it's a different ball game. Gag. Hmm. Well, anyway.

[EyeKhan]

First impression is everything.

[Illusions]

First impression is everything.

We have this thing called PM's or Private Messages, for those times when something you wish to discuss is only applicable to one other person besides yourself, and has little relevance to the topic of a thread. Its a pretty awesome feature as it allows threads to mainly contain posts relevant to a certain topic, while still allowing you to discuss on the side whatever other thing you want with certain forum members.

[EyeKhan]

Here we go again....

[Illusions]

Here we go again....

This marvelous feature can be accessed here: Private Messaging

[Khendraja'aro]

We have this thing called PM's or Private Messages, for those times when something you wish to discuss is only applicable to one other person besides yourself, and has little relevance to the topic of a thread. Its a pretty awesome feature as it allows threads to mainly contain posts relevant to a certain topic, while still allowing you to discuss on the side whatever other thing you want with certain forum members.

Who went and made you the Kindergarten Cop around here?