Example of everything wrong with Student Loans

[GGT]

GGT, please invest in getting a conscience.

Huh? I was explaining to Lewk the benefit of funding public education (including gov't subsidized loans for college) since that's how we get professional teachers, doctors, scientists, researchers, etc.

Do you think they are going to be paid back in the example provided?

I actually don't see a benefit in the majority of the population getting college degrees. Folks who end up doing a huge portion of jobs have no need for a degree. If you're an engineer, doctor, nurse, architect, forensics specialist ect college is useful. We've got people getting degrees in history and 'education' (there's a crap degree) that is being paid for by student loans that in many cases won't be repaid.

And even in fields where college is useful, there is an overemphasis on spending 1-2 years on learning 'core' subjects unrelated to their speciality (something HS should have already provided a working knowledge of, oh and guess what many HS math courses are MORE ADVANCED than the college maths because so man people suck at math they have remedial classes THAT ARE STILL WORTH CREDIT).

Many students get undergrad degrees in those 'core' subjects (history, economics, math, political science, etc.) but need a Master's Degree to get the required credentials for a job in their specialty....including accredited teachers. That's just a natural extension of valuing higher education, and that being a "professional" means more than a HS diploma, and sometimes more than an undergrad degree.

Your disdain for public school teachers (and the NEA) is well known, but you're conflating that with college loans/subsidies for other professions that you say DO need college degrees! Who do you think is teaching those college courses in the first place?

[agamemnus]

GGT, I read a recent article with statistics showing that today's population is far more "educated" (in terms of college education), yet makes far less money per year, and is far more burdened with student debt, than generations 20 or 30 years ago.

[GGT]

GGT, I read a recent article with statistics showing that today's population is far more "educated" (in terms of college education), yet makes far less money per year, and is far more burdened with student debt, than generations 20 or 30 years ago.

Do you doubt that?

[Aimless]

GGT, I read a recent article with statistics showing that today's population is far more "educated" (in terms of college education), yet makes far less money per year, and is far more burdened with student debt, than generations 20 or 30 years ago.

What do you believe is the underlying reason for that surprisingly low income? What do you believe it would have been like without the education?

[Loki]

GGT, I read a recent article with statistics showing that today's population is far more "educated" (in terms of college education), yet makes far less money per year, and is far more burdened with student debt, than generations 20 or 30 years ago.

Ecological fallacy. Only people without degrees have seem their real wages fall.

[agamemnus]

Ecological fallacy. Only people without degrees have seem their real wages fall.

Interesting consideration. But, I do believe this article mentioned a study for specifically people with degrees.

What do you believe is the underlying reason for that surprisingly low income? What do you believe it would have been like without the education?

A few reasons. Companies have more access to human capital with the advent of the internet, and free trade. The stratification of wealth and automation increases competition. That all depresses prices (wages) a lot. Paying exorbitant amounts for college in the United States and many other countries, despite the dim prospects, is like legal robbery, because of our ingrained culture that going to a university and paying those exorbitant amounts will put one towards a path to smiles and riches.

There is another disconnect which keeps wages high for some but increases unemployment and underemployment. Many countries do not have the very many bureaucratic requirements of hiring and keeping employees like we do in the U.S., not to mention all the taxes, forms, and legal worries. Some of that is justified. Some of that is just red tape that preserves jobs for some (the ones lucky enough to have a full-time job that matches their skills) and makes the U.S. less competitive. Note that much of the red tape is thrown away for freelancers, because freelancers are contractors and not "employees". Note the recent clash of Uber (and others) and many local jurisdictions because of this misconception that contractors are employees. Government doesn't get it, because it's in its interest to placate its constituents with either high-paying jobs or the promise of jobs, but not market-rate jobs.

[GGT]

What do you believe is the underlying reason for that surprisingly low income? What do you believe it would have been like without the education?

It's not that income for college grads is "surprisingly low", but that it hasn't kept pace relative to other rising costs. Wage stagnation might be a better term. Even people with college degrees and 'professional' careers have had a harder time affording the things traditionally associated with middle-income/middle-class life than they did just two decades ago....like buying a home, or having children, or taking vacations...while also buying a good health insurance policy, and saving for retirement.

Ecological fallacy. Only people without degrees have seem their real wages fall.

*Real* wages haven't reflected the *real* COL, let alone our societal or cultural values, for a long time. You were just lucky enough to take advantage of Pell Grants and Educational Scholarships at a time when academia was still held in high regard, and using public tax dollars for public education wasn't considered controversial.

[Loki]

Yeah, people today have fewer cars, smaller TVs, less advanced computers and phones, etc.

[GGT]

Yeah, people today have fewer cars, smaller TVs, less advanced computers and phones, etc.

No, that's not what wage stagnation means.