General discussion about efficient laundry

[Aimless]

Is a Google search your "default" for buying a laundry appliance? How's that work?

Well it's working better than a GGT search so far but perhaps you could just link to complaints or quote some in full (ones you haven't written yourself I mean). If you're claiming that these are common widespread complaints then surely you have evidence for that claim. I tried to find evidence for your claim but could not find such evidence despite using one of the best tools humanity has ever had for finding common widespread complaints. Perhaps it's because I suck at searching! Since you already know what you're looking for and where to look, you should have a far easier time of it.

By the sound of it you may be thinking of dedicated review sites, but which ones? Which specific complaints?

[GGT]

Well it's working better than a GGT search so far but perhaps you could just link to complaints or quote some in full (ones you haven't written yourself I mean). If you're claiming that these are common widespread complaints then surely you have evidence for that claim. I tried to find evidence for your claim but could not find such evidence despite using one of the best tools humanity has ever had for finding common widespread complaints. Perhaps it's because I suck at searching! Since you already know what you're looking for and where to look, you should have a far easier time of it.

By the sound of it you may be thinking of dedicated review sites, but which ones? Which specific complaints?

Sure -- just go to sites like Sears, Best Buy, Lowe's, Home Depot to "shop" washing machines and read customer reviews/ratings. I had already decided to go back to a top-load washer, and compared highly rated with low rated machines -- that's where I found the complaints about dumping tub water. Consumer Reports has appliance reviews, too (most are about front-load mildew odors, and gasket seals cracking like mine did -- but also complaints about new top-load tubs that are too deep).

Then I visited 3 distributors who do appliance service/repair (one was Maytag dedicated). They confirmed the design "flaw", and said they hoped manufacturers would fix it -- because they'd get service calls from folks thinking their machine was borked somehow -- and didn't like paying $75 to learn the machine was designed that way.

Look, I'm just saying that top-load machines are still popular in the US, the industry continues to make new models, and categorizes them as "HE" saving water/energy even when they don't. The people who buy them are often surprised and disappointed, something I learned from reading lots of consumer comments and talking with service techs. This whole thing about adding/removing stuff mid-cycle isn't even that important -- it's just something I like to do -- when the problem is the machine re-setting itself and dumping water when it doesn't need to!

Yeah, it's a design flaw. It happens, the industry isn't perfect, and sometimes they roll out "newly engineered" products with faults. Just like first-generation low-flush toilets....that ended up with poor consumer reviews because people needed to flush 2 or 3 times to empty solids from the bowl....and used more water than their old toilets.

[GGT]

Come to think of it....this thread doesn't need to be limited to "efficient" laundry, or washing machines, but could apply to any water-using appliance or device. Toilets, faucets, shower heads, ice machines, fridge/freezers, dishwashers, even outdoor water hoses.

If the goal is to use less water, and have more "efficient" devices or appliances....that can be done without sacrificing consumer needs or desires. If someone wants to wash their car in the driveway, it can be done just as efficiently as an automated car wash if they use pressurized water with hand-held triggers. If someone wants to take a 30 minute hot shower, it can be done with aerated nozzles using just a few gallons of water, without emptying a 50 gallon hot water holding tank.

In other words, modern technology can be designed in ways that help the consumer consume less, without being noticed, or being a pain in the ass. It's counter-productive when an industry tries to force conservation methods that backfire.

[Khendraja'aro]

GGT, just link actual complaints.

Again, either put up or shut up.

[Dreadnaught]

Hang on, if you have to add things mid-cycle, and the machine empties the tub so you can do that, doesn't it make sense for it to start over from the beginning, ie. a new cycle? That way, problems associated with putting poop with your laundry are mitigated as much as poop can be mitigated.

If you're even somewhat sensible and don't have a ridiculous TV-show parody of a household you can probably avoid surprises that necessitate mid-cycle interruptions by only washing late in the evening or early in the morning when people are or have been sleeping and the teenagers are safely drugged. That way there will be relatively few occasions on which you'll have to interrupt your laundry. The total water waste will be low (spread out over hundreds of cycles) and your hygiene-issues will be avoided at a low cost.

I can readily concede that top-loaders may have various advantages but this mid-cycle washing nonsense does not strike me as being one possible advantage.

I agree. I mean, it's sort of like those refrigerators that have no doors. Sure, it's convenient...but massively inefficient.

But I generally do believe laundry is one of those things whose energy-efficiency is dramatically improved with planning and upfront investment in clothes.

[GGT]

GGT, just link actual complaints.

Again, either put up or shut up.

I didn't 'save' my search results. Why would I do that? I'm not inclined to repeat the process, just to appease you. Why would I do that?

I was simply looking to buy a top-load washing machine that met my personal preferences, within my budget, that wasn't a water guzzler. The new "HE" models priced at $1,000 didn't fit the bill. I'm quite happy with my $225 used appliance that doesn't have all the bells and whistles, or digital controls, that new "HE" machines have.

What are you....the laundry police?

[GGT]

I agree. I mean, it's sort of like those refrigerators that have no doors. Sure, it's convenient...but massively inefficient.

There's a reason fridges have frontal door ice and water options.....every time the door is opened, the appliance has to work a bit harder to keep internal temps constant. I've always considered that a bogus feature, because every time the water dispenser is deployed, it uses extra motor and fan energy (electricity). It's more "efficient" to get a cold glass of water from the faucet than a 'smart' fridge door dispenser.

[Khendraja'aro]

So, in essence, you don't actually have anything or you'd be able to find at least one single complaint to show to us.

Figures.

[GGT]

That's a misuse and abuse of Occam's Razor, Khen.




edit: My decision to buy a top-load, slightly used, older, washing machine is confirmed each time I do laundry.

Just today I used hot water, small load, and pre-soak functions for a few washcloths and bath towels that needed to be bleached. Water was added to the tub, clothes were agitated, and sat...waiting for my input. I looked at the items and decided they needed to soak another 10 minutes or so. I made a judgement based on experience, and didn't find it "efficient" to re-wash those items. They just needed to soak in the tub a bit longer.

I added a couple of lightly soiled dish towels in the meantime. I even dipped a cloth in the tub to wash dirty spots on the W/D, the door jamb, and some spots on the floor, and threw that in, too. Hell, I could have dipped a mop in the wash water and swabbed down the laundry room floor. The tub of water (with detergents and bleaching agents) wasn't "dumped" until I turned the dial, and manually chose another function.

Then I re-set the dials to large, and cold/cold, and added light colored, lightly soiled laundry....giving those towels and washcloths a "heavy duty" second washing without needing a dedicated load, or using "heavy duty" water options for clothes that didn't need it.

This is how I do laundry. This is how I like to do laundry. I consider myself to be a frugal water consumer. I don't appreciate appliance technology that poses as "smart" when it defaults to "dumb".

[Enoch the Red]

That's a misuse and abuse of Occam's Razor, Khen.

Just what do you think Occam's razor is?

[Aimless]

That's a misuse and abuse of Occam's Razor, Khen.

Don't blame khen, the razor clearly has a design flaw

[GGT]

Efficiency is often (but not always) capturing "simplicity" in the crosshairs between technology and convenience and labor, in the modern world...and calling it "convenience".

Drive thru windows might be convenient for the driver, but only in a car-dominated society, with cheap gas subsidies.

I want to wash my own laundry, using the least amount of water or electricity...without some "luxury" tax, or appliance default, that can't distinguish between the two.

[GGT]

Regarding "efficient" use of water...I used to pour really hot soaking bubble baths for my own pleasure...and would wait until the water was tepid to "add" a kid. The water wasn't 'dirty' and we could all get cleaned while bathing, using the same water, in one tub.

When we had extended power outages, which were fairly common, I'd wash plates and cooking pots in used or grey water (ie, the bathtub)...then rinse them in boiling hot water from the stove or fireplace.

I consider myself a water conservationist. I'd never build a swimming pool in my backyard, even though I have the space and resources. I don't water my lawn. I don't belong to a country club that offers golf courses. I just want to wash my laundry with appliances that don't treat me like an idiot. Is that too much to ask? Should I really have to prove my reasoning and rationale to guys like Khen?

[Khendraja'aro]

I just want to wash my laundry with appliances that don't treat me like an idiot.

Simple: Don't be an idiot.

[Lor]

Are you folks actually arguing about laundry and the inner workings of?

[Dreadnaught]

No, it's an argument about morality, ecology and the ability of future generations to not wear shit-stained clothes.

[LittleFuzzy]

Are you folks actually arguing about laundry and the inner workings of?

No, that's just the mechanism for the meta-discussion which appears to be about GGT's habit of making things up.

[GGT]

Are you folks actually arguing about laundry and the inner workings of?

I was arguing about water conservation, and new laundry appliances that actually waste water, despite their "5 star" energy rating.

[Khendraja'aro]

If I'm letting my faucets open for hours I'm also wasting water.

Doesn't mean that it's the fault of the faucets.

[Hazir]

If I'm letting my faucets open for hours I'm also wasting water.

Doesn't mean that it's the fault of the faucets.

After recently having returned to my home with a 4 cm layer of water on my kitchen floor due to an open faucet, I beg to differ.

[Khendraja'aro]

Yes, Hazir, that's exactly what I was talking about.

Then again, you just demonstrated why you need to study law and why lawyers have their very own way of communicating. And why law texts tend to become so long.

[Hazir]

You didn't get that was supposed to be a joke?

[Khendraja'aro]

After the lengthy discussion with GGT, my joke discerning abilities have become somewhat impaired. Sorry.

[GGT]

I still appreciate my used, top-load washing machine over any new machines, including front-loads. I can use the water for multiple purposes without using extra water, or wasting water. I can wash my hands in the fill-water. I can dip a rag or mop in the tub-water. I can use the whole tub of water in ways a front-load machine won't allow. I could even wash a load of clothes, and use the same water to tenderize an octopus before it becomes a meal.

[Khendraja'aro]

Yeeeees. If your goal is to provide an emetic rather than an actual meal, that is.

[Hazir]

That sounded utterly disgusting. I mean; really?

[earthJoker]

Tell me that you are joking GGT, honestly!

[GGT]

I'm not joking.

http://www.ocregister.com/articles/o...salt-says.html

"The chef and owner of the Golden Truffle in Costa Mesa is a longtime octopus advocate. It has been on his menu for more than 20 years. His make-it-tender approach is something between deep-tissue massage and aggressive shiatsu.
Greeley puts the gangly beasts into his octopus-only-no-soap washing machine and runs them through a couple of cycles along with crushed ice, rock salt and a handful of ball bearings. It's a technique he fashioned after a similar method he observed at Milos Restaurant, a Greek eatery in Montreal."


Anticipating/pre-empting replies: my only point is that washing machines are appliances, and the customer is always right.

[GGT]

Another edit: Where do you guys think your "fresh fish" is coming from in the first place? Have you noticed the amount of water contaminants, river/stream/lake and ocean pollutants? Do you really think your "fresh fish" has been swimming and spawning in pristine waters? Really?

[Flixy]

"octopus-only-no-soap washing machine" vs what you said: "use the same water to tenderize an octopus before it becomes a meal."

Gee, I wonder why it sounded disgusting the way you described it.