That whole #metoo thing

[Aimless]

You may be right that the experiences of straight men differ from those of women, you'd be well advised to not think the same about the experiences of gay men. Aside from hardcore sexual abuse I can easily match up with the most common #metoo's blow by blow. Grab them by the pussy? Try being touched up in the middle of a street by a complete stranger who you didn't invite in any way concievable to do so. If you want to drag your net of 'sexual harassment as wide as the bulk of the recent #metoo-ers are throwing it, you have zero reason to negate the actions I was subjected to on the mere basis of my gender.

You may have been openly gay for most of your life but the typical gay man spends most of his life looking like a straight boy and then a straight man, surrounded mostly by other straight men and women. The experiences are not comparable. For every time you've been grabbed a woman whose life is otherwise similar to yours is likely to have been grabbed several times, in addition to the constant low-grade harassment and violations women are subjected to from puberty onwards. Even if that weren't the case, there is no reason why your personal feelings about constant harassment should be regarded as the ideal norm. I strongly urge you to reconsider this RBian approach to social problems (ie. one based mostly on your personal subjective experiences, anecdata, personal quirks and naive silver-bullet solutions based on the power of positive thinking).

You keep repeating the claim that the experiences described by women are trivial. As I posted in the other thread, this is not a fair characterization of the experiences described by the women in my social media networks. If nothing else this should encourage some caution.

[Hazir]

You may have been openly gay for most of your life but the typical gay man spends most of his life looking like a straight boy and then a straight man, surrounded mostly by other straight men and women. The experiences are not comparable. For every time you've been grabbed a woman whose life is otherwise similar to yours is likely to have been grabbed several times, in addition to the constant low-grade harassment and violations women are subjected to from puberty onwards. Even if that weren't the case, there is no reason why your personal feelings about constant harassment should be regarded as the ideal norm. I strongly urge you to reconsider this RBian approach to social problems (ie. one based mostly on your personal subjective experiences, anecdata, personal quirks and naive silver-bullet solutions based on the power of positive thinking).

You keep repeating the claim that the experiences described by women are trivial. As I posted in the other thread, this is not a fair characterization of the experiences described by the women in my social media networks. If nothing else this should encourage some caution.

You are mistaken. That whole low level thing starts early and it only lets off when you get old enough to no longer be desirable. If you think that 'looking like a man' protects you you need to think again. Predators also have zero difficulty spotting potential prey. Otherwise I'm not going to up the ante for the sake of this discussion; I have exposed enough of my personal trauma's. Come to think of it, maybe that is what irks me. The trivialization of sexual abuse by women who fancy being traumatized by having been whistled at 20 years ago.

[LittleFuzzy]

You may have been openly gay for most of your life but the typical gay man spends most of his life looking like a straight boy and then a straight man, surrounded mostly by other straight men and women.

I would strongly suggest that you don't presume to lecture us about what the "typical gay man" experiences growing up or through most of their life, hetero. You just did EXACTLY what you accuse Hazir of doing.

[Aimless]

I would strongly suggest that you don't presume to lecture us about what the "typical gay man" experiences growing up or through most of their life, hetero. You just did EXACTLY what you accuse Hazir of doing.

Yes, yes I did. It was a mistake to fall into that trap.

[Hazir]

Yes, yes I did. It was a mistake to fall into that trap.

It wasn't a trap, it was a hole you dug yourself, then jumped in.

And again; I didn't make myself a role model or a yard stick; I said that we should be careful before we treat everything in the same way getting us an outcome nobody is better off with. You on the other hand, took an absolutist position, and in the process were dismissive of exactly the same experiences you demand I recognize as serious examples of sexual harassment.

You, Aimless, are part of the problem but trying to make us believe you are part of the solution.

[Enoch the Red]

It wasn't a trap, it was a hole you dug yourself, then jumped in.

And again; I didn't make myself a role model or a yard stick; I said that we should be careful before we treat everything in the same way getting us an outcome nobody is better off with. You on the other hand, took an absolutist position, and in the process were dismissive of exactly the same experiences you demand I recognize as serious examples of sexual harassment.

You, Aimless, are part of the problem but trying to make us believe you are part of the solution.

I know it is far more rhetorically pleasing to paint Aimless as part of the problem, and I know it's hard to listen to the better angels of our nature on this board, but let's be honest here. Aimless, if his real life persona is anything like the one he presents here, (and I have no reason to believe it is not) is not part of the problem. He in all likelihood is thoughtful, kind, and considerate of those he encounters on a day to day basis. He may not approach this issue by the same tack that you would, and you may differ on the best way to deal with this problem, but he is hardly groping strangers, or otherwise enabling misbehavior.

[Aimless]

I know it is far more rhetorically pleasing to paint Aimless as part of the problem, and I know it's hard to listen to the better angels of our nature on this board, but let's be honest here. Aimless, if his real life persona is anything like the one he presents here, (and I have no reason to believe it is not) is not part of the problem. He in all likelihood is thoughtful, kind, and considerate of those he encounters on a day to day basis. He may not approach this issue by the same tack that you would, and you may differ on the best way to deal with this problem, but he is hardly groping strangers, or otherwise enabling misbehavior.

I only grope myself, and never in public, but Hazir's and Fuzzy's criticism of those parts of my posts is not without merit. My intentions notwithstanding, it's not unreasonable to interpret my posts as being dismissive of someone's personal experiences with trauma, based on gender-related presumptions etc. In theory, a case can be made for either view--see many more-or-less toxic internal debates within LGBTQ+ community about who has the roughest go of it--but it wasn't appropriate in this discussion and I was wrong to take that approach and especially wrong to be so dismissive.

[Hazir]

I know it is far more rhetorically pleasing to paint Aimless as part of the problem, and I know it's hard to listen to the better angels of our nature on this board, but let's be honest here. Aimless, if his real life persona is anything like the one he presents here, (and I have no reason to believe it is not) is not part of the problem. He in all likelihood is thoughtful, kind, and considerate of those he encounters on a day to day basis. He may not approach this issue by the same tack that you would, and you may differ on the best way to deal with this problem, but he is hardly groping strangers, or otherwise enabling misbehavior.

Ah right, so now we are going to talk as if only the Weinsteins of this world are the problem? You don't actually have to grab someone in the crotch to be part of the problem.

[Enoch the Red]

Ah right, so now we are going to talk as if only the Weinsteins of this world are the problem? You don't actually have to grab someone in the crotch to be part of the problem.

So, perhaps you can illuminate me. How is Aimless part of the problem?

I only grope myself, and never in public, but Hazir's and Fuzzy's criticism of those parts of my posts is not without merit. My intentions notwithstanding, it's not unreasonable to interpret my posts as being dismissive of someone's personal experiences with trauma, based on gender-related presumptions etc. In theory, a case can be made for either view--see many more-or-less toxic internal debates within LGBTQ+ community about who has the roughest go of it--but it wasn't appropriate in this discussion and I was wrong to take that approach and especially wrong to be so dismissive.

Someone can be wrong, even dismissive, and still not be part of the problem.

[Aimless]

It wasn't a trap, it was a hole you dug yourself, then jumped in.

And again; I didn't make myself a role model or a yard stick; I said that we should be careful before we treat everything in the same way getting us an outcome nobody is better off with. You on the other hand, took an absolutist position, and in the process were dismissive of exactly the same experiences you demand I recognize as serious examples of sexual harassment.

You, Aimless, are part of the problem but trying to make us believe you are part of the solution.

I'm sorry but remain skeptical of your dismissal of other people's experiences. Your characterization of their accounts remains as wrong now as it was when you started this thread. You can continue to preach your "suck it up" advice to victims/survivors where you can find them, it's no business of mine. If you're willing to acknowledge that the stories shared under #metoo are legit then obviously you should have no problems withdrawing from your initial position, regardless of how annoyed you were by my later posts. If you're not willing to acknowledge that, then obviously you don't have a leg to stand on when you criticize me for not taking sufficient care in responding to your posts. Do you now acknowledge the #metoo stories as being legit or don't you? You can't have it both ways. I can't help but find it curious that you accuse me of taking an absolutist position while bringing extremism and hyperbole to the table, but this is obviously nothing new.

[Hazir]

I'm sorry but remain skeptical of your dismissal of other people's experiences. Your characterization of their accounts remains as wrong now as it was when you started this thread. You can continue to preach your "suck it up" advice to victims/survivors where you can find them, it's no business of mine. If you're willing to acknowledge that the stories shared under #metoo are legit then obviously you should have no problems withdrawing from your initial position, regardless of how annoyed you were by my later posts. If you're not willing to acknowledge that, then obviously you don't have a leg to stand on when you criticize me for not taking sufficient care in responding to your posts. Do you now acknowledge the #metoo stories as being legit or don't you? You can't have it both ways. I can't help but find it curious that you accuse me of taking an absolutist position while bringing extremism and hyperbole to the table, but this is obviously nothing new.

No buddy, you lost your credibility the moment when you started to tell me why my experiences didn't count in a a discourse about the validation of people's personal experiences.

[Aimless]

No buddy, you lost your credibility the moment when you started to tell me why my experiences didn't count in a a discourse about the validation of people's personal experiences.

So long as you attempt to use your experiences to dismiss other people's experiences, you will be wrong. No matter how wrong or reprehensible or otherwise deficient I turn out to be, this fact will not change. What you do with that fact is entirely up to you.