Really?Originally Posted by RandBlade
Probably has nothing to do with the left-wing crowd preferring to blame the GOP than admit that their precious government doesn't actually protect the poor and downtrodden like they claim, and is in fact another boot on everyone's back.
"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
-- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.
This case is on its way toward being a federal hate crime, based on Zimmerman's "utterings" to 911. He didn't use the racial slur YOU used. He reportedly said "those fucking coons". That's not pretty, either. But the way you injected another racial slur into the discussion does nothing but inflame stereotypical emotions, and turn attention to words instead of actions.
Gee he said Coons instead of Niggers? Oh well, that makes all the difference!
He was on tape saying that and they never even fucking investigated the crime. This has NOTHING to do with SYG laws and everything to do with incompetence at best and racist prejudicial negligence probably.
Actually, there's nothing there. Someone said they heard something in the background of a tape that sounded like it might be that, but it's really, really unclear and nobody of any repute is willing to say that it was said. I've been avoiding making the racist charge against Zimmerman myself because there's really no evidence.Gee he said Coons instead of Niggers? Oh well, that makes all the difference!
He was on tape saying that and they never even fucking investigated the crime. This has NOTHING to do with SYG laws and everything to do with incompetence at best and racist prejudicial negligence probably.
2:19
Clear as day.
The light that once I thought compassion still casting shadows in your action
The words you shared were cold transactions that bring me to curse what you've done
When you're up there absorbed in greatness with such success you've grown complacent
I hope you scorch your many faces when you fly too close to the sun
Yup.
"Fuckin' coons."
And that's what it's all about, from the mouth of the "man" himself.
But it's a bit ugly, so let's converse on the prettier parts of the issue instead. Like the sharp-lookin' hoodie the dead kid was wearing.
Gee he said Coons instead of Niggers? Oh well, that makes all the difference!
He was on tape saying that and they never even fucking investigated the crime. This has NOTHING to do with SYG laws and everything to do with incompetence at best and racist prejudicial negligence probably., +1
"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
-- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
best part, this is the same guy who campaigned against baggy pants
"In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."
Alright, I heard that. It may have been priming, as I think Minx is suggesting, but I couldn't get myself to hear anything else.
Absolutely, crystal clear. And not manipulated by "playing backwards" or something, its just plain and simply audible.
And well said in that video that self-defence is an "affirmative defence" that he has to demonstrate. He should have been arrested.
What's that image OG?
Priming. See Wraithy's post. He may as well have said "goons" or who knows what else. Maybe he said "coons", he looks like he's about 50
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
The concern is that the SYG law is what allowed this event to unfold as it did. The police are releasing reports and at least one witness has come forward that claims that the kid in the hoodie was seen on top of the murderer, beating the crap out of him, smashing his head into the ground. The problem is that we don't know how events turned out like that. Was the kid in the hoodie so aggressive at that point because he knew his life was in danger because of a gun? How did they get so close to start this confrontation? Thats the inherit problem, it encourages risky behavior like this because if you ever get in over your head, just pull out a gun and make up a story.
That is New York Senator Eric Adams. A politician wearing a hoodie doesn't do much to dispel the myth of only criminals using them, but the best part is that this is the same fool that campaigned against baggy pants with the line "Our youth will demonstrate that they can control their own image and the message they send to peers, authority figures, and potential employers." This is nothing more than him jumping on the bandwagon.
"In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."
Shouldn't the press display more up to date pics of the two? Not ones that are several years old.
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They got into conflict because Zimmerman stalked someone through the neighborhood and then confronted him. Even if he attempts to invoke SYG (which is far better than the alternative) Martin has first claim to that, being already a victim. And for you "run away" types, he did exactly that; look where it got him. SYG was nothing more than justification after the fact to cover for first or second degree murder.
Everyone should wait till all the info comes out.
Reports are advising that Zimmerman (5'5") was on his way back to his truck after being told by the dispatcher to stop chasing, then Martin (6'1") confronted him.
Reports are also advising that he received a broken nose, injuries to the back to head, and obvious indications that he was on his back getting pounded on.
Now I'm reserving judgement on the above and this whole thing in general as Zimmerman my have still provoked this altercation...but let's not pretend we know everything that happened yet.
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Fair enough; all reports and info I saw excluded any mention of Zimmerman going back to his truck.
Again, I don't trust ANYTHING coming out of an press release right now...cause it's more about political commentary and ratings now.
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Yes, and? One guy had a gun, the other didn't.
What exactly do you propose doing other than trying to run away in face of a gun?
Standing your ground? Oh, yeah, look where it got him.
When the stars threw down their spears
And watered heaven with their tears:
Did he smile his work to see?
Did he who made the lamb make thee?
Er... and if Zimmerman had tried to run away instead of "defending" himself?
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
papers are still reporting him as a neighborhood watch volunteer
Since we want to play with facts like this, we should also note that Zimmerman had 80lbs on the 17 year old
"In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."
He's a 17 year old, unless he's some genetic freak like mike tyson, his muscles won't be mature, he'll be much less developed and weaker than zimmerman. and he was running. Zimmerman was an idiot and the world is full of similar racist idiots. He's born and raised in some Klu Klux Klan dominated area, this kid is looking suspicious so he decided to track him down, this is the mind of somone is paranoid, and ignorant. Is a failure of his parents, his local school districts, and the society around him that should strive to put better values.
So by both statements, he's screwed. SYG at least gives people a legal leg to stand on in such a situation when defending themselves; lack of an alternative just hurts victims further.
It wouldn't have happened the way we understand. If he had left the scene has he was told to, the problem would not have existed.Er... and if Zimmerman had tried to run away instead of "defending" himself?
Wait, what!?
That's the first I've heard of this. Not to be funny, but if the kid in the hoodie was on top of Zimmerman "beating the crap out of him, smashing his head into the ground" then it is self-defence! And would be even without SYG, you can't "retreat" while somebody is on top of you beating the crap out of you. The word murderer is inappropriate in that context too.
The thing that will stop people pulling out a gun is not what type of self-defence law you have, but gun control.
Well, if you don't have a gun how else would you SYG other than beating the crap out of the offender? Just because he was on top by the time a witness showed up doesn't mean it started out that way. Why did you jump to such a one sided conclusion with such little information?
Reported for using foul language! We don't need gun control, we need bullet control. Guns don't kill people, bullets do.
Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?
And it should be mentioned that even with the SYG law, it's still an affirmative defense. (A much lower barrier to proving it, but still an affirmative defense.) With the audio of his 911 calls, I have trouble seeing how he'd be able to make that positive claim in court, particularly when his taped racial slur to a 911 operator is played in rebuttal.
The fact that Zimmerman hasn't been arrested for anything, short of the murder (like the stalking behavior, or the initial physical confrontation) tells me all I need to know about the legal situation here. Even if the reason he can't be charged with murder is SYG, there's plenty of other things he could well be charged with, and that he's not reveals this situation for the racially motivated farce it is, rather than the evil right-wing legislation a lot of people would like it to be about.
I disagree.
Stalking and confronting someone you refer to as a "fuckin' coon" is still an act of aggression, and shooting your victim after you find out he can beat your ass just makes you a stupid, weakling of a murderer. It doesn't change who aggressed against who and started the whole mess.
Provoking a physical confrontation that he was losing doesn't change anything. Zimmerman was still the aggressor, and still the person who made every escalation along the way. So, if anything, it just sounds like he's guilty of stalking and assault as well murder.
How about we not model our system of justice off of the only country in the world with "screwdriver control" laws, eh?
"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
-- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.
We don't yet have a clear picture of why the teenager was on top. Did he react with fight mode when a gun was flashed? You don't exactly let up if the other guy is holding a gun you can't knock away. Even without that information, Zimmerman was the aggressor here, following and possibly confronting the teen when told not to.
But thats the problem I've been trying to address with SYG laws, it encourages action over thinking, Zimmerman was (possibly) allowed to push this kid until he fought back, and then it became "self-defense".
"In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."
I agree on the first part but I am bit dubious on the second part, you see If I am on my back and my head is being smashed in to the concrete below me, no matter how guilty I am of provoking this situation, if I can shoot the the guy I will do it. I think everyone has watched 1 too many movies and forgets just how fragile the human body is and pounding someones had head on the asphalt is quickly just as lethal as a bullet. I for one am quite surprised the guy was still able to pull out a gun and shoot after having his head smashed even once into the pave-walk let alone as it is being "pounded", this is not counterstrike when after taking a few rounds in the legs your target hopes does a spin round and nails you in the head. Which leads too what Omnious said we as a public know little about this case beyond some clear indications that Zimmermans behavior prior to conflict was inappropriate.Stalking and confronting someone you refer to as a "fuckin' coon" is still an act of aggression, and shooting your victim after you find out he can beat your ass just makes you a stupid, weakling of a murderer. It doesn't change who aggressed against who and started the whole mess..
No, SYG is irrelevant here. Even under UK law, I would argue if someone is over you, beating you up and pounding your head etc then it is self-defence. SYG merely removes the obligation to retreat right? But in that scenario retreat is not a possibility. Thereforeno change. Any self-defence law would have this issue.
Either way though, it still remains an affirmative defence. None of this excuses the PD.
It should be noted that the injuries from these "poundings" and "smashings" were not enough to warrant immediate medical attention, and again we have no idea when "enough force" would have been appropriate because of the presence of a weapon. For all we know, this was the underweight teens defense against a man who was stalking him with a gun. Another previous point against SYG, its winner take all, because if the teen had managed to win this confrontation, he would qualify for the same defense.
Last edited by Ominous Gamer; 03-28-2012 at 03:36 PM.
"In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."
I refrained from pointing this out, but, y'know, the plural of "anecdote" is not "statistic".
Armed with that knowledge, maybe you could take the time to go back and actually read what I wrote. Maybe you'll be enlightened as to why your argument is kind of a strawman.
When the stars threw down their spears
And watered heaven with their tears:
Did he smile his work to see?
Did he who made the lamb make thee?
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