World Cup 2010

**Steely Glint** · 06-14-2010, 10:49 PM

Yes, and I think we'd all concede that if you had to pick single team to represent Earth at the Galactic Cup, there would be more people in it from Foreign than from England, possibly only one or two Englishmen, which speaks volumns about how the entire rest of the world produces more top quality footballers than England does, a fact which of course brings deep shame to all Englishmen.

Happily, we don't have to play the Foreign team, as the quaint and amusing foreigners have divided themselves into over 180 of what they call 'countries'.

**Crowheart** · 06-14-2010, 10:57 PM

Originally Posted by Loki

The league might be marginally better, but the players might want to have more success in Europe or simply to get higher wages. Are you honestly telling me that all English players prefer playing in England? Why don't AC Milan, Inter Milan, Real Madrid, and Barcelona have a single English starter?

Actually, yes, I would think that not only all English players, but most players in the world would prefer to play in England, specifically in the Premier League.
Which would back up why those very good clubs you name don't have English starters...if they are good enough to start for those teams, then they are probably good enough to play in the Premier League at home.
It seems clear which way they are choosing, because there are many excellent English players that could start for any of those clubs.

**Spawnie** · 06-14-2010, 11:12 PM

Originally Posted by Loki

That doesn't change the fact that most of the top players in the Premiership aren't English. So you can't claim that just because the Premiership is an excellent league, England has the best (or anything near it) players. The reality is that if you look at the top players in the world, far more of them come from Argentina, Brazil, and Spain than from England. There's a reason why those three countries consistently do well in international tournaments.

Oh. Was that your point? That argentina, brazil and spain have better football players than england? Impressive.

Also, youre right, the rest of the world combined can field a better team than england. Well done.

Of course, these things arent temporary and transitory. And a significant part of the england team wouldnt be snapped up by any of the other "best" teams in the world. Oh wait, the current team has less "great" players than were considered great 4 years ago, but even now, any team in the world would take rooney, gerrard, lampard, cole, terry, ferdinand and barry, and most would take the rest (example the first being an old, out of shape beckham still playing for A.C Milan, and playing better than most of their regular team in this years champs league against Man U).

But yeah, England does only produce shit players and really, we might as well give up now. Never mind the thing you love best: free markets. In good countries, it is more worthwhile to get a degree than to pursue sport. In shit ones like spain, brazil and argentina, there is a solid chance that, should you be even moderately successful, you can make umpteen times what you would at a normal job by playing football, therefore more people do.

I believe there is an analogy between the US and the Dominican Republic in baseball. Is there some kid of unlikely racial bias that only favours (or punishes, in your theory) people from a certain island, or is it that economic factors lead more people to commit and follow with their entire hearts a path in poorer countries than in richer ones?

**Steely Glint** · 06-14-2010, 11:40 PM

LOKI YOU HAVE GOT MY ARGUING ABOUT GODDAMN FOOTBALL

I WILL KILL YOU

**Ziggy Stardust** · 06-15-2010, 07:20 AM

Originally Posted by earthJoker

Culture my ass. This is just destroying the ambiance totally:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100614/...cester130610_4

Totally agreed. Tonight Brazil's game without the usual feverish Brazil drums. No England fans chanting. No music from the argentinians. Just one constant BWaaaaaaahhhhH!

Dutch tv turned down the sound from the match because viewers complained. So, now there's just a soft drone in the background.

**earthJoker** · 06-15-2010, 08:17 AM

The Swiss channel had to do the same, the Germans did it first, so people switched over to German channels. I watch all but the German games on the German TV anyway.

BTW this 'culture' is only ~7 years old in SA.

**Lor** · 06-15-2010, 12:37 PM

I've been watching some of todays Kiwi v Slovakia match. Dear god, the Kiwi's are bad

.... headless chickens spring to mind.

Also, whats with the political/free market bollocks starting to appear in this thread?

It's ruining the vibe!

**Spawnie** · 06-15-2010, 12:56 PM

Its Lokis fault

He started it.

**Loki** · 06-15-2010, 01:10 PM

I forgot how blindly nationalistic you Brits get about this kind of thing.

**Timbuk2** · 06-15-2010, 01:28 PM

Pfff. Nationalistic my hairy arse.

**Ziggy Stardust** · 06-15-2010, 01:32 PM

Are those the Danes from the match yesterday? I seem to remember less of them.

**Timbuk2** · 06-15-2010, 01:33 PM

Danes? Where?

**Ziggy Stardust** · 06-15-2010, 01:36 PM

Never mind me

**Timbuk2** · 06-15-2010, 01:39 PM

Are we confusing the Danish flag with the English one? Hm? Are we? Hm?

**Steely Glint** · 06-15-2010, 02:18 PM

Originally Posted by Loki

I forgot how blindly nationalistic you Brits get about this kind of thing.

Oh, grow up. You lost the argument, you were *wrong*. Just admit it or keep silent.

**Loki** · 06-15-2010, 02:19 PM

Perhaps you can submit a semi-decent rebuttal (of what I actually said, instead of repeatedly attacking strawmen) before resorting to nationalistic gibberish? My argument is not that there aren't any good English players, but rather that, for the most part, England lacks elite players, which is obvious in the Premiership and even more in the other major leagues.

**Spawnie** · 06-15-2010, 02:21 PM

"Im Loki, i can dish it out but i cant take it in return, wah wah wah"

**Loki** · 06-15-2010, 02:25 PM

Your entire argument consisted of saying that Beckham (who, coincidentally is not playing for England now) managed to become a reserve at AC Milan. Congratulations.

**Aimless** · 06-15-2010, 02:31 PM

I'm confused as to why we're rambling on about elite players and about the relative awesomeness of the premier league. If there's one thing I've learned from the World Cup it's that your country doesn't need to have tons of superstars in order to do well. England's problem isn't that the team lacks elite players, England's problem is that the team often plays poorly in the world cup for some reason, which brings us right back to square one.

**Loki** · 06-15-2010, 02:33 PM

Originally Posted by Aimless

I'm confused as to why we're rambling on about elite players and about the relative awesomeness of the premier league. If there's one thing I've learned from the World Cup it's that your country doesn't need to have tons of superstars in order to do well. England's problem isn't that the team lacks elite players, England's problem is that the team often plays poorly in the world cup for some reason, which brings us right back to square one.

How about just using Occam's razor? Instead of wondering why England underperforms every single time, perhaps one can reach the easy conclusion that English players just aren't as good as the English think they are.

**Timbuk2** · 06-15-2010, 02:37 PM

Well, if FIFA are the authority to go by:

England has never had a Player of the Year Award, since the award began in 1991. List is as follows:

As ranked by nationality for 1st, 2nd and 3rd places, England comes 9th:

Source

**Ziggy Stardust** · 06-15-2010, 02:39 PM

Originally Posted by Loki

How about just using Occam's razor? Instead of wondering why England underperforms every single time, perhaps one can reach the easy conclusion that English players just aren't as good as the English think they are.

That's using Occam's razor to cut away all the factors you don't like. Not sure that tool was intended to be used like that.

One word: teamwork. It has been shown frequently to be more important than star players.

**Aimless** · 06-15-2010, 02:39 PM

Originally Posted by Loki

How about just using Occam's razor? Instead of wondering why England underperforms every single time, perhaps one can reach the easy conclusion that English players just aren't as good as the English think they are.

Because there's as much reason to go with answers such as:

- English players just don't play well with each other in international tournaments

- The English team doesn't play the right kind of football for the world cup

- They just don't try hard enough

- ...

I invite you to consider South Korea, Australia, Turkey, the USA, etc in the last few world cups.

**Loki** · 06-15-2010, 02:40 PM

Probably not a coincidence that England is ranked 8th in the world right now.

I think it's rather arrogant for Englishmen to continuously assume that the reason their teams fail is because of some mysterious factors and not simply the quality of English players.

Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust

That's using Occam's razor to cut away all the factors you don't like. Not sure that tool was intended to be used like that.

One word: teamwork. It has been shown frequently to be more important than star players.

So England consistently has bad teamwork, regardless of who coaches the team and who the players are? Seriously? You think that's a reasonable explanation?

Originally Posted by Aimless

I invite you to consider South Korea, Australia, Turkey, the USA, etc in the last few world cups.

Luck matters in soccer, so it's not surprising that you'll have an occasional upset (especially when you're the home team). This is particularly true of teams that play a stifling defense, as scoring once can assure them victory, even if they don't have elite talent. You get the same in hockey; mediocre teams play the trap and rely on turnovers for their goals, which has led to some major upsets in the past. This hardly explains why a team would consistently fair poorly, however.

**Aimless** · 06-15-2010, 02:44 PM

Originally Posted by Loki

Probably not a coincidence that England is ranked 8th in the world right now.

I think it's rather arrogant for Englishmen to continuously assume that the reason their teams fail is because of some mysterious factors and not simply the quality of English players.

So England consistently has bad teamwork, regardless of who coaches the team and who the players are? Seriously? You think that's a reasonable explanation?

It is to anyone who's seen them play

and when their teamwork is good they fail to take advantage of it by playing more aggressively.

It's probably cultural.

**Loki** · 06-15-2010, 02:46 PM

Originally Posted by Aimless

It is to anyone who's seen them play

and when their teamwork is good they fail to take advantage of it by playing more aggressively.

It's probably cultural.

Anyone who relies on cultural explanations needs to be shot. Seriously. It's the worst ad hoc explanation ever devised.

**Aimless** · 06-15-2010, 02:47 PM

It's why South Koreans crashed airplanes.

**Spawnie** · 06-15-2010, 02:51 PM

Originally Posted by Loki

Your entire argument consisted of saying that Beckham (who, coincidentally is not playing for England now) managed to become a reserve at AC Milan. Congratulations.

No it didnt. That was an example supporting a minor side point, stupid cat.

Obviously your knowledge of football is only equalled by your ability to have a discussion without being a massive goatfucker.

**Loki** · 06-15-2010, 02:52 PM

Do you want to explain away the data provided by Timbuk and myself?

**Steely Glint** · 06-15-2010, 02:55 PM

Originally Posted by Loki

Perhaps you can submit a semi-decent rebuttal (of what I actually said, instead of repeatedly attacking strawmen) before resorting to nationalistic gibberish? My argument is not that there aren't any good English players, but rather that, for the most part, England lacks elite players, which is obvious in the Premiership and even more in the other major leagues.

The problem, Loki, is that your argument isn't actually supported by any of the evidence you've put forward, and ignoring posts that point this out won't make this fact go away, and calling the posters who point this out "nationalistic" won't make your argument any less flawed. FFS, I don't even care about this topic that much, but your blatant dishonesty is extremely insulting; you obviously have a very poor view of the intelligence of everyone else in this thread if you think we wouldn't notice the statistical slight of hand you're trying to pull on us, which is to try and sell the number of foreign players in the Primer League as evidence of the lack of native talent, when the Premier League is the most prestigious league in the world and attracts the best talent from all over the world and English players are still single most numerous group in the League and that, yes, most of the mediocre (by Premier League standards) talent will be English because there's no reason to import a mediocre foreigner but this is not evidence that England is underrepresented in the pool of elite players in the league.

For example, suppose Superclub FC has 3 English starters and 8 foreigners, you would take this as support for your argument until you look at the breakdown:

3 English
2 Italian
1 Brazilian
2 Spaniards
1 Dutchman
1 German
1 Croat

You find that England is not "underrepresented" at all. Teams like Manchester United et al are global business empires and can afford to have the pick of the best players from the whole world - that is why they only have 2 or 3 Englishmen playing.

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