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Thread: Health Care Debate

  1. #361
    Lewk--do you really think the US should rely on Free Clinics to set up basic care in sports arenas? Have you read about the thousands lining up for those? A broken hip or cancer can't be treated that way, using the ED is "free" but expensive. Voluntary safety nets aren't enough for a country with 300 million people, 80 million seniors, 15 million unemployed or underemployed.
    Between the *existing* social support systems we already had AND private charity AND an incentive to do more then earn minimum wage it was fine.

    If someone refuses to work should society give them free shelter, free food and now free health care? At what point do we say, "well your on your own."

    Do you really want to see bread lines and soup kitchens of the Depression Era? Read the news, all the churches and charities are short on funds and depleting inventory, they can't keep up with demand. But since you think voluntary contributions to charity are the way to go....send your tax refund and 10% of your income to FreeClinics.org or Salvation Army.
    Imagine if people had all the money that is sent to the wasteful government programs that are rife with corruption.

    That's the ticket, a two-tier system, haves and have nots, what a wonderful world that will be
    Money is the way we distribute scarce resources. Not everyone can have everything. In fact this health care bill will more likely cause situations like this to occur -

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33863680/


    NEW YORK - In America, you get what you pay for. Those who pay more get better service. That's the way it is in restaurants, and in health care, too.

    But imagine a restaurant with one kitchen, one chef, but two doors and two price lists. That's the model of health care that some doctors are practicing.

    In New York City, msnbc.com heard of doctors locating their practices on corners, so they can have one door where they take insurance and another door offering services for patients who pay cash up front for each procedure.

    We visited one of these clinics with two doors, to see how it works. The result is a glimpse into a two-tiered system of health care, a system that could be coming to a street corner near you.

    On Manhattan's fashionable Upper East Side, the door on 77th Street says Lenox Hill Radiology. It's a busy place, with 20 or 30 people typically waiting in chairs. It takes insurance.

    But if you walk a few steps down the block to Madison Avenue, and one block up to 78th Street, you'll walk through the door of New York Private Medical Imaging. The waiting room has only four chairs, usually empty. It takes cash, checks and credit cards. You can try to recoup some of your money later if you have insurance.

    Both doors ultimately lead to the same area of changing rooms and scanning equipment. The same technicians perform PET scans and MRIs on the same machines. The employees are warned, in a written policy, not to tell the patients about the other door.

    As Congress spars over how to fix the nation's health care system, w e've seen more doctors reject the managed care dominated by insurance companies, pushing patients to pay $1,500 to $2,000 a year for “concierge” service with more of the doctor's time and attention. At least those patients know what they're choosing.

    But another group of doctors has set up their own segregated system, taking insurance from patients who come through one door, while collecting higher fees from patients who can afford to pay up front.

    A test
    To see how it works, msnbc.com sent two reporters, Linda Carroll and Helen Popkin, for their routine mammograms on the same afternoon to document their experiences. And later we returned to interview doctors on both sides.

    The purpose: to determine if both women received the same care. And if there were any differences, were they meaningful or superficial?

    At the Lenox Hill clinic, on the insurance side, Helen waited 15 days to get an appointment. On the day of her mammogram, she stood in line at the reception desk in a crowded waiting room. An elderly patient wandered the reception area in her hospital gown, pleading for someone to help her. In the changing room, Helen's gown was the usual thin seersucker. The technician was friendly and efficient, though Helen didn't see a doctor. She went home not knowing whether she was healthy or not, and waited nine days for her results. But it was good news, a clean bill of health. Though the list price was $350, Helen's insurance paid the clinic $140 and she paid nothing, because her health insurance covers preventive care such as mammography.

    At the Private Imaging clinic — the boutique side — Linda was able to get an appointment in two days. She was greeted immediately in the private reception area. She changed into a comfy spa robe. Her technician was also friendly and efficient, then the doctor read the scan after a few minutes, reassuring her, “Your mammogram's negative. Nothing to worry about. See you next year.” Linda walked out carrying a copy of her X-rays. Linda wrote a check to the clinic for $350; if she'd had the same insurance plan as Helen, Linda's net cost would have been $210.

    How it got to be this way
    Dr. Carmel Donovan used to be on the insurance side of this setup, at Lenox Hill Radiology. Her husband and son still manage both sides. Eight years ago she put in the second door and a separate reception desk, incorporating as New York Private Medical Imaging.

    The first factor that drove her out of managed care, Donovan explains in her Irish accent, was the declining rate of insurance payments. “It costs $100 to do a mammogram, but reimbursement was down to $50. Then it went down to $29 for a chest X-ray for a child. Impossible!”

    The second factor, she said, was time — time to talk with patients and their doctors, time to read the scan with care.

    “On the managed care side, it was just — you couldn't talk to people, because you have to produce!” Donovan said.

    “You see, they see over 500 patients a day. And you have this pressure. You have to just get stuff right out. You see, it's impersonal.”

    Talking with patients allows her to explain what she found, or to reassure them that she found nothing. And she says that conversation can help her with a diagnosis. Say a child comes in with a possible fracture of an arm, but from the X-ray it's not clear.

    “So I come in, I put my hand on there, and if they jump, I know that there's a fracture.”

    She said that even the parts of her practice that appear superficial, the robe and private waiting room, contribute to better health care. She tries not to have the patients wait long, “because that's anxiety producing.”

    The rescan
    Although the actual mammogram itself seemed identical for Helen and Linda, there was one subtle difference.

    After a quick quality check on Helen's scans, on the insurance side, the technician said the pictures were sharp, and sent her on her way.

    The technician did the same with Linda, the boutique patient, and also said the scans were sharp.

    But when Linda's radiologist examined Linda's X-rays a few minutes later, she said one of them was blurry, and sent the technician back to repeat it.

    That couldn't have happened on the insurance side. By the time Helen's radiologist looked at her X-ray, days later, Helen would be long gone. If the radiologist thought one of her scans was blurry, the doctor would either have had to rely on the information at hand or call her back for another appointment.

    35 seconds
    A few minutes after Linda's mammogram on the boutique side, a radiologist, Dr. Mona Darwish, knocked and walked into the changing room.

    “Hi, I'm Dr. Darwish, how are you?” she said cheerfully. “Your mammogram's negative, OK, so nothing to worry about.”

    Linda asked a couple of questions about a previous mammogram, and the doctor reassured her again. The conversation went back and forth. They laughed together, the tension broken.

    “See you next year,” Darwish said.

    The entire conversation took 35 seconds.

    That personal contact was not available to Helen or the other patients on the insurance side.

    All Helen heard was the technician's rushed dismissal, “OK, your doctor will get the results in seven to 10 days.”

    There's more but I'm tired of copying and pasting on MSNBC's unfriendly website with stupid pictures and ads getting in the way.

    The point is that now with more people getting on the roles of health insurance, the middle class is going to have to start paying for boutique care just to maintain the same level of care they had previously.

  2. #362
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    Between the *existing* social support systems we already had AND private charity AND an incentive to do more thAn earn minimum wage it was fine.
    No, it was not fine. It was and is shameful.

    If someone refuses to work should society give them free shelter, free food and now free health care? At what point do we say, "well you're on your own."
    What about the people who want to work and are working? You ok with making sure they have a place to live, food to eat, and health care? It's just those folks who won't work no matter what that you want to exile?

    Imagine if people had all the money that is sent to the wasteful government programs that are rife with corruption.
    Ditto for the insurance and health industry. Imagine if we had that trillion dollars of annual waste back. <sigh> Wouldn't it be nice? For that matter, I'd like that trillion dollars back the US wasted in Iraq. Wouldn't you?
    Money is the way we distribute scarce resources. Not everyone can have everything. In fact this health care bill will more likely cause situations like this to occur -
    So you are advocating rationing of health care? Thank you for your honesty - most conservatives like to pretend we haven't been doing that. But by pricing people out of the system, thats exactly what we've been doing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
    Go ahead, be crucified, see if I care
    What, are you channeling Tear now?
    Last edited by EyeKhan; 03-31-2010 at 04:54 PM.
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  3. #363
    Lewk, you can't even spell properly, so it's hard to take you seriously.

    Then you post some story about mammograms and radiologists, when it's obvious you don't know the difference between a Diagnostic scan and a Screening scan. Or that radiologists are also doing guided needle biopsies under x-ray, with triage guidelines. They also don't 'give you your x-ray' to merrily walk out the door, with a film under your arm.

    Never mind that no one goes to a free-standing radiology center for an x-ray of an arm, to see if it's broken, or that good diagnosticians don't say they 'lay a hand on the arm, if they yelp it's probably broken', or that radiologists don't set fractures.

    Boutique and Concierge services also require an up-front fee, like a retainer, usually several thousands of dollars. So let's see, you can't tell the difference from routine vs dire vs emergency services; you don't know much about boutique or concierge services; you don't know much about patient records or who 'owns' films; and you think the status quo was working just fine......



  4. #364
    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    What, are you channeling Tear now?
    You apologize to Monty Python right now Mister!
    I could have had class. I could have been a contender.
    I could have been somebody. Instead of a bum
    Which is what I am

    I aim at the stars
    But sometimes I hit London

  5. #365
    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
    You apologize to Monty Python right now Mister!
    With this post, I formally apologize.
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  6. #366
    Damn, page 618 sucks.

    $250 million for programs that teach:
    that abstinence from sexual activity is the only certain way to avoid out-of-wedlock pregnancy, sexually transmitted diseases, and other associated health problems,"
    but the requirements don't stop there:
    they must also teach that sex before marriage is "likely to have harmful psychological and physical effects."
    $250 million, for programs that have been proven not to work.

    awesome

  7. #367
    A recent study showed that abstinence only programs that omit religous content do in fact work. And that is true - the only way to surely avoid STDs and pregnancy is to not have sex. Not sure about that psych stuff... one man's harmful psychological effect is another man's "glory days."
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  8. #368
    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    A recent study showed that abstinence only programs that omit religous content do in fact work.
    To what degree? Stopping sex all the way till marriage, stopping disease from spreading?
    I've found one study mentioned in the news. It follow one group of kids through 2 years of schooling, from 6th and 7th to 8th and 9th grade.
    abstinence only had a "sex failure" rate of 30%, while a class that discussed contraception had a "sex failure" of 50%. I can't find anything that shows how large this group is, but if its one school, you're looking at a difference of only a handfull of teenagers having sex.
    Now I wonder which group learned what safe sex meant

    What exactly works when you turn teenagers ignorant towards their own bodies?

  9. #369
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    To what degree? Stopping sex all the way till marriage, stopping disease from spreading, and so on?
    I don't know. I didn't get past the headline. I seem to recall it had a bigger effect than the well rounded programs that include condoms and stuff. It was pretty recent, I'm sure you can google it up.
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  10. #370
    A recent study shows that most people can't connect the dots between saliva, blood, ejaculate, mucus membranes, pregnancy, virii, bacteria, and cancers. Let alone STDs. Sex is just supposed to be FUN. Right?

  11. #371
    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    I don't know. I didn't get past the headline. I seem to recall it had a bigger effect than the well rounded programs that include condoms and stuff. It was pretty recent, I'm sure you can google it up.
    I found it, and I fixed my above post to show why you shouldn't cite studies based only on headlines

  12. #372
    "Sex failure"?

    America, nuke yourselves now

    Please
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  13. #373
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    I found it, and I fixed my above post to show why you shouldn't cite studies based only on headlines
    Hey man, I'm not interested in arguing the issue. I think abstinance only is silly. IMHO every girl should get an implanted contraceptive that works until she's 25 or better yet until she gets married and everyone should be encouraged to have as much sex as possible. Probably should work in condoms or something to fight STDS. That and regular STD screenings and treatment. Or something. I can't imagine having too much sex. Can men even do that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    "Sex failure"?

    America, nuke yourselves now

    Please
    The fallout from enough nukes to do the job right would fuck up the whole world. Not that you probably care.
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  14. #374
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Dread is taking this way too personally. He works in PR and deals with the media, but I didn't expect this reaction. What's up with that?

    I saw someone (Nessus?) post this a while ago and found it curious, but didn't address it then. I don't work in PR. I do know a ton of people who work in media.

  15. #375
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post

    What exactly works when you turn teenagers ignorant towards their own bodies?
    Wrong question. Wrong context. Aren't you an adult who found himself with more than one "unintended pregnancy"? My memory might suck, but I recall you posting about paying for more than one abortion, and now being a father of an "accidental child".

    Sorry to say, but the truly informed teens would never think a condom or pill will protect them from bad things. Read up on human papilloma virus, its vaccine, cervical cancers, and the head and neck cancers from gonorrhea or HPV. The days are gone when a simple barrier protects from disease (see Herpes complex forms, also see harbored virii, or antibiotic resistant bacteria).

    Our informed era is now about abstinence. Unless you want to sleep with everyone your lover ever slept with. Condom or not, antibiotics or not. Anal/vaginal/oral, it's all the same. Interventions after the fact can only address pregnancy, not disease proliferation. Germies are smarter than you, and don't you forget it.

  16. #376
    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    Hey man, I'm not interested in arguing the issue. I think abstinance only is silly. IMHO every girl should get an implanted contraceptive that works until she's 25 or better yet until she gets married and everyone should be encouraged to have as much sex as possible. Probably should work in condoms or something to fight STDS. That and regular STD screenings and treatment. Or something. I can't imagine having too much sex. Can men even do that?
    Right, I can just see you saying this to your daughter. Such wise counsel. And your wife agreeing.

  17. #377
    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    The fallout from enough nukes to do the job right would fuck up the whole world.
    Citation needed
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  18. #378
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    I saw someone (Nessus?) post this a while ago and found it curious,
    What? Citation needed here as well
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  19. #379
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    I saw someone (Nessus?) post this a while ago and found it curious, but didn't address it then. I don't work in PR. I do know a ton of people who work in media.
    Never mind, the Eye started a thread about the whole martyrdom crucifixion thing. I think he felt guilty about joking that you sold your soul, or something.

  20. #380
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Wrong question. Wrong context. Aren't you an adult who found himself with more than one "unintended pregnancy"? My memory might suck, but I recall you posting about paying for more than one abortion, and now being a father of an "accidental child".
    Paying, but not claiming I was at fault.
    and I do not remember calling Scarlett a mistake.

    Sorry to say, but the truly informed teens would never think a condom or pill will protect them from bad things. Read up on human papilloma virus, its vaccine, cervical cancers, and the head and neck cancers from gonorrhea or HPV. The days are gone when a simple barrier protects from disease (see Herpes complex forms, also see harbored virii, or antibiotic resistant bacteria).

    Our informed era is now about abstinence. Unless you want to sleep with everyone your lover ever slept with. Condom or not, antibiotics or not. Anal/vaginal/oral, it's all the same. Interventions after the fact can only address pregnancy, not disease proliferation. Germies are smarter than you, and don't you forget it.
    Because only having 30% of your subjects submit to sex without understanding protection (much less everything else about it) is better than having 50% of subjects fucking and understand what their doing.

  21. #381
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Paying, but not claiming I was at fault.
    and I do not remember calling Scarlett a mistake.
    Sorry then, I don't recall she being a "planned" baby. I only remember you being surprised, but like I said, my memory sucks.


    Because only having 30% of your subjects submit to sex without understanding protection (much less everything else about it) is better than having 50% of subjects fucking and understand what their doing.
    No worries Big Daddy. Just wondering what you will teach your spawn, that's all. If it feels good, do it? Take precautions if you Do It? Are the precautions the right ones, and do you trust you won't wind up with some disease in ten years anyway? Herpes took a lot of people by surprise, back in the day when type I and type II drew an imaginary line of transmission.

    Guess what, now we've got millions with genital herpes from having oral sex with "herpes simplex" people (DORMANT cold sores on their mouths). It wasn't very long ago that experts insisted that herpes could not travel between the torso line. oops?

  22. #382
    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    What? Citation needed here as well
    'Twas on AtariCC as I recall...but I shant visit that place to find the post. It may also have not been you to be honest.

    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Never mind, the Eye started a thread about the whole martyrdom crucifixion thing. I think he felt guilty about joking that you sold your soul, or something.
    Well I didn't sell it, I just rent it out from time to time.

  23. #383
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    Well I didn't sell it, I just rent it out from time to time.
    You don't need it anyway. I don't miss mine a bit.
    We're stuck in a bloody snowglobe.

  24. #384
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Take precautions if you Do It?
    Sounds about right.

    When the best study abstinence can use to defend its ignorant practice shows 30% of its subjects as failing the styling, before high school, the idea is an out and out failure. I would rather my children understand their bodies, understand what the urges are, and how to best protect themselves should the urges overpower them.

    I will not be sending my children into the adult world not understanding what a condom is.
    Last edited by Ominous Gamer; 04-01-2010 at 01:57 AM.

  25. #385
    So the difference between 30% and 50% is not significant?
    Hope is the denial of reality

  26. #386
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    So the difference between 30% and 50% is not significant?
    Not when you're considering the sample size of possibly two grades worth of students in one school, students who haven't even reached high school.

    Not when you consider that the 30% didn't know how to protect themselves, and the 50% did. Using abstinence's own health angle, which group is going to end up with more STDs and pregnancies?

  27. #387
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Not when you're considering the sample size of possibly two grades worth of students in one school, students who haven't even reached high school.

    Not when you consider that the 30% didn't know how to protect themselves, and the 50% did.
    Assuming the studies were conducted well, those results can be generalized to all students of a similar age. You'll always have people doing things they shouldn't be doing. Something that prevents an extra 2/10 from doing those things is pretty damn effective. Social policies rarely have larger effects.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  28. #388
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Assuming the studies were conducted well, those results can be generalized to all students of a similar age.
    Haven't been able to find anything to support this yet. I can't even find where they give a firm figure.

    The policy isn't preventing what they claim the program is trying to combat. 30% of the population fucking without knowledge of protection is a bad number when you compare it to 50% at least understanding how a condom works. Which group is going to end up with more STDs and pregnancies in the end tally? The high percentage of 30%, or the low percentage of 50%?

  29. #389
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Haven't been able to find anything to support this yet. I can't even find where they give a firm figure.

    The policy isn't preventing what they claim the program is trying to combat. 30% of population fucking without knowledge of protection is bad number when you compare it to 50% at least understanding how a condom works. Which group is going to end up with more STDs and pregnancies in the end tally?
    Are stats that hard to understand? According to this study, 70% engage in the desired behavior as a consequence of the policy, in contrast to 50% normally. How badly does one have to understand stats to not the see the difference between those two numbers?
    Hope is the denial of reality

  30. #390
    Stats do not matter much when you're the one who "did everything right" and still made an unplanned baby, or got an STD that can't be "cured".


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