I'm not a bigot.
I'm not a bigot.
Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer
At least you didn't try the "I'm not a bigot but..." or the classic "I'm not a bigot, I have friends which are...!"
Then again, your utterings here are pretty damning evidence. You can tell yourself all day long what you aren't. Doesn't change reality. We also have seen that you're quite capable of massive horseblinders to any uncomfortable truths about yourself or the things you believe in.
When the stars threw down their spears
And watered heaven with their tears:
Did he smile his work to see?
Did he who made the lamb make thee?
There is nothing bigoted about what I said. I repeat: would it be bigoted to be concerned if a group of skinheads with swastika tattoos came in?
Would it be bigoted to treat the skinhead swastika tattooed group same as anyone else except being slightly more alert to the risks they pose?
You really don't see the difference between a group you're born into and a group you're voluntarily belonging to.
Check passed for bigotry. Congratulations.
When the stars threw down their spears
And watered heaven with their tears:
Did he smile his work to see?
Did he who made the lamb make thee?
People aren't born into swastika skinhead communities?
I'm not talking about people who were brought up in a community but have left it. I'm talking active members of that community.
Accents unlike tattoos change. Ex gypsies won't have the same accent as current gypsies.
Anyway it seems that you're conceding that there are times its rational to be concerned based on snap judgements but you're just disagreeing when that is.
"Chavs" and "skinheads" aren't races. Though one can still show prejudice and bigotry which is the exact same ill that makes racism problematic. The Irish Travellers. . . might be. They're certainly on their way toward being a distinct ethnic and cultural identity. Regardless, you did not say Irish Traveller, or even the pejorative "gypsy" at the time I said those words, you just said "strong Irish accent." Seeing as strong Irish accents aren't limited to Travellers but can be found among all kinds of Irish, it certainly does apply.
Oh, but you did. "Strong" in an accent context refers to how clear and apparent the accent is in the speech, it does absolutely nothing to indicate which variant of the accent it is. You may have meant something else but were prevented from saying it by your numerous evidence deficiencies with the English language. No way for me to tell, since I can only go by what you did actually say. Which was racist.Note that I didn't simply say Irish accent, I can tell the difference.
I didn't skip past them, I quoted them. And I interpreted them correctly by their usage too.As for my line that you've quoted you seem to be skipping past two key words: slightly and strong.
Yes. One might argue that getting a tattoo is an action taken, of course. Having an accent, however, comes with being raised in an environment and is not a behavioral choice. While accents may be gotten rid of (as can tattoos) it's not easy and it can take quite a bit of time, and there is frankly not much reason to do so other than to avoid. . . well jackasses like you being prejudiced bigots.So its invalid to ever be concerned prior to actions being taken? So if skinheads with swastika tattoos on their foreheads had come in I would not be able to be concerned?
Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"
Yes I did say gypsy, or more specifically 'gypsies'. I said "I will act slightly differently I'm dealing with someone with a strong Irish accent or a chavvy Brit due to my experiences with gypsies and chavs." The only issue with that sentence is as a typo I'm missing the word 'if' in the middle of it. I certainly did include the word gypsies.
It was not racist and no strong does not just mean how clear the accent is. It has a specific meaning I was intending: https://www.phrasemix.com/phrases/a-strong-accentOh, but you did. "Strong" in an accent context refers to how clear and apparent the accent is in the speech, it does absolutely nothing to indicate which variant of the accent it is. You may have meant something else but were prevented from saying it by your numerous evidence deficiencies with the English language. No way for me to tell, since I can only go by what you did actually say. Which was racist.
I specifically did not mean a standard Irish accent which is why I used the modifier strong in its standard definition in that context.a strong accent
Use "strong" to describe an accent that's very different from the standard way of speaking.
The opposite of a "strong" accent is a "slight" accent.
Except you didn't. Please provide any source for how a standard Irish accent would be a strong one. Besides the fact the meaning should be clear from the context let alone the fact I used the phrase accurately.I didn't skip past them, I quoted them. And I interpreted them correctly by their usage too.
Accents change naturally not just deliberately.Yes. One might argue that getting a tattoo is an action taken, of course. Having an accent, however, comes with being raised in an environment and is not a behavioral choice. While accents may be gotten rid of (as can tattoos) it's not easy and it can take quite a bit of time, and there is frankly not much reason to do so other than to avoid. . . well jackasses like you being prejudiced bigots.
Incidentally although its the 21st century and it can't be taken for granted, one group characteristic that is even more associated with whether you had it from birth or not than your accent is the characteristic of whether or not you have a penis. While many people's accents will evolve during their lifetime, very few people will evolve from male to female or vice-versa. Your gender is a group you were "born into".
I know many women who will act "slightly" differently around men they don't know than around women they don't know. In fact I would suggest the vast majority of women I know will act slightly differently around strange men than around strange women in the right circumstances.
If a woman walking alone in the dark is made "slightly" more "alert" or "on guard" because of a strange man approaching her than because of a woman doing so then is she a "prejudiced bigot"? Should she have "inkling of understanding for how awful of a person [she] truly [is...I mean seriously, wtf."? Is she "a terrible human being"? Is it 'bizarre sexism'?
Is she "causing a vicious circle"?
Nice. So you're equating "gypsies" with Nazis now. Btw, they'd like to be called Roma. And before you're protesting that you were just making an unrelated comparison: If your first choice of group you're comparing another group to is the fucking Nazis (unless they're actual Nazis) then there's either something wrong with the comparison. Or with you. Or both.
I vote for both.
Also, what exactly is an "active member"? What is that supposed to be? Or an "ex member"?
Lastly: Stop digging.
When the stars threw down their spears
And watered heaven with their tears:
Did he smile his work to see?
Did he who made the lamb make thee?
Why do Irish gypsies want to be called Roma?
Ah, mistook them for the European version. They want to be called "Minkiers or Pavees, or in Irish as an Lucht Siúil ("the traveling people")."
That's another problem with the word "gypsy".
When the stars threw down their spears
And watered heaven with their tears:
Did he smile his work to see?
Did he who made the lamb make thee?
You've edited your previous post, the first group I compared gypsies to was not the Nazis, it was chavs.
And? Are they actually comparable to fucking Nazis?
When the stars threw down their spears
And watered heaven with their tears:
Did he smile his work to see?
Did he who made the lamb make thee?
And "gypsy" is a pejorative word mostly for referring to Roma. Even as a pejorative it isn't an accurate word for referring to those groups of itinerant Irish. You bigoted jackass.
And you continue not understanding your own language. "Standard way of speaking" is unaccented (i.e. the "standard" or native accent of the locale). Regardless, "strong Irish accent" certainly doesn't mean "Traveller."It was not racist and no strong does not just mean how clear the accent is. It has a specific meaning I was intending: https://www.phrasemix.com/phrases/a-strong-accent
Hey Steely, Timbuk, are "gypsies" what you think of when you hear the phrase "strong Irish accent"? Or is that just Rand's racist crap?
And yet that's not what you actually wrote.I specifically did not mean a standard Irish accent
They can change naturally, but that doesn't mean they will, and it CERTAINLY takes an extended period of time, particularly if it's natural and not deliberate.Accents change naturally not just deliberately.
Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"
I'm also waiting for his answer on what he'd consider to be an "ex member" of that group. Or how he'd actually recognize them to be an "ex member".
When the stars threw down their spears
And watered heaven with their tears:
Did he smile his work to see?
Did he who made the lamb make thee?
Arguable. Your sex is something you were born into, your gender is. . . a rather amorphous social construct which gets hooked onto biological sex identity. It's actually pretty much nonexistent at birth and is fluid growing up and in adulthood, altering in greater and lesser degrees to meet specific contexts over the course of even a single day.
Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"
I never said they were, I only reached for that extreme analogy after I had been lambasted for being a terrible person for ever judging a group as being higher risk, so I changed the analogy to an extreme group I knew you would react to. Reductio ad absurdum
If you don't like that analogy, then what about the more recent analogy of men in general? Is a woman a terrible person if she's more alert around men than women?
PS more people than you'd like to imagine are terrible people. About a decade ago I used to work in a store on a shopping centre. One day one of car parks had a load of caravans park on it and the Centre Management sent a warning letter around to all of the stores warning about the caravans. Later that day some Travellers if you prefer that word came in and tried to scam us. Was the Centre Management racist to have warned us about the arrival of the Travellers prior to them trying to scam us that same day?
Not in my country its not. It is an accurate word here. Gypsy is used both on cultural shows on television and as an official legal term to refer to Irish Travellers by both British and devolved government documentation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Fat_Gypsy_Weddings
http://gov.wales/topics/people-and-c...17-18/?lang=en
https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...gypsysites.pdf
http://webarchive.nationalarchives.g...l?format=print
If I was wanting to be offensive I would use the pejorative "Pikey" - I don't use that word.
Apologise at your own leisure for your ignorance.
Nobody has no accent. In England the accent varies dramatically from one town to another let alone one nation to another, so the idea of no accent is non-existent. Many cities have nicknames for the accent associated with them: Brummy (Birmingham), Scouse (Liverpool), Geordie (Newcastle) etcAnd you continue not understanding your own language. "Standard way of speaking" is unaccented (i.e. the "standard" or native accent of the locale). Regardless, "strong Irish accent" certainly doesn't mean "Traveller."
I have a friend who flips between a soft Geordie accent (when talking to us) and a strong Geordie accent (when talking to family). When he's in strong Geordie mode it's like listening to somebody in a different language. That's what gypsies are like even when talking to others, whereas all other Irish people I know speak with a softer dialect.
Doesn't take that long for an accent to soften.They can change naturally, but that doesn't mean they will, and it CERTAINLY takes an extended period of time, particularly if it's natural and not deliberate.
"The Pikey" (Snatch) - an amusing exaggerated stereotype with subtitles.
Most white British men are racists and likely to sexually assault women, beware. There is also a strong correlation between supporting Brexit and being a racist xenophobe and hater of Muslims.
Facts don't lie.
The stories described are also representative of the experiences of Roma here in Sweden, both natives and migrants. Recently, there was a scandal where it was discovered that cops in one region of Sweden maintained very large poorly secured database of Swedish Roma citizens (including children) "just in case" (as in, just in case it may be helpful one day during the investigation of a crime). Roma people are regularly followed around by staff when they enter stores, "just in case". Roma, esp. migrants, are regularly subjected to all forms of abuse by natives, ranging from verbal abuse, through minor attacks like spitting all the way to physical abuse. Many of them are still excluded from most parts of regular society and met with suspicion--at best--whenever they attempt to participate in broader society. I cannot even begin to explain how little I care about the bigotry of shopkeepers in light of the suffering many children and adults in these communities experience throughout their lives, often due to the prejudice of members of the majority population.
Btw, Irish Travellers are recognised as an ethnic group for the purposes of the Race Relations Act (1976) (later superseded by the the Equality Act), identified as having a shared culture, language and beliefs.
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/la...iscrimination/
So it kinda is racism.
He considers them to be the equivalent of "chavs", neo-Nazi skinheads or members of antisocial criminal gangs. Of course, in reality, Travellers are an increasingly distinct ethnic group with a distinct culture, cultural heritage, language, etc. Within that group you may find the equivalent of "chavs" and neo-Nazi skinheads and antisocial criminal gangsters. Many British racists believe that criminality and other forms of antisocial behavior is integral to the Travellers' culture, which is interesting because a more integral part of their culture seems to be the shared experiences of being subjected to racism from "wary" racists who view them as probable criminals.
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
Keep blaming the victims rather than the real criminals. She deserved it.
See, if you really cared about these things, and if your beliefs were rational, you would not even serve alcohol in your pub, and certainly not to men.
That said, your comment does not address any of the legitimate arguments you've been presented with in this thread, neither wrt the issue of racism in US policing (see previous post with summaries of studies and links to references that collectively show that racism is a significant problem in policing) nor wrt the issue of prejudice (see Loki's objection to your ecological fallacy, my objection to your philosophy of being "on guard", Hazir's post about instinct vs. judgement, Fuzzy's posts about the bigotry inherent in your original account of your recent experience, the arguments about Travellers being regarded as an ethnic group, etc). I understand that you have a deep and abiding love for English Rules Football, but can we please stop moving the goalposts at least until you've caught up with the discussion?
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
Rand, I still don't know what you consider an "ex member". How do you define that?
When the stars threw down their spears
And watered heaven with their tears:
Did he smile his work to see?
Did he who made the lamb make thee?
Maybe you should call them that to their face. That is the proper way to gauge whether a term is appropriate or not.
I don't care what your government calls them - after all, they don't have the greatest of track records when it comes to avoiding bigotry.
When the stars threw down their spears
And watered heaven with their tears:
Did he smile his work to see?
Did he who made the lamb make thee?
Why? Did you miss the fact I said I wouldn't cut someone off until they cross the line? That this whole side discussion I've only discussed being alert and not acting out.
I have addressed that repeatedly. I said that it needs to be addressed. I have to the best of my knowledge been responding to all the others too though it's hard to keep track when everyone is jumping on you.That said, your comment does not address any of the legitimate arguments you've been presented with in this thread, neither wrt the issue of racism in US policing (see previous post with summaries of studies and links to references that collectively show that racism is a significant problem in policing)
Rand's personal flaws aside, I really don't see how supporting state-sanctioned violence and discrimination against an entire race because that race is disproportionately likely to commit certain kinds of crimes is anything but racism, an attitude that HAS a material impact when held by enough people.
Hope is the denial of reality
Yes, weird that everyone is jumping on you.
When the stars threw down their spears
And watered heaven with their tears:
Did he smile his work to see?
Did he who made the lamb make thee?
I have done.I would not have used pikey, but gypsy is what they call themselves.
Dudes and esp. drunk dudes are far more likely to engage in violence and sexual harrassment or even assault compared to sober women. You should be wary, you should view them with great suspicion--or, if you care that much about the safety of your "female staff", bar drinking and dudes from your bar outright.
As far as I can tell, you have, by turns, attempted to minimize the problem (few bad apples, not very common, nowhere near as bad as what police are subjected to) or claim, in various ways, that the blatant racial disparities are justified (black people are more violent, black people are more likely to be criminals, cops are more at risk from black people, etc). If you have acknowledged that racial disparities are common and persist even when you take plausible alternative explanations into account, you have not done so very clearly, which is why you have been presented with the same arguments over and over again.I have addressed that repeatedly. I said that it needs to be addressed.
More likely you believe that your posts about guns constituted an acknowledgement of the fact that there are great unjustified racial disparities in the US justice system, esp. in police interventions.
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
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