What do you guys think about DIY lawyering?

[wiggin]

My wife and I need to set up a will and trust for our life insurance/etc. assets in the unlikely event that we would both die unexpectedly. We've found a lawyer we trust, but the price tag is a bit steep - almost 2 grand, though that's in line with what we've seen quoted elsewhere. There are, however, lots of online DIY will/trust options that are much cheaper - on the order of $100. Some reviews I've seen say that these sites are 'good enough' for 'simple' estates, though they are couched in caveats about the somewhat sloppy/imprecise nature of the documents.

Have any of you used these online services? Did you feel they met your needs and obviated the need for a lawyer? I'm mostly looking for a way to set up our assets (mostly life insurance plus some modest retirement/etc. savings) to avoid probate and state level estate taxes (our estate isn't big enough yet to trigger federal estate taxes), and set up a trustee and guardian for the trust assets. We'd also like the future-proof the document and make it as portable as possible across state lines.

Any of you have experience doing this? I'd love to save nearly $2k but am a bit leery of doing so if the product won't meet legal standards.

[Khendraja'aro]

I'd suggest getting a lawyer for anything besides a standard, easily found situation (and even in those cases I'd be thinking hard).

Law is hellishly complicated.

[Hazir]

My wife and I need to set up a will and trust for our life insurance/etc. assets in the unlikely event that we would both die unexpectedly. We've found a lawyer we trust, but the price tag is a bit steep - almost 2 grand, though that's in line with what we've seen quoted elsewhere. There are, however, lots of online DIY will/trust options that are much cheaper - on the order of $100. Some reviews I've seen say that these sites are 'good enough' for 'simple' estates, though they are couched in caveats about the somewhat sloppy/imprecise nature of the documents.

Have any of you used these online services? Did you feel they met your needs and obviated the need for a lawyer? I'm mostly looking for a way to set up our assets (mostly life insurance plus some modest retirement/etc. savings) to avoid probate and state level estate taxes (our estate isn't big enough yet to trigger federal estate taxes), and set up a trustee and guardian for the trust assets. We'd also like the future-proof the document and make it as portable as possible across state lines.

Any of you have experience doing this? I'd love to save nearly $2k but am a bit leery of doing so if the product won't meet legal standards.

I've never used any of those services but if the situation is really as standard as you make it out to be I would - like you - at least consider it. But you shouldn't forget that that also comes with you (and your wife) actually reading everything and never satisfy yourself with a half answer before you put your signatures under any document. Any question you leave open today will come back to bite you in the ass.

It is my experience that lawyers half of the time just wing it and don't necessarily are worth the money they charge you. But it could be that I think that because I have knowledge about the field the lawyers I encounter deal with that very often leaves them at a significant disadvantage. (A rule of thumb for me is; the longer a letter sent by a lawyer is, the less substance it really has).

[RandBlade]

In general with law I'd think anyone DIYing it as the saying goes has a fool for a client.

However this is different you're not currently in dispute and never may be. You don't get a lawyer every time you sign a contract and I don't see why this should be any different. If it's simple and standard enough and if your heirs aren't douchebags then it should be simple enough to do yourself. Caveat emptor.

[Khendraja'aro]

Yeah, Rand, but that's the thing: Do you actually know who your heirs are? I mean, sure, children and siblings are pretty clear. But what about the parents? Or the extended part of the family, like cousins and stuff?

[Flixy]

If it's simple and standard enough and if your heirs aren't douchebags then it should be simple enough to do yourself. Caveat emptor.

Well, problem is you don't know if your heirs will be douchebags by the time you die, of course. But if there is conflict before your death you can always prop up the will using a lawyer if you think it might be necessary (perhaps you have an estranged kid by then, or something, who knows). Other than that I'd say the average will is pretty standard and should be okay to do yourself, especially since you seem to know at least basic stuff about legal contracts, so if you read everything carefully I'd say you're fine (especially if your heirs aren't douchebags). Unless you want certain special provisions, at least.

Fees for stuff like this often bug me, we just had to spend almost €500 for a notarization of a document we could just as easily have written ourselves, since it was a standard document. But since it has to be done by a notary, you don't have a choice. Best bet is finding one you're friends with and hoping he does it for free..

[Khendraja'aro]

[...]Best bet is finding one you're friends with and hoping he does it for free..

That's one thing I'd never do to a friend. This is what he earns his living with. I've seen that happen all too often:

"[Friend], you're a photographer, right? There's this wedding of mine coming up..."
"[Friend], you're shooting and editing all those video clips! I've got some recordings from [insert event here]..."

And similar stuff.

[Flixy]

That's one thing I'd never do to a friend. This is what he earns his living with. I've seen that happen all too often:

"[Friend], you're a photographer, right? There's this wedding of mine coming up..."
"[Friend], you're shooting and editing all those video clips! I've got some recordings from [insert event here]..."

And similar stuff.

It depends - as a friend I also do favors for others, you try and help eachother out where possible. For example, I've done plenty of work for free for friends - in cases where I know they can't afford it otherwise. I know they'd also help me out. Plus this work was mostly in entertainment (music, film), where prices often are changed for who you know (and a lot of work is voluntary anyway). I don't see much wrong with giving friends better rates (have actually done the video clip example), as long as they also help you out. Or in the case of video clips, that when they actually do have money, they will hire you and pay you proper. Not just between friends though, it's very common to work for cheap or free for people you think/hope can be valuable to you later. Give and take, I guess. If we'd had to pay full price for anything we've filmed, we'd be royally screwed, over the past years we have had up to 80% discounts on camera work, 'rented' a flatbed truck for a week for free, camera crews working for free - it would have been impossible without that. But that also means helping said crew with a portfolio thing, renting from the same place when you do have the money, etc., and I would not be upset if they said no (I know editing a video clip is a shitload of work, and wedding photography is a huge task as well, and I know what it's worth). As long as you only do it when you need the help, I'm fine with that. Hell, if anyone asks if I can proofread something I'll do that, I wouldn't send them on to a professional interpreter or something. If someone needs help with a math or physics problem, do you help that friend, or do you send them on to expensive tutors? I think it's okay to ask things like that, as long as you're not upset when you get a 'no' in return, and are open for helping others as well. It's like a friendly bartender giving you free drinks sometimes - it's nice if he does that, but no problem if he doesn't (or can't).

The notary example was about the statutes for a charity foundation - I personally have no qualms for asking a notary to do half an hour's work for free instead of asking nearly €500. And for that he does get linked on the website, so it's more like sponsorship, really - but let's face it, that's often based on who likes you and goodwill more than economic sense.

edit: sorry for bring this thread offtopic, if khen wants to agree the argument maybe that should be in another thread.

[wiggin]

It is my experience that lawyers half of the time just wing it and don't necessarily are worth the money they charge you. But it could be that I think that because I have knowledge about the field the lawyers I encounter deal with that very often leaves them at a significant disadvantage. (A rule of thumb for me is; the longer a letter sent by a lawyer is, the less substance it really has).

I have not had this experience - estate lawyers do this stuff all the time and have a very detailed level of knowledge of the relevant law. Most of my lawyers friends (though not estate lawyers) display a remarkably impressive handle on legal issues, and attack their jobs with creativity and sophistication. Then again, most of my current crop of lawyer friends went to Harvard. So there may be some selection bias.

(Funny aside: we have a friend who is a corporate lawyer for a very large firm. He specializes in fighting with other fancy corporate lawyers over the carcass of large, complex, bankrupt companies. He's pretty much representing the Man, though at least his opponents are equally rich. Yet his firm also does pro bono work for various individuals and community organizations - immigration cases, loan defaults, etc. His stories about this are hilarious - some poor schmuck of a lawyer on the opposite site thinks he has an easy pushover case because his opponents can't hire fancy legal talent, but then they run up against a well-known firm that has every incentive to make their life as difficult as possible - and is willing to use effectively unlimited resources to win. My friend's firm often wins these cases just because the opposite side isn't willing to slug it out in a real fight.)

In general with law I'd think anyone DIYing it as the saying goes has a fool for a client.

However this is different you're not currently in dispute and never may be. You don't get a lawyer every time you sign a contract and I don't see why this should be any different. If it's simple and standard enough and if your heirs aren't douchebags then it should be simple enough to do yourself. Caveat emptor.

So my real concern here is that I want to avoid probate at all costs - it can eat up a significant portion of the estate in fees, and takes time. So I'm concerned that a poorly constructed will/trust will still result in the estate going into probate, which kinda obviates the point (and certainly costs more than the $2k I'm looking at now). Furthermore, it's not so much asshole heirs I'm worried about as minor heirs - I want to be able to specify their guardians and the like. Again, it seems from online reviews that minor dependents dramatically increase the complexity of a situation and raise the price of a poorly drafted document.

I mean, I do my own taxes - I feel like it's not that hard, it saves a bit of money, and if gives me a better insight into how the incentives in the system are structured. But this seems like it's a bit more complex, and almost designed so a layman can't easily do it correctly.



As for the 'asking friends' thing, I would never ask a friend to give me a better price for their bread-and-butter work. I might ask them for advice - in fact, I routinely do this for various professionals - but it's very much in a casual vein without an expectation of a professional level of analysis. The lawyer we've identified is an acquaintance (more a friends of various friends), but even if she were a good friend, we would pay her for this kind of work.

[Khendraja'aro]

If someone needs help with a math or physics problem, do you help that friend, or do you send them on to expensive tutors?

Well, it probably depends on the business. But by and large, doing (expensive) stuff for free is setting a bad precedent.

I've had that happen to me - I helped my parents with their tech issues and sometimes they promise neighbours that I'd help them without asking me first. Stuff like that.
Not to mention that people outside your circles hear of this and then become upset when you actually charge them what your work is worth - like in the case of the photographer where people don't see the work one has to do afterwards. Not that doing the shoot itself isn't a picnic either.

As for the physics problem - I'd only do that for free if it was interesting. Otherwise I will expect some kind of compensation.

[Hazir]

What the opposing side seems to forget is that even those cast-iron arrangements can cause court cases with unexpected results. If something unforeseen comes up in the end all that counts is what the Judge reads into the contested agreement. Even the best lawyers can't predict every situation in a moving field.

[Khendraja'aro]

But they can do it better than the layman. And they know about standard situations you didn't think of - because they're standard for a lawyer, not so much for the layman.

[LittleFuzzy]

My wife and I need to set up a will and trust for our life insurance/etc. assets in the unlikely event that we would both die unexpectedly. We've found a lawyer we trust, but the price tag is a bit steep - almost 2 grand, though that's in line with what we've seen quoted elsewhere. There are, however, lots of online DIY will/trust options that are much cheaper - on the order of $100. Some reviews I've seen say that these sites are 'good enough' for 'simple' estates, though they are couched in caveats about the somewhat sloppy/imprecise nature of the documents.

Have any of you used these online services? Did you feel they met your needs and obviated the need for a lawyer? I'm mostly looking for a way to set up our assets (mostly life insurance plus some modest retirement/etc. savings) to avoid probate and state level estate taxes (our estate isn't big enough yet to trigger federal estate taxes), and set up a trustee and guardian for the trust assets. We'd also like the future-proof the document and make it as portable as possible across state lines.

Any of you have experience doing this? I'd love to save nearly $2k but am a bit leery of doing so if the product won't meet legal standards.

Because you want it to be as portable as possible across state lines, you should pay the lawyer. If that isn't actually as necessary for you, I'd say the DIY is indeed good enough for what you want to do. The lawyer isn't going to change the odds of it ending up in probate that much for simple estates.

[wiggin]

Because you want it to be as portable as possible across state lines, you should pay the lawyer. If that isn't actually as necessary for you, I'd say the DIY is indeed good enough for what you want to do. The lawyer isn't going to change the odds of it ending up in probate that much for simple estates.

I strongly suspect we'll be moving to another state within a few years, hence that concern; it's quite possible we'll move several times, in fact. I also think that 'future proofing' (e.g. for additional dependents, for increasing assets, etc.) is more likely to work with a professionally prepared set of documents.

It's really just the huge price differential that's a hangup for me. I don't (yet) have ownership stakes in any companies, don't have any significant alternative assets, etc. So in principle it's pretty simple, though the total size does push it into territory where you start to need tax planning. So I'm really on the fence about this one.

[GGT]

wiggin, there's nothing wrong with DIY lawyering...when it's done by smart and savvy people like you. You're already considering survivorship/heirs and estate planning before your first child!

It doesn't matter how many times you and your wife move between states in the next decades. What matters is the planning....and you have all the tools that can trump paid lawyers.

I'm kinda confused what you're asking.

[Loki]

I'm with Khen, with the proviso that I know nothing about the legal issues with these kind of documents. Basically, the problem with legalese is that certain words or phrases (or lack thereof) carry with them huge connotations, but those are connotations that laypeople have no knowledge about. I've come across this when dealing with visa issues. A phrase that you might think means something quite obvious in fact has a very specific legal meaning. Furthermore, the kind of evidence needed in support of something might be vastly different to the kind of evidence that you think is necessary (or that the form claims is necessary).

I suppose a cheaper alternative to hiring a lawyer might be to write up your own document and see of a lawyer will look at it for major problems. That should cost substantially less than having the lawyer write everything up from scratch.

[GGT]

PS, there's no easy way to "future proof" your decisions.

[LittleFuzzy]

PS, there's no easy way to "future proof" your decisions.

Yes, but that holds for the lawyered-up version too.

[Hazir]

Yes, but that holds for the lawyered-up version too.

Exactly. And 'legalese' is really not that difficult if you make the effort.

[GGT]

Yes, but that holds for the lawyered-up version too.

When it comes to property law and real estate.....it was much easier for people to "DIY" before the sub-prime mortgage crisis.