Will Catalonia go it alone?

[Aimless]

I believe you guys are misrepresenting international view on right to unilaterally secede.

[LittleFuzzy]

I believe you guys are misrepresenting international view on right to unilaterally secede.

Again, right now the only unilateral thing we're talking about is a referendum. If discontent with membership is high enough that there are repeated, strongly supported calls for independence and if there is a a vote with proper turn-out which makes a majority desire for that independence clear and the standing government's response is just "screw you, we're gonna criminally prosecute people for trying" then there is a SERIOUS problem and self-determination (which I've said before is a peremptory norm, a principle in international law which allows no derogation, which overrides sovereignty) absolutely does come into play.

[Loki]

Again, right now the only unilateral thing we're talking about is a referendum. If discontent with membership is high enough that there are repeated, strongly supported calls for independence and if there is a a vote with proper turn-out which makes a majority desire for that independence clear and the standing government's response is just "screw you, we're gonna criminally prosecute people for trying" then there is a SERIOUS problem and self-determination (which I've said before is a peremptory norm, a principle in international law which allows no derogation, which overrides sovereignty) absolutely does come into play.

Except this referendum violates the Spanish constitution and has been ruled illegal by Spanish courts. You're saying that your morality takes precedence over the Spanish rule of law.

[Aimless]

Again, right now the only unilateral thing we're talking about is a referendum.

Afaict from the posts on page 1, we are discussing both the right to hold a referendum as well as the broader issues arising from secession based on the right to self-determination.

If discontent with membership is high enough that there are repeated, strongly supported calls for independence and if there is a a vote with proper turn-out which makes a majority desire for that independence clear and the standing government's response is just "screw you, we're gonna criminally prosecute people for trying" then there is a SERIOUS problem

Perhaps, perhaps not. If it's done in a way that violates a nation's laws, then one has to first consider whether or not those laws are legitimate, and in this case I don't believe it's straightforward.

and self-determination (which I've said before is a peremptory norm, a principle in international law which allows no derogation, which overrides sovereignty) absolutely does come into play.

You have said that and I have found little to support that categorical assertion. What I have found are numerous discussions demonstrating controversy and uncertainty wrt the status of that right in relation to territorial integrity. Whereas jurists may now recognize the right to self-determination as having risen to the status of jus cogens, in practice this right has often or usually been ranked below nations' right to territorial integrity. International law is constantly evolving and no doubt we will one day come to a point where your claim will be undeniably true, but recent history is replete with examples of self-declared nations who have not been recognized by the international community. Decolonization represents a special case, and exceptions have been made in cases where the people seeking the right to govern themselves are attempting to free themselves from a nation that violates other established norms/laws eg. through egregious violations of human rights in the form of torture etc. But even then it's not as simple as you make it out to be, whether you look at rulings or just consider reality. As much as I look forward to there one day being a free and sovereign Palestinian state for example, I suspect that's not going to happen in my lifetime barring intervention from extraterrestrials.