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Thread: Religious and Reproductive Rights

  1. #1

    Default Religious and Reproductive Rights

    What to do when they collide and compete?

    The *Affordable Healthcare Act* was passed with a clause requiring employers (who provide health insurance to employees) to include birth control coverage. Note: not abortions. There's an exemption for churches/temples/mosques to opt-out for religious reasons. Sec. of HHS Sebelius has interpreted that to mean healthcare facilities and universities who hire workers outside their religion, and use federal funds, don't meet that 'religious criteria'.

    Big controversy from Catholics and candidates. Some are stoking the flames by calling it a War on Religion, others call it a War on Women's Reproductive health. Both sides see it as a Rights issue and discrimination.


    What do you think?


    It's a tangled mess, but IMO one basic cause of the problem is how we've coupled healthcare with employment, needing employers to help us pay for expensive insurance coverage, and giving certain employers preferred negotiating and group rates they can use for corporate tax reductions. Plus, not tackling high costs of care, and not having a public option.
    Last edited by GGT; 02-08-2012 at 05:02 AM. Reason: *oops on the acronym

  2. #2
    Edit #2 for clarification: Religious-based hospitals and schools would be required to include birth control in their employee health insurance offerings. Catholic doctrine says anything but abstinence or the rhythm method is unacceptable.

    Example: Notre Dame would need to offer birth control and family planning insurance coverage to all their employees, since they hire non-Catholic professors, janitors, secretaries, etc. Even though it's predominantly a Catholic institution with mission goals from the Vatican, they're considered employers first and foremost, and a religious-affiliated institution is secondary.

    <Ignore the fact that over 75% of Catholic women (claim to) use birth control methods like condoms, hormonal pills/injections/implants, diaphragms, IUDs, or even tubal ligation.>

  3. #3
    Views but no replies I figured at least the social conservatives and religious folks here would have an opinion on this. OK, for context, an article:

    Obama Acts to Calm Furor on Birth Control Coverage Rule

    By HELENE COOPER

    Published: February 10, 2012

    WASHINGTON — President Obama, seeking to dampen a runaway political furor over birth control and religious liberty, unveiled a plan on Friday that is meant to calm the right’s ire about a new administration rule that would require health insurance plans — including those offered by Roman Catholic hospitals, universities and charities — to provide free birth control to female employees.

    In a speech from the White House briefing room on Friday, President Obama offered "accommodations" to religious institutions on the new health insurance rule.

    Casting himself as both “a citizen and a Christian” trying to balance individual liberty versus public health, Mr. Obama announced what administration officials called an “accommodation” that they said sought to demonstrate respect for religious beliefs. It will be similar to the path taken in several other states — particularly Hawaii — that have similar rules, but would require that insurance companies, and not religious institutions, offer contraceptive coverage at no cost.


    “Religious liberty will be protected, and a law that requires free preventive care will not discriminate against women,” Mr. Obama told reporters in the White House briefing room. He said the “political football” his foes were making of the new rule prompted him to speed up work on a solution. “It became clear that spending months hammering a solution was not going to be an option.”


    But administration officials also acknowledged that the revision announced Friday would most likely fail to mollify the Catholic bishops who have waged war against the rule or, for that matter, Republicans in Congress and on the presidential campaign trail who have joined the fight. At most, the compromise could potentially help the president shore up support among wavering Democrats, who have also expressed doubt about the rule, along with more liberal religious organizations and charities, who oppose the rule but not as vehemently as the Catholic leadership.

    The administration plan most closely resembles Hawaii’s, in which employees at religious institutions whose health insurance plans do not offer free contraception can get birth control through side benefits. The difference, though, is that whereas in Hawaii the employees nominally pay for the benefits, the Obama proposal would shift the cost to insurers. Administration officials hope that insurers will not object because in the long run, they argue, contraceptives end up saving more money than they cost because they prevent unwanted pregnancies.

    The administration’s move won an important endorsement from Sister Carol Keehan, president and chief executive officer of the Catholic Health Association of the United States, whose support the White House sees as essential to show that the policy is backed by some religious organizations. In fact, Sister Carol’s endorsement was so important that Mr. Obama called her Friday morning — along with Archbishop Timothy M. Dolan of New York and Cecile Richards, the president of Planned Parenthood — to inform her of the compromise.

    “The Catholic Health Association is very pleased with the White House announcement that a resolution has been reached that protects the religious liberty and conscience rights of Catholic institutions,” Sister Carol said in a statement. “The framework developed has responded to the issues we identified that needed to be fixed.”


    Abortion rights groups also seemed open to the White House shift and blamed the controversy on conservative efforts to undermine the president.
    “We’re reassured that it appears that no woman, no matter where she works, will lose birth control coverage, but it’s outrageous and disheartening that this important step forward for women became a target of the far-right,” said Stephanie Schriock, president of Emily’s List.

    Nancy Keenan, president of Naral Pro-Choice America, said the Obama administration’s action represented a reaffirmation of the commitment to ensuring contraceptive coverage. “Unfortunately, some opponents of contraception may not be satisfied,” she said.

    The administration announced the birth-control rule last month, and since then, Republican presidential candidates and conservative leaders have sought to frame it as an example of the administration’s insensitivity to religious beliefs, prompting Mr. Obama’s aides to explore ways to make it more palatable to religious-affiliated institutions, perhaps by allowing some employers to make side insurance plans available that are not directly paid for by the institutions.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/11/he...y.html?_r=1&hp

  4. #4
    The fight about this is a distraction from the larger issue: why does government have the right to mandate that insurance companies cover regular medical care and require that the insurance companies not charge for something that isn't free?

    Insurance is supposed to be a system where people pay a premium to have a company cover a large, unanticipated medical expense. In general, there's nothing unanticipated about prescription contraceptives.

    To me, this whole flap exposes the fundamental breakdown behind Obamacare, which itself is designed to exacerbate the regulatory flaws that were already in our insurance market.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    The fight about this is a distraction from the larger issue: why does government have the right to mandate that insurance companies cover regular medical care and require that the insurance companies not charge for something that isn't free?

    Insurance is supposed to be a system where people pay a premium to have a company cover a large, unanticipated medical expense. In general, there's nothing unanticipated about prescription contraceptives.

    To me, this whole flap exposes the fundamental breakdown behind Obamacare, which itself is designed to exacerbate the regulatory flaws that were already in our insurance market.
    How is sex less anticipated than a lung infection? As usual, it seems you have nothing to say, but you are proud to say it. What isn't free in your nation? It seems incredible that you associate full coverage with those who charge for things that are not free
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  6. #6
    I don't think you read the post carefully enough to understand the distinction being made between health insurance and regular medical expenses (which the government is apparently requiring the insurance companies lose money on).

  7. #7
    I don't think you understand how little the distinction means in current US parlance, let alone what you just said

    But of course I am the idiot
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  8. #8
    De Oppresso Liber CitizenCain's Avatar
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    I have "full coverage" insurance on my house and car. When I need an oil change or a new light bulb, though, I don't file an insurance claim. There's a difference between routine, expected maintenance, which insurance typically doesn't re-reimburse for (and is not intended to be used for) and the unexpected accidents that is what insurance is typically used as a hedge against.

    That's the problem - you (and most people) seem to think that health insurance should pay for anything even remotely related to "health," when that's not what insurance is. Insurance is risk mitigation; protection against UNEXPECTED events.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  9. #9
    I too can't fathom why contraceptive coverage is mandatory, but from a slightly different take. It shouldn't be necessary at all. Insurance companies ought to be providing it for free because that costs them a lot less than covering the results of not using contraceptives. And even if the insurance companies weren't you'd think the employers would be all but handing them out with the coffee because again, way cheaper and less of a hassle for them than the pregnancies would be.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  10. #10
    That very argument is presented in the article. But insurance companies WANT pregnancies. It's a long con, they want more people to insure at higher premiums.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  11. #11
    That doesn't square with what I've read elsewhere/in the past, including the shrinkage/disappearance of OBGYN practices.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  12. #12
    De Oppresso Liber CitizenCain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    It shouldn't be necessary at all. Insurance companies ought to be providing it for free because that costs them a lot less than covering the results of not using contraceptives.
    Right, like they pay for routine physicals and tests for whatever diseases that are horribly expensive to treat if not caught early.

    You'd think it would make the same fiscal sense for them to provide me a few hundred bucks a year worth in rubbers (or cover me for a snip-snip) to avoid the risk of having to pay thousands or tens of thousands of dollars in costs if I ever knock up a chick. <shudder>

    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    That doesn't square with what I've read elsewhere/in the past, including the shrinkage/disappearance of OBGYN practices.
    Yeah, Minxy's way off base. Pregnancies cost insurance companies way more than another potential customer is worth.

    Having said that, I think the disappearance of OBGYN shops is related to the relatively low margins for OBGYNs and the relatively high cost of malpractice insurance for them, and doesn't have anything to do with the cost of pregnancies and the like to the insurance companies that provide health insurance to individuals.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    That doesn't square with what I've read elsewhere/in the past, including the shrinkage/disappearance of OBGYN practices.
    Just to clarify, only the first sentence of my post was serious
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    I too can't fathom why contraceptive coverage is mandatory, but from a slightly different take. It shouldn't be necessary at all. Insurance companies ought to be providing it for free because that costs them a lot less than covering the results of not using contraceptives. And even if the insurance companies weren't you'd think the employers would be all but handing them out with the coffee because again, way cheaper and less of a hassle for them than the pregnancies would be.
    Bingo! But the US healthcare employer-based insurance industry hasn't been operating on what's best for health, let alone reducing costs.

    The Affordable Care Act passed congress with a "rule" yet to be defined, regarding preventive care. All preventive care and screening was to be done without co-pays or deductibles, to incentivize people to take advantage of those things. Strange round-about toward dealing with fee-for-service, but it was a start.

    HHS Sec. Sebelius followed advice from the NIH, who'd said womens' reproductive care was paramount in many ways. And that womens' health affected things from personal freedoms to public policies, including Education. That's where the initial rule writing originated: balancing women's health and public health, with employer mandates, and religious-affiliated doctrine.

    The "rules" weren't going to be implemented until 2013, and only after meting out all parties demands (including the Catholic bishops). It was supposed to be a work in progress, until the hysterics of Gingrich or Santorum tried to make this a political wedge issue.

  15. #15
    FYI, Gingrich proclaimed this was an outright affront to Catholics, and that Obama would use a second term to attack and dismantle all religions, particularly the Catholic Church. Santorum said basically the same, and that Obama was intent on destroying religion and faith-based freedoms....to the point we'd have government using the guillotine like the French did during their revolution.

    Seriously, who's the intended audience for that kind of fear tactic? And why would an entire political party allow their "message" to be hijacked by the smallest and most extreme group of people?

  16. #16
    People like you, only on the opposite side of the political spectrum.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  17. #17
    Anybody here ever actually have to buy birth control pills?

    I just paid $25 for my new prescription (had to change brands due to some issues I was having)- found out it's normally a $99 charge without insurance! For a one-month (daily pill) supply. What the fuck. Now, granted, this is a name brand; a generic or different type would be about a third less in cost. I'll be calling my doctor and insurance next week to figure out what cheaper brand alternatives I can take. Fucking irritating, but I guess my bad for not asking about generics beforehand. AS an aside, when I had no insurance eons ago that $25 was the cost of a different generic pill I took.

    It's no wonder people get knocked up all the time; it's cheaper to be on the government dole than it is to find a doctor, then pay for an exam, then pay a ridiculous price for a prescription that isn't any better than some generic pill (but your doofus doctor prescribed it without checking that lovely generic box on the form).

    (and yes, I know I've said I'd stay out of D&D. I just wondered since it's mostly a male audience here if anyone really knew that birth control, at least the pills, aren't always cheap to come by. Thus, insurance is important to help)

  18. #18
    De Oppresso Liber CitizenCain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catgrrl View Post
    Anybody here ever actually have to buy birth control pills?
    Not at the moment, but I have paid for that "birth control shot" (Depo-Provera) a chick can get every 3 months, in place of the daily pills or whatever else you wrap around/stuff up in your genital area every time you use them to prevent passing on the STD of life.

    I cost about 150 bucks every 12 weeks, and insurance didn't cover any of it. (I think it was about half for the drug and half for the doctor's appointment to administer it). Still a good deal - not much more than buying rubbers, but with the benefit of not having to wear rubbers, w00t w00t.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catgrrl View Post
    (and yes, I know I've said I'd stay out of D&D. I just wondered since it's mostly a male audience here if anyone really knew that birth control, at least the pills, aren't always cheap to come by. Thus, insurance is important to help)
    Make the guy pay for it. Seriously, I did the math and it was less than 3 bucks an orgasm. Less than 3 bucks for the joys of not having to wear a rubber? Most guys'll be all over that deal, though, it really only works if you're seeing each other exclusively, or don't care about sleeping around and contracting Herpes or whatever.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  19. #19
    Since I'm a stay at home, my guy does pay for it. He's not complaining about not having to wear condoms either I'm just being nitpicky over the wide range of costs for birth control. I guess one could argue it isn't all that expensive compared to other aspects of health care.

  20. #20
    De Oppresso Liber CitizenCain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catgrrl View Post
    He's not complaining about not having to wear condoms either
    Lucky lady. I wouldn't let you get away with making me wear rubbers if you were also on birth control. That I was paying for.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catgrrl View Post
    I guess one could argue it isn't all that expensive compared to other aspects of health care.
    Yeah, it's really not. Government makes it more expensive that it could otherwise be, but still pretty cheap. I paid the full cost of <$650/yr for that Depo-Provera, and more than half of that cost was thanks to our country's fucktarded War on [some] Drugs. I can handle a needle, and there's no reason it should require a fucking prescription and a visit to a doctor to get birth control. Shit, Depo-Provera only costs 30 bucks a dose these days, at 4 and 1/3 doses per annum, that's $130 a year. (Maybe add a few bucks for proper medical hypodermic syringes, if you like). Except you need a medical professional to inject it and a visit to a doctor to get government permission to use it (prescription).

    As usual, regulation takes something everyone in this country could afford, and makes the financial costs a burden on those who aren't fairly well off. Yippie, government.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  21. #21
    Oops, I did a double negative there. I meant he's happy to pay for my pills in exchange for no condoms I'm still going to shop for a better price, since paying 5 times the amount I used to isn't decreasing my chances of getting pregnant, and haven't made me any less bitchy as hoped.

  22. #22
    De Oppresso Liber CitizenCain's Avatar
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    Look into the Depo-Provera shot, unless you're scared of needles or whatever. There's also a sub-dermal "implant" thing that's supposed to last a few years that a few chicks I know have gotten. They say it costs less than the pill over the long run, and they don't have to worry about taking a pill every day (or missing one). One of the brand-name ones goes by the name Implanon.

    Oh, here we go:

    "The cost of the exam, Implanon, and insertion ranges from $400–$800. Removal costs between $100 and $300."
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  23. #23
    The shot only works for a couple of years, it starts to eat at your bone mass after that.

    Brandy does the pills too. First brand completely killed her sex drive. Trying a different brand now.
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  24. #24
    De Oppresso Liber CitizenCain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    The shot only works for a couple of years, it starts to eat at your bone mass after that.
    I think that only applies to the chick. My bone mass is still fine.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  25. #25
    this is true
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  26. #26
    Yes, my last two doctors specifically were against Depo shot for that reason.

    I am thinking of more long term possibilities.

  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    People like you, only on the opposite side of the political spectrum.
    That's your "analysis" of the GOP's extreme political narrative? People like me would be millions of people who view birth control as a health issue. Since a majority of our healthcare is through employer-based insurance, it's also a labor/work force issue. Those who work for a religious affiliated institution shouldn't be denied access based on what the Vatican believes.

    The pro-life Republicans want to de-fund Planned Parenthood, overturn Griswold and Roe v Wade, let states ban birth control, allow all insurers to opt-out of any birth control coverage, and amend constitutions to define embryos as people. On top of that, they're claiming this is a First Amendment religious freedom issue. I think they've opened a can of worms and are on the wrong side of the debate. It's the 21st century FFS, and even a majority of Catholic women use birth control.

  28. #28
    De Oppresso Liber CitizenCain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    That's your "analysis" of the GOP's extreme political narrative?
    No, it's quite clearly his analysis of you. You're the left-wing version of the people Newt's pandering to at the moment.

    You may choose not to see it, but it's true. And really, you two groups oughta get along smashingly... just think of how much you guys have in common, even beyond your shared distrust of j00s and such.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by CitizenCain View Post
    No, it's quite clearly his analysis of you. You're the left-wing version of the people Newt's pandering to at the moment.

    You may choose not to see it, but it's true. And really, you two groups oughta get along smashingly... just think of how much you guys have in common, even beyond your shared distrust of j00s and such.
    And a big to you, too. For making comments about me instead of being "on topic".

    This isn't limited to Republican candidates pandering to their most extreme and radical members during primaries/caucuses, but the GOP in general. They're trying to revisit the 60's when it comes to birth control, and alienating the moderates (and women) within their own party along the way. Only a few Republicans have publicly distanced themselves from the "crazies" in their midst.

    Y'know, like what's being proposed by the Republican controlled Virginia state legislature and Republican Governor---who's rumored to be on the short list as a VP candidate, btw---in their efforts to conflate birth control access with abortion services. They mix it all up with a mega-dose of religion, moral objections, intrusive probing of womens' vaginas, and interfering with physicians' professional practices.

    They have the nerve to claim they're defending religious freedom, individual liberties, promoting smaller and less 'intrusive' government....by legislating womens' healthcare according to religious/Catholic doctrine? I call foul on their BS.

  30. #30
    Just checking this thread out. Nope, no self-described Conservative or Republican willing to tackle what Santorum, Gingrich, or Romney have said regarding the issue. Even though all Republican candidates have tried to tack to the uber right during primaries/caucuses.

    Santorum is actually challenging President Obama for his "theology", and pitting Catholic dogma against secular Democracy.

    I'm surprised such fundamental issues in our politics hasn't seen more vocal posters in our forum.

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