Revolution in Wisconsin

[Khendraja'aro]

I wonder if it's a cultural thing? British teachers are only good for beating kids and empowering homosexual trysts between 10-year-olds?

Though it's not like Finnish teachers didn't beat kids 60 years ago, either.

Could it be the rampant Randian religion? Gee whiz!

Y'know, I sometimes wonder. These are the people who entrust their children to humans who have dedicated their lives towards educating said children. These people also expect the teachers to do a good job. They then also say that teachers are earning too much money, they have a comfy job, teachers are failures because they "can't do", they're lazy and so on and so forth.

I've yet to see a single positive comment.

Do these people treat their "underlings" also like that? Expect them to do a perfect job while piling the abuse on them? And then gripe when, wonder over wonder, the job is not perfectly done?

Here's a newsflash guys: Money can't and never won't compensate for a shitty work environment.

[GGT]

1) Legislators set up the system, so why the hubbub when they try to dismantle the gravy train?

Because of the way they're doing it (in WI), loading the bill with two separate issues. Because they've targeted teachers, and excluded other civil servants like police and fire, who also use unions to bargain. Passing a budget shouldn't include banning a negotiation process, especially not for one specific group.

Aren't you tired of paying for someone else's contribution-free health plan?

I'm tired of our messed up healthcare system, the insurance industry monopoly, rising healthcare costs, and medical bankruptcies (for individuals and/or states).

You're misrepresenting things by saying they don't contribute at all. As I understand it, WI takes a chunk of tax money designated for teacher pay, and pools it in their benefit funds. Their pay is docked (reduced) on the front end, their benefits are paid before their wages. Deductions are also taken from their individual paychecks.

2) You vastly underestimate the cost of real estate in the Hamptons.

That was a referral to the CEO who was on-the-job for one week, and walked away with millions in 'severance pay' and kept his generous retirement benefits, as part of his contract negotiations. I can't remember his name or company right now, but it was in the financial industry.

3) Most private companies don't offer defined contribution plans because they don't make sense. Our states are the last holdouts, and our tax dollars are being held hostage in this struggle.

No, they don't offer defined-benefit plans anymore (the fixed-amount pension check every month until death). I'd call 401-Ks a defined contribution plan, with both employer and employee contributing, and those are plenty.

[Dreadnaught]

Y'know, I sometimes wonder. These are the people who entrust their children to humans who have dedicated their lives towards educating said children. These people also expect the teachers to do a good job. They then also say that teachers are earning too much money, they have a comfy job, teachers are failures because they "can't do", they're lazy and so on and so forth.

I've yet to see a single positive comment.

Do these people treat their "underlings" also like that? Expect them to do a perfect job while piling the abuse on them? And then gripe when, wonder over wonder, the job is not perfectly done?

Here's a newsflash guys: Money can't and never won't compensate for a shitty work environment.

I'm not sure about the experience there (in many respects, Germany has one of the most different educational systems I've heard of), but in fact we're saying the same thing: Money can't and never won't compensate for a shitty work environment.

At the local level, the US throws obscene, budget-busting amounts of money at our educational system and we're not happy with the results. And it's becoming clear the results are partly because of a shitty work environment perpetuated by teacher's unions.

They are one of the most entrenched crony special interests out there and they are turning our schools into a bureaucracy-riddled political battlefield, instead of a competent, professional organization devoted to teaching.

Because of the way they're doing it (in WI), loading the bill with two separate issues. Because they've targeted teachers, and excluded other civil servants like police and fire, who also use unions to bargain. Passing a budget shouldn't include banning a negotiation process, especially not for one specific group.

[...]
You're misrepresenting things by saying they don't contribute at all. As I understand it, WI takes a chunk of tax money designated for teacher pay, and pools it in their benefit funds. Their pay is docked (reduced) on the front end, their benefits are paid before their wages. Deductions are also taken from their individual paychecks.

That was a referral to the CEO who was on-the-job for one week, and walked away with millions in 'severance pay' and kept his generous retirement benefits, as part of his contract negotiations. I can't remember his name or company right now, but it was in the financial industry.

No, they don't offer defined-benefit plans anymore (the fixed-amount pension check every month until death). I'd call 401-Ks a defined contribution plan, with both employer and employee contributing, and those are plenty.

Please no slice-and-dice.

1) The bill targets every public sector union except firefighters and police officers. That's not targeting a specific group, it's exempting a specific group. Like when unions got themselves exempted from requirements in the healthcare bill.

2) But are you suggesting that CEOs should start a union to collectively bargain for more money? After all, they are doing so well negotiating for themselves in the private sector. Come to think of it, why can't teacher's negotiate for themselves in the private sector like CEOs?

3) One of the remaining classes of workers who receive unrealistic, un-funded defined-benefit plans are state workers. That's my point.

[Ominous Gamer]

And it's becoming clear the results are partly because of a shitty work environment perpetuated by teacher's unions.

citation needed.

1) The bill targets every public sector union except firefighters and police officers. That's not targeting a specific group, it's exempting a specific group. Like when unions got themselves exempted from requirements in the healthcare bill.

The firefighters and police unions both know that the exemption is a farce. An attempt at "first they came for." Which is why when the police were asked to clear the capital of protests, the police union said fuck off and slept alongside the protesters.

[Being]

Synopsis of the Dread mentality: Public servants should be treated like...erm...servants. Tell them what they need and don't give them anything more than that.

I believe it was Khen who said it best, the USA is marching backward. I'll add that people like Dread are leading the pack and it is their children who will suffer for it.

[Nessus]

Y'know, I sometimes wonder. These are the people who entrust their children to humans who have dedicated their lives towards educating said children. These people also expect the teachers to do a good job. They then also say that teachers are earning too much money, they have a comfy job, teachers are failures because they "can't do", they're lazy and so on and so forth.

I've yet to see a single positive comment.

Do these people treat their "underlings" also like that? Expect them to do a perfect job while piling the abuse on them? And then gripe when, wonder over wonder, the job is not perfectly done?

Here's a newsflash guys: Money can't and never won't compensate for a shitty work environment.

It's just me, but I'd assume you'd want the best kind of people, with the best motivation and the best skills and empathy, raising your children for you 9 hours out of a day. For how many years. I mean, it's your kids for Pete's sake. Or, in the hurfa durfa Randroid language, it is the workforce of tomorrow; you don't want them to be intellectually stunted, emotionally crippled jack-holes who rape and murder, you want them to be informed decision-makers who can do whatever pebble-pushing capital expects of them. So yes, that means teachers have to be more than just information-spewing automatons. But somehow this doesn't make it through the Randroid bubble.

Of course the point will become moot in the U.S. in short order as the Pubbies are working really hard at dismantling public education. There's a social experiment that simply can't go wrong.

[Khendraja'aro]

I'm not sure about the experience there (in many respects, Germany has one of the most different educational systems I've heard of), but in fact we're saying the same thing: Money can't and never won't compensate for a shitty work environment.

At the local level, the US throws obscene, budget-busting amounts of money at our educational system and we're not happy with the results. And it's becoming clear the results are partly because of a shitty work environment perpetuated by teacher's unions.

They are one of the most entrenched crony special interests out there and they are turning our schools into a bureaucracy-riddled political battlefield, instead of a competent, professional organization devoted to teaching.

Right. So that's why they get their money taken away from them and abuse piled on them?

And you'll have to explain to me how a union contributes to the decline of the work environment when we have the actual comments right here from the likes of Rand from whom I'm still expecting an apology, by the way.

It's just me, but I'd assume you'd want the best kind of people, with the best motivation and the best skills and empathy, raising your children for you 9 hours out of a day. For how many years. I mean, it's your kids for Pete's sake. Or, in the hurfa durfa Randroid language, it is the workforce of tomorrow; you don't want them to be intellectually stunted, emotionally crippled jack-holes who rape and murder, you want them to be informed decision-makers who can do whatever pebble-pushing capital expects of them. So yes, that means teachers have to be more than just information-spewing automatons. But somehow this doesn't make it through the Randroid bubble.

Of course the point will become moot in the U.S. in short order as the Pubbies are working really hard at dismantling public education. There's a social experiment that simply can't go wrong.

Well, that's what you get when everything is about money. I mean, how do they expect to get things better when they take stuff away without giving anything in return?

I mean, contrast the two messages:
a) "Well, you'll have to take a hit in your paycheck because we don't have enough money. But we appreciate the work you're doing for us all."
b) "Well, you'll have to take a hit in your paycheck because, honestly, you're not doing a good job anyway!"

Yes, I know there are bad teachers out there - but simply lumping all teachers together and telling them that they're lazy, overpaid gits won't help anyone.

[GGT]

Please no slice-and-dice.

1) The bill targets every public sector union except firefighters and police officers. That's not targeting a specific group, it's exempting a specific group. Like when unions got themselves exempted from requirements in the healthcare bill.

They've also ignored the fund managers and administrators, the bankers and bean counters who've used 'questionable' math and accounting, the trustees over all that tax-payer money. Making predictions of solvency based on future return rates of 8-10% with presumed never-ending growth and tax revenue. Things the teachers had nothing to do with and no control over.

2) But are you suggesting that CEOs should start a union to collectively bargain for more money? After all, they are doing so well negotiating for themselves in the private sector. Come to think of it, why can't teacher's negotiate for themselves in the private sector like CEOs?

Yeah, I'm sure that's what my post said. However, large corporations and their CEOs have teams of lawyers, lobbyists and PACs to do their bidding. They also have the revolving door with that conflict of interest; legislating the financial industry, retiring with full public benefits, then working as a lobbyist or banker or CEO. Sweet deal.

3) One of the remaining classes of workers who receive unrealistic, un-funded defined-benefit plans are state workers. That's my point.

WI's state pension is 90% funded and the teachers agreed to pay more into their benefit fund. There's no need to add a ban on collective bargaining in the bill, if it's about the budget. Legislators have always had the ability and option of saying NO during negotiations---to represent the tax payers instead of special interest groups---but they didn't. Now they want to make a law to do that job for them.

[Lewkowski]

Synopsis of the Dread mentality: Public servants should be treated like...erm...servants. Tell them what they need and don't give them anything more than that.

I believe it was Khen who said it best, the USA is marching backward. I'll add that people like Dread are leading the pack and it is their children who will suffer for it.

Hey something we agree on. The United States IS moving backwards. We have had a vast increase in socialism in the past two years. Record breaking deficits under the last 4 years of Democratic legislative control. Increased government, miles of new regulations. The U.S. isn't moving backward because of Dread its moving backward due to massive leftward shift in law in the last few years.

[Dreadnaught]

Right. So that's why they get their money taken away from them and abuse piled on them?

And you'll have to explain to me how a union contributes to the decline of the work environment when we have the actual comments right here from the likes of Rand from whom I'm still expecting an apology, by the way.

Well, that's what you get when everything is about money. I mean, how do they expect to get things better when they take stuff away without giving anything in return?

I mean, contrast the two messages:
a) "Well, you'll have to take a hit in your paycheck because we don't have enough money. But we appreciate the work you're doing for us all."
b) "Well, you'll have to take a hit in your paycheck because, honestly, you're not doing a good job anyway!"

Yes, I know there are bad teachers out there - but simply lumping all teachers together and telling them that they're lazy, overpaid gits won't help anyone.

I think you misunderstand the long-term implications of what anti-union education reformers actually want in the long-term. We want to shift the teacher compensation away from this unworkable pension system and away from the insane workplace rules. The goal is a more dynamic, flexible education system in which good teachers can get paid more upfront and be rewarded for good ideas.

The tradeoff is merit pay, in exchange for ending this unmanageable system that is promising endless pensions that can't be afforded.

If you want to see how the unions are creating a bad work environment, just talk to any big-city public school teacher. Or watch a movie that came out here, Waiting for Superman. It was made by the guy who made An Inconvenient Truth (Al Gore's movie).

Personally, my animus on this issue came from dating a public school teacher for a year, hearing about the insane system she dealt with daily and going to all her work events to meet the incompetent senior teachers she worked with making $120/year on salary alone.

They've also ignored the fund managers and administrators, the bankers and bean counters who've used 'questionable' math and accounting, the trustees over all that tax-payer money. Making predictions of solvency based on future return rates of 8-10% with presumed never-ending growth and tax revenue. Things the teachers had nothing to do with and no control over.

[...]

WI's state pension is 90% funded and the teachers agreed to pay more into their benefit fund. There's no need to add a ban on collective bargaining in the bill, if it's about the budget. Legislators have always had the ability and option of saying NO during negotiations---to represent the tax payers instead of special interest groups---but they didn't. Now they want to make a law to do that job for them.

The state workers (not just teachers) elected unions to get massive state promises, with the full expectation that the states would tax endlessly to uphold these promises. And whenever anyone in state legislatures questioned this patronage system, they unleashed (or threatened to unleash) a massive campaign against dissenting legislators.

The 40-50 year experiment was flawed to begin with. Just like we let Lehman fall on its sword, we can't bail-out others who made bad choices.

Also, it's not clear whether Wisconsin's pension plans are properly funded. http://www.jsonline.com/news/education/90768644.html

[Being]

Just like we let Lehman fall on its sword...

One out of how many. Like I said in other words, disingenuous arguments are your forte.

[Dreadnaught]

So...we bailed out Lehman? You want us to bail out bankrupt union-managed pension funds?

[Khendraja'aro]

I think you misunderstand the long-term implications of what anti-union education reformers actually want in the long-term. We want to shift the teacher compensation away from this unworkable pension system and away from the insane workplace rules. The goal is a more dynamic, flexible education system in which good teachers can get paid more upfront and be rewarded for good ideas.

The tradeoff is merit pay, in exchange for ending this unmanageable system that is promising endless pensions that can't be afforded.

If you want to see how the unions are creating a bad work environment, just talk to any big-city public school teacher. Or watch a movie that came out here, Waiting for Superman. It was made by the guy who made An Inconvenient Truth (Al Gore's movie).

Personally, my animus on this issue came from dating a public school teacher for a year, hearing about the insane system she dealt with daily and going to all her work events to meet the incompetent senior teachers she worked with making $120/year on salary alone.

And here you're reducing it solely to a money issue again... and I still don't know what makes unions so bad.

And no, Dread, I'm not able to talk to a big-city teacher for the reason I'm not living in the US. And I'm not watching a movie. Either you tell us right here right now what you're talking about when you equate unions with the work environment or I'll have to tell you kindly that you don't know what you're talking about, instead being just a mindless mouthpiece who's parroting all the nice propaganda he heard at the weekly corporate overlord meetings.

[GGT]

The state workers (not just teachers) elected unions to get massive state promises, with the full expectation that the states would tax endlessly to uphold these promises. And whenever anyone in state legislatures questioned this patronage system, they unleashed (or threatened to unleash) a massive campaign against dissenting legislators.

That's a symptom of our flawed way of electing lawmakers---to the highest bidders with deep pockets---catering to special interest groups. When the elected are more worried about getting re-elected, and make decisions to avoid "massive campaigns" as dissenters, they're in there for the wrong reasons. But our system fosters that kind of behavior.

It's also hypocritical of the GOP to want to limit unions' representation of workers at the bargaining table. They call it Free [political] Speech when lobbyists or PACs do the same thing, on behalf of corporations or industries.

Even Bloomberg says: Limit pay, not unions.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/28/op...8mayor.html?hp

[Dreadnaught]

And here you're reducing it solely to a money issue again... and I still don't know what makes unions so bad.

And no, Dread, I'm not able to talk to a big-city teacher for the reason I'm not living in the US. And I'm not watching a movie. Either you tell us right here right now what you're talking about when you equate unions with the work environment or I'll have to tell you kindly that you don't know what you're talking about, instead being just a mindless mouthpiece who's parroting all the nice propaganda he heard at the weekly corporate overlord meetings.

It's not just about money, I've outlined this over and over again. Our government workers operate with virtually no accountability, no merit-based pay, the inability to fire bad employees (especially teachers), lifetime tenure, seniority-based layoffs and a rank politicization of our bureaucracies.

It goes beyond teachers. When it comes to sanitation workers, social workers and administrations, we're left with an unaffordable and ineffective government. A government that gives us very little for our money.

To make things worse, we increasingly can't make investments in infrastructure, research and other important areas because ever-larger chunks of our state government budgets go to salary and benefits for state employees. It's a corruption of government that's destroying social liberalism.

New York City's transit agency —*the largest transportation agency in the US —*spends 62% of its revenues on salary and benefits. So if you're riding a train in New York, 62% of the cost goes to the two people running the train. The remaining 40% goes to tracks, tunnels, trains, electricity and maintenance. Does that make sense to you?

[Ominous Gamer]

My pay includes a yearly merit based raise. Or at least it did, up until about 3 years ago when we stopped getting raises.
Also, and this should be obvious, a blanket statement of not being able to fire bad employees, is of course, bullshit. Even unions don't operate like the Catholic church.
Our RIF procedures do account for seniority, but also take account of our previous yearly performance scores.


but I'm still waiting for my last citation request

[Dreadnaught]

Yes, everyone gets performance scores that matter. The Soviets also had "elections".

And if I'm not mistaken, you operate under civil service rules and not a union, right? Plus I believe Florida is a right-to-work state, which massively changes the dynamic.

[Ominous Gamer]

your last post didn't mention unions at all. You instead went with some bullshit umbrella statement that government employees are unchecked wasteful and lazy workers. Hell, you're still spewing bullshit about how they operate.

that kinda changes the dynamic of the conversation.

[Dreadnaught]

I didn't say lazy. But the government has gotten wasteful and less efficient. From front page of tomorrow's papers:

POLITICS MARCH 1, 2011

Billions in Bloat Uncovered in Beltway

By DAMIAN PALETTA

The U.S. government has 15 different agencies overseeing food-safety laws, more than 20 separate programs to help the homeless and 80 programs for economic development.

These are a few of the findings in a massive study of overlapping and duplicative programs that cost taxpayers billions of dollars each year, according to the Government Accountability Office.

A report from the nonpartisan GAO, to be released Tuesday, compiles a list of redundant and potentially ineffective federal programs, and it could serve as a template for lawmakers in both parties as they move to cut federal spending and consolidate programs to reduce the deficit. Sen. Tom Coburn (R., Okla.), who pushed for the report, estimated it identifies between $100 billion and $200 billion in duplicative spending. The GAO didn't put a specific figure on the spending overlap.

The GAO examined numerous federal agencies, including the departments of defense, agriculture and housing and urban development, and pointed to instances where different arms of the government should be coordinating or consolidating efforts to save taxpayers' money.

The agency found 82 federal programs to improve teacher quality; 80 to help disadvantaged people with transportation; 47 for job training and employment; and 56 to help people understand finances, according to a draft of the report reviewed by The Wall Street Journal.

Instances of ineffective and unfocused federal programs can lead to a mishmash of occasionally arbitrary policies and rules, the report said. It recommends merging or consolidating a number of programs to both save money and make the government more efficient.

"Reducing or eliminating duplication, overlap, or fragmentation could potentially save billions of tax dollars annually and help agencies provide more efficient and effective services," the report said.

There have been multiple efforts to cull the number of federal programs in recent years, but they often run into opposition from lawmakers in both parties who rush to defend individual spending provisions. In fact, GAO's recommendations are often ignored or postponed by federal agencies and lawmakers, particularly when they could require difficult political votes.

The report says policy makers should consider creating a single food-safety agency because of a number of redundancies. The Food and Drug Administration makes sure that chicken eggs are "safe, wholesome, and properly labeled" while a division of the Department of Agriculture "is responsible for the safety of eggs processed into egg products."

Spokespeople for the Department of Agriculture and FDA pointed to the Obama administration's creation of the Food Safety Working Group, which works to better coordinate the government's regulators.

The report says there are 18 federal programs that spent a combined $62.5 billion in 2008 on food and nutrition assistance, but little is known about the effectiveness of 11 of these programs because they haven't been well studied.

The report took particular aim at government funding for surface transportation, including the building of roads and other projects, which the administration has made a major part of its push to update the country's infrastructure.

The report said five divisions within the Department of Transportation account for 100 different programs that fund things like highways, rail projects and safety programs.

One program that funnels transportation funds to the states "functions as a cash-transfer general-purpose grant program, rather than as a tool for pursuing a cohesive national transportation policy," the report said. Similarly, it chided the government over encouraging federal agencies to purchase plug-in hybrid vehicles while having policies that agencies reduce electricity consumption. It said government agencies have purchased numerous vehicles that run on alternative fuels only to find many gas stations don't sell alternative fuels. This has led government agencies to turn around and request waivers so they didn't have to use alternative fuels.

A spokesperson for the Department of Transportation said the president's budget for fiscal year 2012 "proposes to cut waste, inefficiency and bureaucracy by consolidating over 55 separate highway programs into five core programs, and by merging six transit programs into two programs."

On teacher quality, the report identified 82 programs that often have similar descriptions and goals and are spread across 10 federal agencies, including the Department of Education, the Department of Energy and the National Aeronautics and Space Administration. Nine of these programs are linked to science, technology, engineering and mathematics. Fifty-three of the programs are relatively small, receiving $50 million or less, "and many have their own separate administrative processes."

The GAO highlighted 80 different economic development programs at the Department of Commerce, HUD, Department of Agriculture and Small Business Administration, that spent a combined $6.5 billion last year and often overlapped. For example, the four agencies combined to have 52 different programs that fund "entrepreneurial efforts," 35 programs for infrastructure, and 26 programs for telecommunications. It said 60% of the programs fund only one or two activities, making them "the most likely to overlap because many of them can only fund the same limited types of activities."

The report took aim at several military programs, which could prove thorny because many lawmakers from both parties are wary to cut defense spending. It said there were 130,000 military and government medical professionals, 59 Defense Department hospitals and hundreds of clinics that could benefit from consolidating administrative, management and clinical functions.

For example, it said the government "may have developed duplicate" programs to counter improvised explosive devices, with the Marine Corps and the Army paying to develop similar "mine rollers." The Marine mine roller costs $85,000, and the Army mine roller costs $77,000 to $225,000. "Officials disagree about which system is most effective, and [the Pentagon] has not conducted comparative testing and evaluation of the two systems," the report said. The Pentagon didn't immediately respond to a request for comment.

The GAO study was required by a provision inserted by Sen. Coburn into a law that raised the federal borrowing limit last year. This report is the first produced in response to the provision.

Write to Damian Paletta at damian.paletta@wsj.com

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...399165436.html

Every large organization needs to experience some creative destruction and restructuring. Public employee unions are a roadblock to that.

And, going back to the original subject, what we are getting from government has become simply unaffordable.

[Lewkowski]

My pay includes a yearly merit based raise. Or at least it did, up until about 3 years ago when we stopped getting raises.
Also, and this should be obvious, a blanket statement of not being able to fire bad employees, is of course, bullshit. Even unions don't operate like the Catholic church.
Our RIF procedures do account for seniority, but also take account of our previous yearly performance scores.


but I'm still waiting for my last citation request

True not all unions are like the teachers unions....

Texas for example its easier to fire teachers then in NY. However in general however government workers are less likely to be fired for failing to do their job. This of course breeds laziness and poor effort. Sure some will be hard workers simply because they have a powerful work ethic. But most people don't have that virtue anymore and as such as conditioned by the work environment they are in.

[Nessus]

And, going back to the original subject, what we are getting from government has become simply unaffordable.

With such a serpent's tongue does he speak; is there no end to the shame this self-proclaimed leader of the community will lead us to? His voice and his throat, filled with lies and deceit, and for what end, I ask? An end which many a member have found repugnant and false.

I speak against you in vain, but at least there remains an honour in going against jackals such as you; it matters little how disgusting I find you given that you consider me an addled fool, shouting as a lone voice in the wilderness.

What, specifically, has become unaffordable? Show us figures, show us facts. Show that the promille of your population earning trillions of dollars could not afford Reagan's gamma lasers, or public schooling. Show it! In a culture where wealth is generated, how is it possible for government to become unaffordable?

[Dreadnaught]

Come on, is that a serious question? You live closer than I do to Greece and Ireland.

[Nessus]

And Iceland, too.

[Dreadnaught]

Indeed, so now we know that government's capacity for borrowing is not limitless.

[Nessus]

That you would so blithely turn the peril of these nations into a talking point for your agenda, I do not find surprising. I do find shameful your demeanor and your attitude. Does it strike you at all possible that U.S. interests and U.S. culture has been perforating the nations on the better side of the Iron Curtain? Do you not think the lies you spread with your malicious tongue have indeed affected the nations you speak of, their belief in whichever bubble the masters of capital espoused fueled by the self-same tunnel vision you're congratulating? Of course not. Internal matters of the EU are only testament to their failing.

[Khendraja'aro]

It's not just about money, I've outlined this over and over again. Our government workers operate with virtually no accountability, no merit-based pay, the inability to fire bad employees (especially teachers), lifetime tenure, seniority-based layoffs and a rank politicization of our bureaucracies.

It goes beyond teachers. When it comes to sanitation workers, social workers and administrations, we're left with an unaffordable and ineffective government. A government that gives us very little for our money.

To make things worse, we increasingly can't make investments in infrastructure, research and other important areas because ever-larger chunks of our state government budgets go to salary and benefits for state employees. It's a corruption of government that's destroying social liberalism.

New York City's transit agency —*the largest transportation agency in the US —*spends 62% of its revenues on salary and benefits. So if you're riding a train in New York, 62% of the cost goes to the two people running the train. The remaining 40% goes to tracks, tunnels, trains, electricity and maintenance. Does that make sense to you?

That's great. I also notice that you still did not answer my question how unions influence the work environment.

[Being]

Maybe we should do with unions what Americans want done with unions,

Majority in Poll Back Employees in Public Sector Unions

Americans oppose weakening the bargaining rights of public employee unions by a margin of nearly two to one: 60 percent to 33 percent.

Two to one. That is certainly worth taking into account.

[Lewkowski]

And there was a time when the majority of people thought blacks shouldn't vote. At one point Bush had 70% approval rating and at another he had 30% approval rating. The people can be fickle.

[RandBlade]

My pay includes a yearly merit based raise. Or at least it did, up until about 3 years ago when we stopped getting raises.
Also, and this should be obvious, a blanket statement of not being able to fire bad employees, is of course, bullshit. Even unions don't operate like the Catholic church.
Our RIF procedures do account for seniority, but also take account of our previous yearly performance scores.


but I'm still waiting for my last citation request

In the UK between the 20 years between Jan 1990 and Dec 2009 there were a grand total of 10 public school teachers dismissed for poor performance. Out of however many thousands and thousands in the country. 93% of UK children go to public schools. Countless who shouldn't be teaching are.

[Enoch the Red]

Maybe we should do with unions what Americans want done with unions,

Majority in Poll Back Employees in Public Sector Unions



Two to one. That is certainly worth taking into account.

The polling numbers there seem more than a little skewed.

From the article:

Of those surveyed, 20 percent said there was a union member in their household, and 25 percent said there was a public employee in their household.

Union membership accounts for something like 11.9% of the population and the government only employees ~19,000,000 people or 6% of the total population of the United States.

Additionally, within those two subsets there are sure to be overlaps.