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Thread: "It's just mutilation"

  1. #61
    Flixy, Khendra:

    It seems to me that there are two, wholly unrelated arguments to be had. One is about potential medical benefits (more on this later), and the other is on choice. If there are indeed benefits, it doesn't make much sense to postpone circumcision until adulthood. If there aren't, there's no (non-cultural) reason for people to be circumcized at all. Thus, if there are medical benefits, the 'let parents wait until kids are old' point is a red herring; if there aren't, the debate moves to broader questions about choice and parental control and can safely ignore issues of STDs. Let's just recognize that, and not waste our time conflating the two arguments into a confusing mishmash.

    Furthermore, I think your responses both illustrate quite cogently why even the public health issues are largely determined by culture. What will be the result of widespread circumcision on sexual practices in a given culture? What's the counterfactual? Which age groups will benefit from circumcision? These questions are all complex and can't be answered by a single study or a single statistic - it depends on the society/country/class in question. Some societies in Africa had little to no circumcision and have been encouraged to do so by public health officials. It seems rather likely that the effect of this on sexual behavior is quite different than on a society where a large proportion of men are already circumcized; taking these complexities into account is not straightforward. The dynamics of disease transmission are similarly complex (as is the level of casual sex vs. serial monogamy vs. polyamory in a given society), and even relatively modest improvements in reducing transmission of certain diseases can have significant impacts on public health (and the public purse).

    I don't think you will find anyone here who disagrees that better sex ed and more widespread condom use during promiscuous sexual contact is the ideal outcome in any society; the question is whether that happy result is the counterfactual to increasing male circumcision; in some cases it may be, in other cases it most certainly isn't.

    It is likely that in some cases male circumcision has a net positive effect on public health; in other cases, it probably has a net negative effect. Given that reality, we need to get back to the underlying question: if you had a net positive effect on public health for a given society, should it be allowed or encouraged? If a given society won't experience a net positive effect, should it be banned? What if the data is unclear? Separately, should it be banned just on principles even if it does have a therapeutic benefit?

    I'm inclined to think that it should be allowed in all cases but only encouraged in specific ones. This neatly avoids the tricky issue of religious/cultural mores and first amendment (or equivalent) issues, while still allowing for that fact that medical benefits may not accrue to every society where it is practiced.

    GGT: please use Pubmed. There's a vast amount of data on circumcision, and it's not at all clear cut; there are a lot of different factors involved, but it certainly appears that in some cases there are medical benefits to the individual and public health benefits to society. It's perfectly reasonable to argue that these benefits do not outweigh the risks and losses involved, but arguing that the benefits don't exist at all is silly.

  2. #62
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    The logic between "There are benefits" and "thus it must be done immediately" doesn't quite wash.

    Particularly if said "benefits" don't come into play until an age where the person in question could indeed be allowed to make an independent decision.

    And even more particularly if said "benefits" account to making one less likely to die from playing Russian Roulette. Which is what having only a diminished chance of contracting STDs boils down to.

    I mean, there's a distinct chance of me suffering from appendicitis or even a ruptured appendicitis which in the latter case is a very serious condition. However, for some weird reason, I don't see people going around, demanding a wholesale removal of the appendix for everyone.
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  3. #63
    Let's not forget however that most men and women on this planet sooner or later find themselves in somewhat stable relationships that prominently feature unprotected sex.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    I mean, there's a distinct chance of me suffering from appendicitis or even a ruptured appendicitis which in the latter case is a very serious condition. However, for some weird reason, I don't see people going around, demanding a wholesale removal of the appendix for everyone.
    Probably because you need your appendix more than you need your foreskin
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  5. #65
    Stingy DM Veldan Rath's Avatar
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    Well my appendix has caused 2 surgeries in my life...2 more than my foreskin...
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  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by wiggin View Post

    It is likely that in some cases male circumcision has a net positive effect on public health; in other cases, it probably has a net negative effect. Given that reality, we need to get back to the underlying question: if you had a net positive effect on public health for a given society, should it be allowed or encouraged? If a given society won't experience a net positive effect, should it be banned? What if the data is unclear? Separately, should it be banned just on principles even if it does have a therapeutic benefit?
    Do you use the same criteria for the spectrum of female circumcision -- including 'minor' symbolic scarring or piercings, or 'cosmetic' labial resections? Those societies that do find it 'acceptable' to alter female genitalia use the same rationale: Reducing a woman's outer sex organs reduces her sexual self-esteem, prevents promiscuity, maintains patriarchal attitudes toward sex and marriage....which creates a net positive effect for public health.

    I'm inclined to think that it should be allowed in all cases but only encouraged in specific ones. This neatly avoids the tricky issue of religious/cultural mores and first amendment (or equivalent) issues, while still allowing for that fact that medical benefits may not accrue to every society where it is practiced.
    Same criteria for girls? Those who circumsize girls also believe it has some "medical benefits", by keeping her chaste (or shamed) that prevent promiscuity or pregnancy or disease. See how that works, until it doesn't?

    GGT: please use Pubmed. There's a vast amount of data on circumcision, and it's not at all clear cut; there are a lot of different factors involved, but it certainly appears that in some cases there are medical benefits to the individual and public health benefits to society. It's perfectly reasonable to argue that these benefits do not outweigh the risks and losses involved, but arguing that the benefits don't exist at all is silly.
    Nice pun. The vast amount of data from modern medicine, in developed nations, concludes/agrees there's no proven health benefit for IMC. Sure, there will always be some cases where it's medically indicated (like releasing a tight frenulum that would prevent normal hygiene or erections)....but that's not really a public health benefit, and certainly not rationale for routine (or religious-based) IMC.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Do you use the same criteria for the spectrum of female circumcision -- including 'minor' symbolic scarring or piercings, or 'cosmetic' labial resections? Those societies that do find it 'acceptable' to alter female genitalia use the same rationale: Reducing a woman's outer sex organs reduces her sexual self-esteem, prevents promiscuity, maintains patriarchal attitudes toward sex and marriage....which creates a net positive effect for public health.
    Well that's a bit of a stretch innit
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    And, just as one study found, merely reducing the risk of contracting an STD can lead to the opposite effect because now you have morons out there who think that their circumcision makes them immune and lets them forgo proper protection.

    To counter that effect you need an effective sex education. And if you're doing that anyone worth their salt will point out that the only real protection will be the use of condoms.

    Which in turn makes circumcision pointless.

    Let's face it: Merely reducing the chance of contracting an illness will not stop the spread of an illness. I mean, the US had a circumcision rate of 85% at some point. And AIDS still spread like wildfire.
    Take measles. Even with people gaining total immunity to measles through vaccinations, we still haven't gotten rid of this illness.

    Circumcision as a STD preventer is like doubling the number of chambers on a revolver and then playing Russian Roulette with this gun. Okay, you have just halved the chance of death, but it still wouldn't make me want to participate in a game of it.

    Do you realize you're kinda making a similar argument as those who say that giving kids condoms will encourage them to have sex?

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    Do you realize you're kinda making a similar argument as those who say that giving kids condoms will encourage them to have sex?
    "Kids" having more sex isn't necessarily a bad thing--in principle--if it's protected and consensual sex. What's the name for that seemingly paradoxical phenomenon where greater efficiency leads to greater overall waste due to overuse?
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    "Kids" having more sex isn't necessarily a bad thing--in principle--if it's protected and consensual sex. What's the name for that seemingly paradoxical phenomenon where greater efficiency leads to greater overall waste due to overuse?
    Capitalism?

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    "Kids" having more sex isn't necessarily a bad thing--in principle--if it's protected and consensual sex.
    Yes it is. It's just unavoidable, and somewhere lower than "bullying" in endemic teenage behaviors with negative psycho-social consequences.
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  12. #72
    Couldn't resist posting this. While I don't agree with his wholehearted endorsement of circumcision, I think he's hitting on something right with the tone of the "intactivists" and the weird foreskin worship in some corners of the Web.

    http://www.slate.com/articles/health...cumcision.html

    How Circumcision Broke the Internet

    A fringe group is drowning out any discussion of facts.

    By Mark Joseph Stern

    There are facts about circumcision—but you won’t find them easily on the Internet. Parents looking for straightforward evidence about benefits and risks are less likely to stumble across the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention than Intact America, which confronts viewers with a screaming, bloodied infant and demands that hospitals “stop experimenting on baby boys.” Just a quick Google search away lies the Circumcision Complex, a website that speculates that circumcision leads to Oedipus and castration complexes, to say nothing of the practice’s alleged brutal physiological harms. If you do locate the rare rational and informed circumcision article, you’ll be assaulted by a vitriolic mob of commenters accusing the author of encouraging “genital mutilation.”

    How did it come to this? For years, circumcision was a private decision, encouraged by many doctors, practiced by most families (in America, at least), but little discussed in the public sphere. Yet in the past two decades, a fringe group of self-proclaimed “intactivists” has hijacked the conversation, dismissing science, slamming reason, and tossing splenetic accusations at anyone who dares question their conspiracy theory. For doctors, circumcision remains a complex, delicate issue; for researchers, it’s an effective tool in the fight for global public health. But to intactivists, none of that matters. The Internet is supposed to be a marketplace of ideas, where human reason leads the best ideas to triumph. There are plenty of other loud fringe groups that flood the Internet with false information, but none of them has been as successful as the intactivists at drowning out reasoned discourse. In the case of circumcision, the marketplace of ideas has been manipulated—and thanks to intactivists, the worst ideas have won out.

    Like most fringe groups, the anti-circumcision faction is almost comically bizarre, peddling fabricated facts, self-pity, and paranoia. The intactivists also obsess about sex to an alarming degree. Still, some of their tactics are shrewd. The first rule of anti-circumcision activism, for instance, is to never, ever say circumcision: The movement prefers propaganda-style terms like male genital cutting and genital mutilation, the latter meant to invoke the odious practice of female genital mutilation. (Intactivists like to claim the two are equivalent, an utter falsity that is demeaning to victims of FGM.)

    Anti-circumcision activists then deploy a two-pronged attack on some of humanity’s most persistent weaknesses: sexual insecurity and resentment of one’s parents. Your parents, you are told by the intactivists, mutilated you when you were a defenseless child, violating your human rights and your bodily integrity. Without your consent, they destroyed the most vital component of your penis, seriously reducing your sexual pleasure and permanently hobbling you with a maimed member. Anti-circumcision activists craft an almost cultic devotion to the mythical powers of the foreskin, claiming it is responsible for the majority of pleasure derived from any sexual encounter. Your foreskin, intactivists suggest, could have provided you with a life of satisfaction and joy. Without it, you are consigned to a pleasureless, colorless, possibly sexless existence.

    Intactivists gain validity and a measure of mainstream acceptance through their sheer tenacity. Their most successful strategy is pure ubiquity, causing a casual observer to assume their strange fixations are widely accepted. Just check the comment section of any article pertaining to circumcision. When Slate’s Troy Patterson wrote a piece thoughtfully weighing circumcision’s pros and cons, he was attacked for supporting a “barbaric practice” of “mutilation” that “ought to be illegal.” A lighthearted Dear Prudence column suffered the same fate. Intactivists pummeled the Amazon rankings of a book about the history of AIDS that mentioned circumcision as a proven preventive measure. Check any Internet message board and you’ll find the same ideas peddled as unimpeachable fact: Circumcision is amputation, a brutally cruel and despicable form of abuse. It damages penises and violates human rights. And it irrevocably, undeniably ruins male sexuality for life.

    The problem with these arguments is that they’re either entirely made up or thoroughly disproven. None of intactivists’ cornerstone beliefs are based in reality or science; rather, they’re founded in lore, devilishly clever sophistry dressed up as logic. The facts about circumcision may be hard to find on an Internet cluttered with casuistry—but they are there. And they prove that even as intactivists dominate the Internet, the real-world, fact-based consensus on circumcision is tipping in the opposite direction.

    Take, for example, the key rallying cry of intactivists: That circumcision seriously reduces penis sensitivity and thus sexual pleasure. Study after study after study has proven this notion untrue. Some men circumcised as adults actually report an increase in sensitivity, while many report no appreciable difference; virtually none noted any notable decrease. Men circumcised as adults also almost universally report no adverse effect in overall sexual satisfaction following the procedure. (That fits with what my colleague Emily Bazelon found when she asked readers for their circumcision stories a few years ago.) And genital sensitivity in response to erotic stimulation is identical in circumcised and uncircumcised men. Don’t trust individual studies? A systematic review of all available data on circumcision came to the same conclusion. Intactivists, then, aren’t disputing a few flimsy studies: They’re contradicting an entire field of research.

    So much for circumcision’s supposedly crippling effect on sexual pleasure. But what about its effect on health? Intactivists like to call circumcision “medically unnecessary.” In reality, however, circumcision is an extremely effective preventive measure against global disease. Circumcision lowers the risk of HIV acquisition in heterosexual men by about 60 to 70 percent. And circumcision reduces HIV risk over a man’s lifetime, unlike condoms, which must be used during each sexual encounter. It’s no wonder that the World Health Organization has pushed circumcision as a key tool in the fight against HIV.

    But that’s not circumcision’s only benefit. The procedure also protects men against a variety of other STDs, significantly reducing their odds of contracting herpes and syphilis. Moreover, circumcision is highly effective in preventing transmission of HPV in men, which in turn reduces their risk of penile cancer. And circumcised men are far less likely to contract genital warts or develop urinary tract infections. Fewer circumcisions mean more STDs and infections—and billions more in health care spending.

    As both a personal and public health matter, circumcision is clearly in men’s best interest. But intactivists, predictably, aren’t having any of it. Like anti-vaccine conspiracy theorists, anti-circumcision activists reject all science that doesn’t fit their angry, victimized orthodoxy. Does circumcision truly prevent HIV? Probably not, they say—but even if it did, it would ultimately increase risk of HIV by lulling men and women into a false sense of complacency. (Never mind that this is emphatically false.) Plus, they claim, circumcision has such high rates of complication that its benefits couldn’t possibly outweigh its drawbacks. (Again: simply incorrect.) Anyway, to intactivists, mutilation is mutilation; what does it matter if it’s for the greater good?

    Thus far, intactivists’ ideological warfare has remained largely—though not entirely—toothless. Municipal ballot measures in America to ban circumcision have collapsed under the weight of their own weirdness; a German court’s anti-circumcision ruling was reversed by the legislature. On the Internet, though, it’s a different story. A generation of future doctors, scientists, and parents has now been exposed to a constant stream of acrimonious and unscientific lies about circumcision. Men across the world have been told their parents mutilated their genitals and ruined their sex lives. (Some even try to reverse the “damage”—for a price.) Conventional wisdom is starting to hold that even if circumcision is medically helpful, it’s also sexually harmful. Intactivists, in short, are winning the online battle. Is it only a matter of time until they win the greater war?

    Mark Joseph Stern is a Slate contributor. He writes about science, the law, and LGBT issues.

  13. #73
    Stingy DM Veldan Rath's Avatar
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    Foreskin worship??? Dude, it's your clan that has an issue with the extra flap of skin.
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  14. #74
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    Oh my, some people act crazy online! Btw, I'm fairly sure I can write an identical column about a lot of groups on the internet. And hyperbole, because last week I googled some stuff and the entire start of the article is patently false.

  15. #75
    That article ignored the distinction between infant and adult male circumcision, and individual choice.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Veldan Rath View Post
    Foreskin worship??? Dude, it's your clan that has an issue with the extra flap of skin.
    Quote Originally Posted by Flixy View Post
    Oh my, some people act crazy online! Btw, I'm fairly sure I can write an identical column about a lot of groups on the internet. And hyperbole, because last week I googled some stuff and the entire start of the article is patently false.
    I think the point being made is the "Intactivists" are sorta like anti-vaccine zealots. Not because they are wrong, but because they are over the top. I think this part stuck out-

    Your parents, you are told by the intactivists, mutilated you when you were a defenseless child, violating your human rights and your bodily integrity. Without your consent, they destroyed the most vital component of your penis, seriously reducing your sexual pleasure and permanently hobbling you with a maimed member. Anti-circumcision activists craft an almost cultic devotion to the mythical powers of the foreskin, claiming it is responsible for the majority of pleasure derived from any sexual encounter. Your foreskin, intactivists suggest, could have provided you with a life of satisfaction and joy. Without it, you are consigned to a pleasureless, colorless, possibly sexless existence.

  17. #77
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    I think the point being made is the "Intactivists" are sorta like anti-vaccine zealots. Not because they are wrong, but because they are over the top. I think this part stuck out-
    I think you should realize that this article is just as much over the top as the few crazies on the other side. You're aware that you're doing essentially the same as GGT dismissing the Republican party because of blog posts by some crazy teaparty fanatics?

    Also, the part you thought stuck out, keep in mind it's not a quote but something made by a guy opposed to the view, who would have *cough* no *cough* reason to project what he thinks about the other side onto their arguments whatsoever.. while simultaneously mocking them as worshippers of foreskin. I, at least, have never encountered anyone as over the top on this subject as that quote, and I have also googled this subject without being confronted by a bloodied screaming infant (or anything close to that). This article seems to me to be like the 'Oh my god they are attacking christmas!' type of article, reacting to the most extreme fringe of the other side, pointing out how crazy the other side is, how over the top they are, and that the writer is a sane guy trying to defend the sane people from the crazies, while tilting at windmills himself. Unless I'm missing out on a big part of this discussion, in which case I stand corrected.

    ..and I'm pretty sure you could find foreskin worship on the internet, I just think it's more rule 34 related than 'intactivist'.
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

  18. #78
    Flixy, I think your critique of Dread's article is reasonable, but I also think that there is a surprising amount of crazy on this issue. I'm talking about the kinds of people who will publish a Foreskin Man comic or make 'Intactivista: the musical' or whatever else. It's pretty nutty.

    My wife was working a number of years ago for a client who is a major producer of latex, ahem, preventatives (along with all sorts of other related paraphernalia). Her company had been hired to come up with new product ideas/innovations that would enhance the male experience while using such preventatives. As a logical part of their work, she spent a lot of time trying to understand physiology/use conditions as they were affected by circumcision. She had to look up nearly every scrap of literature on the subject, and she commented about just how extreme and overtly biased most of the literature was outside of scientific articles. I don't doubt you'd find similar nuts in other arenas (I think vaccination is definitely up there), and I don't doubt that the article Dread posted was full of hyperbole. But I do think that underlying critique is not unreasonable - most of the popular discussion around this issue is pretty ridiculous.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Flixy View Post
    I think you should realize that this article is just as much over the top as the few crazies on the other side. You're aware that you're doing essentially the same as GGT dismissing the Republican party because of blog posts by some crazy teaparty fanatics?

    Also, the part you thought stuck out, keep in mind it's not a quote but something made by a guy opposed to the view, who would have *cough* no *cough* reason to project what he thinks about the other side onto their arguments whatsoever.. while simultaneously mocking them as worshippers of foreskin. I, at least, have never encountered anyone as over the top on this subject as that quote, and I have also googled this subject without being confronted by a bloodied screaming infant (or anything close to that). This article seems to me to be like the 'Oh my god they are attacking christmas!' type of article, reacting to the most extreme fringe of the other side, pointing out how crazy the other side is, how over the top they are, and that the writer is a sane guy trying to defend the sane people from the crazies, while tilting at windmills himself. Unless I'm missing out on a big part of this discussion, in which case I stand corrected.

    ..and I'm pretty sure you could find foreskin worship on the internet, I just think it's more rule 34 related than 'intactivist'.
    I said that I don't agree with the author. But I agree with the thrust (heh) of his article, which is that the anti-circumcision movement is nutty and prone to extremes. I don't think we see anyone out there demanding mandatory circumcisions.

    Except maybe in the Bible.

  20. #80
    Stingy DM Veldan Rath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    I said that I don't agree with the author. But I agree with the thrust (heh) of his article, which is that the anti-circumcision movement is nutty and prone to extremes. I don't think we see anyone out there demanding mandatory circumcisions.

    Except maybe in the Bible.
    So it's nutty and prone to extremes. You are acting like GGT like Flixy says.

    And no, no one is demanding mandatory circumcisions, but doing it in infancy is de facto mandatory circumcision.
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  21. #81
    I'm not sure we have the same definition of mandatory.

  22. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Flixy View Post
    You're aware that you're doing essentially the same as GGT dismissing the Republican party because of blog posts by some crazy teaparty fanatics?
    Hey, that's totally different!

    It's a fact that The Republican Party tent "hosts" Tea Party groups, right-wing religious extremists, neo-confederates, secessionists, anti-government conspiracy theorists, etc. They don't have the gumption to dissociate themselves from the "fanatics" in their ranks, because that's part of their donor base. FFS, they're the party that put up Sarah Palin for VP! They're the party that continues to think they lost '08 and '12 elections for not being Conservative enough!

    The 'intactivists' are a fanatical fringe group, too. But that's not why the American Academy of Pediatrics (or other medical societies/associations around the world) changed their stance on IMC, and deemed it medically unnecessary, with some vague consent/approval for cultural or religious reasons.

    That was a huge shift from the medical community that had previously recommended circumcision for every infant boy.

  23. #83
    Stingy DM Veldan Rath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    I'm not sure we have the same definition of mandatory.
    You are not gonna sideways yourself out of that Dread. You know exactly what I meant. Cutting off parts of your body cause the Invisible Man said so is one thing, but dictating (teehee) that it will happen to an infant is in effect making it mandatory for that child.
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  24. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    . Symbolically, male circumcision usually reflects our subjugation by (sorry, covenant with ) God.
    Gold

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    No, the reason is because, if you believe it's beneficial, you also realize that the likelihood of having the procedure done as an adult is relatively small.
    This line of argument has almost no merit. See Rand's girlfriends "ear piercings don't hurt as much on an infant" as an example. Furthermore, parents minority reporting a kids future actions should surely be left to something called "parenting" rather than, say, forcing a child to have a tattoo of Yaweh on her lower back to prevent her getting a tramp stamp (aka "Slag Tag") in her teens...

    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Yeah, no -- the big deal is what parents consent to for their kids, and the 'principles and values' that influence the medical community.
    Not letting doctors make our moral decisions for us is important. What do they know, after all? They are part of the same system. Plenty of them in the States will also be circumcised. The outrageously biased arguments seen even in this thread bear that out. Khen's analogy to a juggler being advised to wear gloves to receive 5% additional safety was a good example. Its not that they're wrong, as such...

    "Believing" that genital cutting is "beneficial" isn't based in modern medical science, though. Female circumcision is never done in infancy, but during genital maturation, between ages 5-14.
    This is an interesting fact. Is it more likely that this is due to the difficulty of doing the procedure or the maximalising of the lesson the girls are supposed to learn?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    Couldn't resist posting this. While I don't agree with his wholehearted endorsement of circumcision, I think he's hitting on something right with the tone of the "intactivists" and the weird foreskin worship in some corners of the Web.
    That article is great. It should be studied by anyone who wants to learn how to write an article completely and utterly divorced from the real world. I believe the showbiz term is a "hatchet job". I realise Slate is a bit of a joke of a website, but that one is almost Onion-esque. If that was posted here, you would have torn it to shreds, and for a small fee (a high five) I will do it for you.
    "Son," he said without preamble, "never trust a man who doesn't drink, because he's probably a self-righteous sort, a man who thinks he knows right from wrong all the time. Some of them are good men, but in the name of goodness, they cause most of the suffering in the world. They're the judges, the meddlers. And, son, never trust a man who drinks but refuses to get drunk. They're usually afraid of something deep down inside, either that they're a coward or a fool or mean and violent. You can't trust a man who's afraid of himself. But sometimes, son, you can trust a man who occasionally kneels before a toilet. The chances are that he is learning something about humility and his natural human foolishness, about how to survive himself. It's damned hard for a man to take himself too seriously when he's heaving his guts into a dirty toilet bowl.

  25. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Veldan Rath View Post
    You are not gonna sideways yourself out of that Dread. You know exactly what I meant. Cutting off parts of your body cause the Invisible Man said so is one thing, but dictating (teehee) that it will happen to an infant is in effect making it mandatory for that child.
    Uh, no. Mandatory is not a synonym for an individual not having a choice as to what is done to them. It shares roots with "mandate" for a reason. There is no such thing as a literal mandate (or dictat) from parents, it's a metaphor at best, and one that is very ill-suited to this context.
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  26. #86
    Stingy DM Veldan Rath's Avatar
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    I am a firm believer that words do have meaning, and I will gladly agree that how I was applying the word was looser than I would like. However, Dread was laying a false argument that 'No one was making circumcision mandatory' when that was not the argument being made by anyone here.

    But again the actual discussion gets set aside for point scoring. Carry on.
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  27. #87
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    There's a religious mandate, though. We had this discussion over here in Germany and a Jewish religious leader stated, and I quote: "Banning the circumcisions of infants is the same as a ban on Jewish religion!"

    The guy even was so dumb as to invoke the 3rd Reich and the Holocaust.

    So much for it "not being mandatory".
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  28. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Spawnie View Post
    This line of argument has almost no merit. See Rand's girlfriends "ear piercings don't hurt as much on an infant" as an example. Furthermore, parents minority reporting a kids future actions should surely be left to something called "parenting" rather than, say, forcing a child to have a tattoo of Yaweh on her lower back to prevent her getting a tramp stamp (aka "Slag Tag") in her teens...
    [...]
    That article is great. It should be studied by anyone who wants to learn how to write an article completely and utterly divorced from the real world. I believe the showbiz term is a "hatchet job". I realise Slate is a bit of a joke of a website, but that one is almost Onion-esque. If that was posted here, you would have torn it to shreds, and for a small fee (a high five) I will do it for you.
    If this was akin to ear piercing I don't think it would be so controversial.

    Also I'm not sure you are understanding the point of why I posted it (and that I disagree with one of the top-level conclusions of the article).

    Quote Originally Posted by Veldan Rath View Post
    I am a firm believer that words do have meaning, and I will gladly agree that how I was applying the word was looser than I would like. However, Dread was laying a false argument that 'No one was making circumcision mandatory' when that was not the argument being made by anyone here.

    But again the actual discussion gets set aside for point scoring. Carry on.
    The argument is that the people who want the state to ban circumcision are possibly so over-the-top that, to someone who isn't an extremist, they may seem as crazy as crazy as a group of people who would want to have the state force everyone to get circumcised.

  29. #89
    Spawnie! Please visit more often, I've missed ya.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spawnie View Post
    Not letting doctors make our moral decisions for us is important. What do they know, after all? They are part of the same system. Plenty of them in the States will also be circumcised. The outrageously biased arguments seen even in this thread bear that out. Khen's analogy to a juggler being advised to wear gloves to receive 5% additional safety was a good example. Its not that they're wrong, as such...

    This is an interesting fact. Is it more likely that this is due to the difficulty of doing the procedure or the maximalising of the lesson the girls are supposed to learn?
    I think IMC was perpetuated as "routine", long after medical rationale was thin or contrary, for a couple of reasons. First, the medical community was dominated by men until the mid 20th century. Secondly, because many of those male physicians were circumsized as infants themselves.

    It became accepted as a "norm" after the WWI era, when the military was trying to keep soldiers healthy, and being hygienic was practically an obsession. It was thought that men in the trenches of Warfare wouldn't be able to keep their foreskins clean, leading to UTIs and stressing their kidneys (that were already stressed with dehydration). Later, it was seen as a way to protect soldiers from STDs (and the 'enemy' women they might have sex with).

    Female circumcision has its own weird origins, based on debunked medical myths of "hygiene" or sexual behavior. It would be very difficult to perform on an infant girl whose genitals are engorged from maternal hormones.....but I do think they wait until she's old enough to learn a lesson, feel the pain, and experience the humiliation. FGM has the despicable goal of teaching girls to hate their genitalia, because if men like them too much....they could be incited to become fornicators, adulterers, or rapists.

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