Beer: The Gateway to Addiction!

[GGT]

Well, at least that's what the road signs used to say in the midwest back in the 70's. Sponsored by the Women's Christian Temperance Union, if memory serves correctly. So I looked them up:

But the group has not turned away from its original mission of preaching about the ills of alcohol and other social problems. And it says it is gaining respect and winning new converts these days as a new mood of temperance sweeps the country. #50,000 Members Worldwide ''We were the first 'Just Say No' people,'' said Mrs. Kelly, who was a little disappointed with the plan to fight drug use that was announced last week by President Bush.

''He didn't say anything at all about the most potent drug of all,'' said Mrs. Kelly, walking past an oil painting titled ''Demon Rum'' outside her office.

That's from 1989. http://www.nytimes.com/1989/09/14/us...pagewanted=all


Now, regarding today's focus on risk management, taxing unhealthy vices, arguing about health care, insurance premiums, and legislating behavior (like bans on smoking in parks and beaches ) we've gotta come full circle to the booze part.

Can a bigger booze tax reduce disease, crime?

By Carina Storrs, Health.com
September 24, 2010


(Health.com) -- Alcohol abuse is the third leading cause of preventable death in the U.S., and it contributes to countless diseases, car crashes, injuries, and crimes.

How can we solve these thorny problems? Making booze more expensive might be a good start, a new study suggests.

Doubling the current state taxes on alcohol -- which would tack on as much as 50 cents to the price of the average six-pack or bottle of wine -- could be expected to reduce alcohol-related deaths by 35 percent, fatal car crashes by 11 percent, and the rates of sexually transmitted disease by 6 percent, according to the study.

Higher taxes on booze would also lead to 2 percent less violence and 1.4 percent less crime, the researchers estimate.

.....


Even a slight decrease in drinking could have a large impact on public health. If millions of people living in an area consumed half a drink less per week, on average, the small differences in alcohol intake -- and intoxication -- could lead to big drops in the area's overall injury and death rates, Wagenaar says.

There is some evidence that raising taxes can reduce unhealthy behaviors, even for people who are addicts. Increased taxes on cigarettes and other tobacco products have been shown to reduce smoking rates and influence heavy smokers to cut back or quit.

continued @ http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/09/24....html?hpt=Sbin



* Would you pay a 50% higher tax on booze?
* Should insurers ask about drinking habits and rate premiums accordingly?
* Should booze be banned on all public property, including parks and beaches?
* How do we prevent pensioners from whacking a Hell's Angel with their cane, after drinking all day in a pub?

[Being]

Or...we can be like the Russians and subsidize liquor for the poor.

[GGT]

We already do, to an extent. At least according to those who complain about "All those welfare folks using food stamps to buy food, but they can pay cash for booze!".

[Nessus]

It's pretty much a fact that Finns would drink themselves to death in large numbers (see Russia) without heavy alcohol taxes. So our gummint just dances on the fine line between the highest possible alkie tax, and people going to Estonia to buy truck-loads of booze every weekend.

I'm looking forward to Dread's explanation about why alkie tax is bad, too, though.

[GGT]

I'm waiting for Rand's reply.

Besides our ridiculous Commonwealth booze laws I'd support a 50% tax hike. Especially if it funded public transportation, or mental health care for addictions. Something like that.

I'd tax booze even higher when served in bars and restaurants that aren't on a bus or train line. Like clubs or bars in suburban sprawl areas that practically beg people to drink and drive. Or they stay open until 2am but public transit stops at midnight. I know that Designated Driver thing is pushed, but I'm not convinced it's used very often or that it works.

[GGT]

Since I'm the only member on-line this late, it's okay to double post, right?

Nessie and Rand made me wonder, but this is To Everyone: what does your country do about pregnant drinkers?

It's one thing to see an obviously pregnant woman drinking in a bar, I suppose a bartender could just refuse them service. But what if she's having a glass of wine with dinner in a restaurant, because she's otherwise quite healthy and only drinks on occasion, and her doctor says it's fine? Would the waiter still intervene? Should they?

It's another thing to see pregnant women buying booze that could be for other people. But maybe they're buying to drink at home, and not just an occasional glass of wine but a whole bottle, to binge.

Soooo.....who gets to be the "booze police"? In the interests of unborn child, young impressionable children, and all that. Using the same arguments from the smoking thread.....When is drinking considered child abuse?



EDIT:

But would you agree that drinking in front of a child is more comparable to a child watching his parents smoke (say, outside) while not inhaling the smoke? And that smoking with the children in the same room is more comparable to letting them drink some alcohol? Of course the argument still somewhat stands since most people don't have a problem with parents letting their kids sip on a wine or beer (although at older ages, not with babies).

And the start of the thread, smoking while pregnant, can be compared to drinking alcohol while pregnant, which also leads to a higher risk of birth defects.

Copied from the smoking thread, attributed to Flixy.

'Most people' in my community frown on letting 'kids' have sips of beer or wine. Even diluting wine on special occasions for a 16 yr old. Even letting 19 yr olds drink a glass of champagne at a wedding toast. Remember, our legal drinking age is 21. That means most college students and young military can't legally drink. But they can enlist in the military, and legally buy cigarettes at age 18.

As for being pregnant and having kids, there's no age minimum for that.

[oldmunchkin]

IIRC, Wyoming has one of the lowest beer and liquor taxes in the country. (Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong!) When they raised it a tiny bit a couple years ago, I think the price of beer and a drink went up a whopping $.25 cents a piece! We really didn't notice the change much in BFE, but some of the bigger towns it was more noticeable. In Casper, they have something called the Tipsy Taxi,* that is funded in part by the city, the county, the whine-tit groups, and the bars/clubs. If you have too much to drink, you can get anywhere in Casper, Evansville, and Mills for free. Plus, someone will come get you the next morning and take you back to your car. It has substantially cut down on drunk driving...even to the point that the police department is complaining about it taking away DUI revenue! If that doesn't tell you that police departments are using DUI's as a way to fund their departments, I don't know what does. (Yes, that's another thread entirely. Maybe someday, when I am feeling like an argument, I'll start that one!)

As for pregnant women drinking, I really don't know the answer. Is it child abuse to have one drink, either with dinner or on a rare occasion? I really don't think so. Is it child abuse for a very visibly pregnant woman to be drinking heavily in the bar, every day? Probably. We all know what FAS is and how it effects children. I know that some women are told to have a drink or glass of wine, sometimes daily, due to certain medical conditions, even when pregnant. I also know there are women out there like I was. As a disclaimer: I don't like tequila in any form! But, when I was pregnant with The Kid, I used to crave tequila. I would wake up at night tasting it in my imagination! I would go to the bar to play pool (drinking pepsi) and drool at the tequila bottles! I finally told my doctor, and he told me when I got like that, go have a shot! It seemed to him to be better to have a shot once in a while, than to get to the point I went a bought a bottle and drink the whole thing at once. I think I had maybe one shot a week for the last two months I was pregnant. That was it! Did I abuse The Kid? I don't think so. If I had drank a bottle a week, probably yes that would have constituted abuse.

Who should police the pregnant women? Like was said in the other thread, should we maybe lock them in some kind of facility for their entire pregnancies, just to ensure they do nothing that society considers bad for the unborn child? It shouldn't be up to the waiter, bartender, cocktail waitress, liquor store clerk, to have to make decisions for the woman.

*http://trib.com/news/updates/article...cc4c03286.html

[GGT]

.....even to the point that the police department is complaining about it taking away DUI revenue! If that doesn't tell you that police departments are using DUI's as a way to fund their departments, I don't know what does. (Yes, that's another thread entirely. Maybe someday, when I am feeling like an argument, I'll start that one!)

I agree that it's one of those bizarre paradoxical things. Like towns that want people driving in to boost commerce, but don't provide enough parking spots, so they end up paying a Parking Ticket Police Person to go around putting parking fines on windshields. Then they can't figure out why people don't drive to town to visit their shops and businesses.

Who should police the pregnant women?.....snip

I don't know the answer either.

Some people might jump on your physician for saying it's okay to take a shot of tequila once a week for two months. But would they jump on your physician for prescribing steroids for the duration of pregnancy (as is often done for women with auto-immune disorders)? Probably not, even though steroids can do a lot of harm to both mother and fetus. Would they jump on a physician who recommended Nicotine patches instead of smoking cigarettes? Probably not, even though the neurotoxin in a patch is harder to regulate than smoking a couple of cigarettes.

Seems we've entered a strange world, where people think outcomes can be geared toward utopia, with just the right kind of law.

[oldmunchkin]

I agree that it's one of those bizarre paradoxical things. Like towns that want people driving in to boost commerce, but don't provide enough parking spots, so they end up paying a Parking Ticket Police Person to go around putting parking fines on windshields. Then they can't figure out why people don't drive to town to visit their shops and businesses.

Unfortunately, you are right! "They" say you will get picked up for drinking and driving, so when you do the sensible thing and walk home, "they" give you a ticket for public intoxication, even if you are just quietly walking along, minding your own business, and not staggering all over the street or singing endless verses of Danny Boy! "They" say you should have a designated driver, so you get someone to stay completely sober to drive everyone home. Then, "they" pull the DD over and harass him/her about something trivial. "They" say, "call someone sober to come get you if you are drunk", then "they" treat them like a criminal for going into the bar to get you. "They" say, "get a taxi instead of driving", then "they" bitch because their department is running short on money because they aren't getting enough DUI's! Let's face it..."they" are never gonna be happy, no matter what drinkers do, until people like MADD and whatnot get their way...prohibition! And we all know how well that worked out last time!

I don't know the answer either.

Some people might jump on your physician for saying it's okay to take a shot of tequila once a week for two months. But would they jump on your physician for prescribing steroids for the duration of pregnancy (as is often done for women with auto-immune disorders)? Probably not, even though steroids can do a lot of harm to both mother and fetus. Would they jump on a physician who recommended Nicotine patches instead of smoking cigarettes? Probably not, even though the neurotoxin in a patch is harder to regulate than smoking a couple of cigarettes.

Seems we've entered a strange world, where people think outcomes can be geared toward utopia, with just the right kind of law.

While I think women should be prosecuted if a child is born drug addicted or with FAS, I see no way to police it before birth. I do not think women should be forced to undergo prenatal drug or alcohol testing (unless they have already had a child born addicted) but I am afraid that's what it's going to come to. I can't remember where, but some state back east already tried to legislate prenatal drug and alcohol testing. IIRC, there was a huge public outcry about it tho. MADD and the fanatical part of pro-life groups and some other group(s) thought this was just the thing to do. The state Supreme Court shot the idea down as unconstitutional. I think it fell under the 4th Amendment Rights, but I'm not sure.

I am sure some people would think my doctor was a quack! He allowed me those shots, he told me to cut down my smoking, but not to quit while I was pregnant! See, nicotine is some kind of topical numbing agent, and my teeth were almost completely rotten. He told me the pain meds he would have to prescribe for me would be worse for me and the fetus than 10 or less cigarettes per day. I cut down to around 5 per day. I didn't go back to smoking a pack a day until The Kid was about a year old!

For some reason, people seem to think that every social ill can be cured by enacting a law against it. Unfortunately, as has been proven thru things like prohibition and the war on drugs, laws don't cure the ills, they just seem to add more problems.

[Aimless]

I think it's about damned time the price of alcohol began to properly reflect the costs of alcohol. Every single city in this country is a mess the first saturday after pay-day, due to alcohol and the Swedish propensity for binge-drinking. I don't what the solution is, but if increased taxation can help then I'm for it. Make it only available to middle-class women with careers. Sod liberty

[EyeKhan]

In Michigan we have road signs that say "Buzzed driving is drunk driving." My gateway drug was soda pop. Now I'm a caffeine addict of the highest order.

[EyeKhan]

I'm looking forward to Dread's explanation about why alkie tax is bad, too, though.

Because its a gun to my head tax on Freedom dammit. COME on!

[GGT]

I think it's about damned time the price of alcohol began to properly reflect the costs of alcohol. Every single city in this country is a mess the first saturday after pay-day, due to alcohol and the Swedish propensity for binge-drinking. I don't what the solution is, but if increased taxation can help then I'm for it. Make it only available to middle-class women with careers. Sod liberty

You meant making booze tax-free only for middle-class women with careers and children?

In Michigan we have road signs that say "Buzzed driving is drunk driving." My gateway drug was soda pop. Now I'm a caffeine addict of the highest order.

Yet you drive with a caffeine buzz. Probably trying to listen to NPR and read your Blackberry, eating a whole wheat bagel with soy cream cheese, sipping on your piping hot politically correct coffee in a foam cup with paper sleeve, while dodging traffic, all at the same time.

HONK!

[Khendraja'aro]

It's pretty much a fact that Finns would drink themselves to death in large numbers (see Russia) without heavy alcohol taxes. So our gummint just dances on the fine line between the highest possible alkie tax, and people going to Estonia to buy truck-loads of booze every weekend.

I'm looking forward to Dread's explanation about why alkie tax is bad, too, though.

Yeah, when we visited Finland, we usually joked that Finns are "All In"-drinkers. Either they're completely hammered or they drink nothing at all.

Which goes nicely with the Viking definition of being drunk: If you still can lie on the floor without having to grab hold of something, then you're not really drunk.

[EyeKhan]

Yet you drive with a caffeine buzz. Probably trying to listen to NPR and read talk on your Blackberry, eating a whole wheat bagel with soy cream cheese, no cream cheese sipping on your piping hot politically correct coffee in a foam paper cup with paper card stock sleeve, while dodging traffic, all at the same time.

HONK!

There, fixed. Mostly; not sure the coffee is PC and certainly not if it were foam.

[GGT]

There, fixed. Mostly; not sure the coffee is PC and certainly not if it were foam.

I know you, you're a Bobo! You probably obsess about whether your kitchen counters are soapstone or granite, or a man-made composite. Whether your multi-spray shower head nozzle is a water saver. Or if it's best to hire Pedro to do your lawn work, if he uses a push mower and bags clippings to drag to the compost heap, vs Michael with his mulching mower that comes with a big honking V-8 truck.

[LittleFuzzy]

Adding 50 cents to the price of the average six-pack is expected to reduce alcohol-related deaths by 35%? Uh-huh. Just who did that study, and how stoned were they?

[GGT]

Yeah, I wondered if the article was incorrect in its numbers. But since I'm a diet coke freak, I figured they meant 50 cents per bottle, not per six pack. I'd pay a dollar more for my diet coke fix in a suitcase, but not half a dollar more for a single can from a vending machine.

[EyeKhan]

I know you, you're a Bobo! You probably obsess about whether your kitchen counters are soapstone or granite, or a man-made composite.

Granite, though when we had our bathroom re-done the counter lady tried to sell us the composite as lower maintenance (and higher price, of course). I've never heard of soapstone counters. That's a pretty soft stone, seems like it would break easily.

Whether your multi-spray shower head nozzle is a water saver.

#1. All shower heads are water savers; its the law. #2. Multi-spray heads are vulgar and useless. I have a rain shower head.

Or if it's best to hire Pedro to do your lawn work, if he uses a push mower and bags clippings to drag to the compost heap, vs Michael with his mulching mower that comes with a big honking V-8 truck.

Vince, actually. He's local, he's legal, and grass catching is bad for the lawn. You want the clippings to stay where they're cut - reduces the need to fertilize. And I doubt the association allows composting.

[GGT]

You are definitely a BOBO.

[Flixy]

* Would you pay a 50% higher tax on booze?
* Should insurers ask about drinking habits and rate premiums accordingly?

* Yes. I'd probably drink less too, since I generally go out with a fixed amount of cash, and when I'm out of cash, I'm done drinking.
* No, they'd have to know all your living habits (exercising, smoking, drinking ,eating), and I like my privacy.

[EyeKhan]

You are definitely a BOBO.

What is it with people and labels?

[Dreadnaught]

It's pretty much a fact that Finns would drink themselves to death in large numbers (see Russia) without heavy alcohol taxes. So our gummint just dances on the fine line between the highest possible alkie tax, and people going to Estonia to buy truck-loads of booze every weekend.

I'm looking forward to Dread's explanation about why alkie tax is bad, too, though.

If they want to tax alcohol consumption I don't have any objective problem with that.

But I'm curious at how alcoholism is allegedly so embedded in your culture. Can you elaborate on that? I'm curious.

[Nessus]

If they want to tax alcohol consumption I don't have any objective problem with that.

But I'm curious at how alcoholism is allegedly so embedded in your culture. Can you elaborate on that? I'm curious.

I think we've talked about that before, but I'm not sure. (Because of all the booze, see?) It just is what it is. The State tries to keep alcohol-induced deaths to a minimum, some years it succeeds, others not so much. I don't know how to elaborate on it, really.

[Timbuk2]

It's a cultural fing, innit, with you nigh arctic circle types.

~

Meanwhile, in Russia, a drunk gets breathalyzed ...

[Dreadnaught]

So when the earth warms and most people flee north, will we all become drinkers or will the natives remain the alcoholic locals, discernable due to their pale skin and liquor-heavy breath?

[EyeKhan]

So when the earth warms and most people flee north, will we all become drinkers or will the natives remain the alcoholic locals, discernable due to their pale skin and liquor-heavy breath?

The north won't be cold anymore, so no.

[Nessus]

So when the earth warms and most people flee north, will we all become drinkers or will the natives remain the alcoholic locals, discernable due to their pale skin and liquor-heavy breath?

Given the democidal nature of world-wars, I suspect the winners of that conflict will all be alcoholics just to cope with the trauma. It's not exactly pleasant to mow people down with machine guns.

[Aimless]

The nordic countries have a culture of binge-drinking, perhaps because of the harsh climate and the tough living.

[EyeKhan]

It's not exactly pleasant to mow people down with machine guns.

You haven't been watching the right Hollywood films. Clearly.